What do readers really want out of 1st Person?

OpheliaRevived · Jun 3, 2009

I have to "flesh out" parts of my WIP that are sparsely written. There's a line between info dumping and narrative that enriches a character/story. As a reader, I want to know exactly what a character thinks of another character.

What sort of things do YOU as a reader, find the most interesting while reading a book in this POV? Are there certain types of details that you will admit you're guilty of scanning ahead to find? How do you feel about the narrator divulging his first impressions of another character right before speaking/acting something out etc...? Do you care more about what they do or say than what they think?

And I'd like to know, what kind of description does the modern reader care about? Be specific as I'm not the brightest crayon in the box.

Danthia · Jun 3, 2009

I like to know what they think as it pertains to the story. Rambling off on a tangent usually bores me and I'll start skimming. Impressions are good, as they tell me just as much about the POV as what the POV is looking at. I care about what they do and say, but I care more about why they do and say it. Motivation is what pulls me into the story and makes it more than just reading a transcript of a movie--all talk and action, no inside peek. That inside look at another person is compelling, especially if that person has an interesting way of looking at the world, or a sense of humor, etc. (the voice).

I've never been a fan of heavy description no matter what the POV. I don't care if the carpet is green and the walls are blue. But if the green carpet and the blue walls means something more, and the POV gives insight into that, then I want to hear about that. Like if the carpet is green because the owner of the house is an ex-hippie and her husband wouldn't let her put in real grass. And the walls are blue to simulate the sky. That builds characterization and that's interesting. But details for the sake of details? They get boring fast.

blacbird · Jun 3, 2009

Stuff to happen. I detest pages of introspection and internalized interpretation.

caw

Dale Emery · Jun 3, 2009

OpheliaRevived said:
What sort of things do YOU as a reader, find the most interesting while reading a book in this POV?

The character's reactions to people, events, items, settings. Especially the reactions that relate to the character's goals. Even if those things are interesting and meaningful in and of themselves--interesting to me in ways they might not interest the character--I'm most interested in what makes them significant to the character.

How do you feel about the narrator divulging his first impressions of another character right before speaking/acting something out etc...? Do you care more about what they do or say than what they think?

I think I care more about the difference between what they think and what they do. And perhaps to the difference between how they perceive people, settings, events, items and how I perceive them.

And I'd like to know, what kind of description does the modern reader care about?

I don't think there is such a thing as "the modern reader." I care about the details that matter to the character, details that matter in the moment, details that affect what the character thinks, feels, and does.

Dale

OpheliaRevived · Jun 3, 2009

Thanks Dale, and you're so not off topic.

Freelancer · Jun 3, 2009

Presenting something in first person is a challenge, but if you get used to it, it's not that difficult at all. I'm also writing in this style and yes, it can be real hard sometimes (i.e. presenting an epic battle in 1st person through 60 pages.). But I believe it can give a better experience for the reader as you know exactly what motivates the main character.

Dale Emery · Jun 3, 2009

Is first person inherently unreliable?

It suddenly occurs to me that with first person, we don't get a more reliable view of the character's thoughts and feelings. In fact, we get an inherently less reliable view of those things.

With an intimate limited third person, we get the character's thoughts and feelings as reported by the author. The author isn't allowed to lie about those things. If the author says that the character thought something, then the character thought it.

With first person, we get only those feelings and thoughts that the character wants us to know about. The first person narrator always stands between us and what actually happened, filtering the narration through whatever self-image the character wants to project to us. With first person, we get not the events, but the character's self-serving spin on the events.

This may be obvious. It may be wrong. It may be both. But it's a little epiphany for me.

If it's true that first person is inherently unreliable, then perhaps it's best used in cases where that unreliability is a key element of the story. The spin is part of the story. The character's choice of what to report is part of the story. The character's intent to spin is part of the story.

Dale

Jill Leo · Jun 3, 2009

Allow to preface: I am no expert.

My first novel which is now complete and on the desk of agents across the country was originally written in first person but is now in third. I loved the intimacy it gave to the reader. There is no better way for a reader to really become attached to a character than through first person. The reason I abandoned it was the lack of my ability as a writer to show my main character through other peoples' eyes. I am pleased with my final product. As far as first person having an opinion on everything, I agree with the previous comments: only the pertinent informaiton that carries the story forward or explains other players.

No idea if I helped.

blacbird · Jun 3, 2009

Freelancer said:
Presenting something in first person is a challenge, but if you get used to it, it's not that difficult at all. I'm also writing in this style and yes, it can be real hard sometimes (i.e. presenting an epic battle in 1st person through 60 pages.). But I believe it can give a better experience for the reader as you know exactly what motivates the main character.

Ah, but you may not, because the narrator may not really know, or deliberately not reveal, such motivation. Some of the finest first-person literature I know of features flawed narrators who lack, or do not express, real awareness of inner motivations. We readers only discern those through action related in the narration. Dale Emery has expressed this concept pretty well here.

caw

Freelancer · Jun 3, 2009

If you add the mentioned elements into the storyline, it can reveal everything step by step. The question is; are you willing to add it to the storyline or not. As you said, it's always depending from the writer, and not from the POV.

Dale Emery · Jun 3, 2009

If a first-person narrator is perfectly honest with the reader, what is the advantage of first person over a close, limited third person?

For those of you who say that first person is more engaging, but what is it about first person that makes it so?

A thought experiment: Suppose you took a very well-written intimate third-person limited story, and transformed it into first person by changing only the grammar, and only as absolutely necessary to achieve grammatical correctness.

Would that be more engaging? If so, what is it about first person that makes it necessarily more engaging?

If not, how does a good first person narrative differ from a good intimate third-person limited narrative (other than the obvious grammatical changes)?

Dale

sunandshadow · Jun 3, 2009

When I think of excellent first person narrators, the one who spring to my mind are ones that I respected their intelligence and sense of humor, and sympathized with their strong emotions and desired. The mesh between the character's morality and the reader's morality is also important, but as an author one doesn't really have enough knowledge about the audience to worry about customizing the character to them.

I do very much like to see the first person character feeling attracted to another character and thinking about what makes that other character appealing, or feeling fond of other characters and thinking about what is endearing about them. I also like to see a first person character coming up with clever plans (which may go humorously awry), trying to be sneaky and persuasive, and trying to deal with situations that they feel awkward about or are clueless about. I like to see the disparity between the character's inward thoughts and outward acting.

Freelancer · Jun 3, 2009

Sorry, Dale. I mistaken. I just read the whole thread again. I believed the thread maker is asking this question on the following way: presenting the whole story from first person view, as via one character's personal experience and POV and not as a writing technique. This one is confused me a bit. Yes, from your view, third person is the best approach. But you can mix the two as you're presenting everything as if it would be first person, you're presenting everything from the point of view of one character all over, but you're using a third person presentation. I thought for this approach. One character all over the story, one point of view, but third person presentation. In this case I'm also using third person, while I'm presenting everything from one character's POV.

Arkie · Jun 3, 2009

blacbird said:
Stuff to happen. I detest pages of introspection and internalized interpretation.

caw

Exactly. And that's not what I'm getting with Nelson DeMille's 677 page, 1st person opus, "The Gate House." There are several blurbs on the back. The Associated Press says: "A crackerjack of a tale...DeMille is a master at keeping the reader hanging on to see what happens next." Well, not exactly. I hung on for 100 pages and then skimmed on to page 250 not to see not what was going to happen next, but indeed, if anything at all was going to happen, but nothing.

Robert B. Parker is one of the best 1st Person writers I've read. He uses a lot of dialogue, but he keeps hooking you and that's what I like.

Dale Emery · Jun 3, 2009

Freelancer said:
Yes, from your view, third person is the best approach.

I didn't mean to suggest that third person is better. I'm trying to explore in what circumstances first person is better, what the advantages are in those circumstances, and how all of that might help the OP flesh out the story.

Dale

LuckyH · Jun 3, 2009

It's more difficult to hold an audience in the first, if it's a lengthy piece, and I've often wondered why people do it. If it's vanity, then that will reflect in the writing, and it's not attractive.

Freelancer · Jun 3, 2009

Dale. I'd suggest to read Stainless Steel Rat from Harry Harrison. It's a short novel written in first person and I can't imagine that book in third person at all. Maybe the first person presentation is giving the charm and the magic for that one. First person presentation can be good, but it's really depending from the story.

By my opinion if you really want to focus on one character, present less details, want to write quick, but powerful dialogues, want your story to flow fast and you want to make it to a relatively short story (Around 120 pages long novel), first person can be your friend. If you want to present a detailed world, where every detail counts, avoid first person as it's going to kill the flow of the story. But as I written, you can present something from first person, using one character, while you're using third person presentation.

ccv707 · Jun 3, 2009

I'll propose a question to you, OP: Why does it matter what the reader wants out of 1st person? Or your story, for that matter?

Ask yourself what you want out of your story. And the answers will come.

blacbird · Jun 3, 2009

LuckyH said:
It's more difficult to hold an audience in the first, if it's a lengthy piece, and I've often wondered why people do it.

Right. You should ask this question of, oh, say, Mark Twain, Anthony Burgess, Harper Lee, John D. MacDonald, Rex Stout, Barbara Kingsolver, John Irving, Charles Dickens, J.D. Salinger, Philip Roth . . . oh, wait, you can't, some of them are dead, aren't they?

caw

Diana W. · Jun 3, 2009

I'm leaning more towards 1st person narratives these days. In reading anyway. I used to hate them as a teenager though I could never figure out why. I've read a few good 1st person novels lately that have had a lively sense of humour and great voice.

pixydust · Jun 3, 2009

One thing you always have to remember no matter what POV you're in: Everything you show the reader HAS to be important for the story. So, unless it grows the character--main or secondary--then it's not important. Unless it furthers the story--pushing it FORWARD--then it's not important. Stuff happening isn't as important as moving a story forward and making the reader become one with the character.

I always like to use this example cause it's one of my favorites:

Three children lay on the ricks at the water's edge. A dark-haired girl. Two boys, slightly older. This image is caught forever in my memory., like some fragile creature trapped in amber. Myself, my brothers. I remember the way the water rippled as I trailed my fingers across the shinning surface.

"Don't lean over so far Sorcha," Said Padriac. "You might fall in." He was a year older than me and made the most of what little authority that gave him. You could understand it, I suppose. After all , there were six brithers altogether, and five of them were older than he was.

I ignored him, reaching down into the mysterious depths.

"She might fall in, mightn't she, Finbar?"

A long silence. As it stretched out, we both looked at Finbar, who lay on his back, full length on the warm rock. Not sleeping; his eyes reflected the open gray of the autumnal sky. His hair spread out on the rock in a wild black tangle. There was a hole in his sleeve.

"The swans are coming," said Finbar at last.

This is from DAUGHTER OF THE FOREST by Juliet Marillier. Every detail she gives is very important to the characters and their story. It paints an image of who they are and who they are to her.

My 2 cents.

Emily Winslow · Jun 3, 2009

LuckyH said:
It's more difficult to hold an audience in the first, if it's a lengthy piece, and I've often wondered why people do it. If it's vanity, then that will reflect in the writing, and it's not attractive.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why do you think it is "more difficult to hold an audience" in first?

Cyia · Jun 3, 2009

I've found 1st person to be addictive when writing. I avoided it for a long time and now it's my preferred method if there's a clear main character whose POV sets the story. Now I mainly use 3rd for ensemble pieces where there are many sides to the story.

ChaosTitan · Jun 3, 2009

Freelancer said:
If you want to present a detailed world, where every detail counts, avoid first person as it's going to kill the flow of the story.

Not true. I've read a great many first-person urban fantasies in the last few months that are chock full of amazing world building. I have yet to read one in which the world details have killed the flow of the story.

Emily Winslow said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. Why do you think it is "more difficult to hold an audience" in first?

*is also curious about this* How on earth is writing in first person a form of "vanity?"

Matera the Mad · Jun 3, 2009

I want the same thing I want from any story -- a good story that pulls me in and keeps moving, while giving me enough building blocks for my imagination to construct the scenes as I go along.

What I don't want...author-ego intrusion, navel-gazing, self-encapsulation...

What do readers really want out of 1st Person?

Real Men Have Gills

Danthia

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Real Men Have Gills

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Impractical Fantasy Animal

a reader's ear and a writer's heart

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Oh, really?

He who asks, "Why?"

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Mother Flippin' Rhymnosorous

Do Not Walk on the Grass

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