Christians who make mistakes

Deb Kinnard · Jun 3, 2009

I'm seeing a common issue in my writing -- I write stories in which my (Christian) characters make errors in judgment. Frequently. Now, these aren't always life changers such as extramarital relations, committing murder, theft, fraud and the like. These are bad calls, faulty decisions, simple errors that result from lacking sufficient information, wrong motives as yet unseen...this sort of thing.

I've heard repeatedly that this sort of plot-theme can kill a project. My crit partner has issues with my current WIP because two of my (Christian) characters share information they really shouldn't discuss.

I'm like, "Yeah, so? We all make mistakes. I'm impulsive. You're over-analytical. It happens."

I want to keep my "mistake" issues in my books...but I also want them to fly and be well-regarded in our market. I cannot seem to write about characters who are perfect just because they're believers. I'm not sure I want to try.

Any thoughts? Pro or con, both welcome.

pixydust · Jun 3, 2009

I think it's vitally important to make your characters real. Therefore they WILL make mistakes. The important thing in CBA is to make them learn from those mistakes. Perhaps acknowledge them here and there.

I stopped writing for CBA for this reason. I felt like my characters were chained to some invisible wall and I just couldn't enjoy writing, I was so stressed about what I could and couldn't have them do or say. But that's me.

I think if you feel like this is how the character would act then that's what they do. The only line you can't cross is making them unlikable. Make them human, but not annoyingly human.

archerjoe · Jun 3, 2009

Let me tell you, the people in my church group have enough issues to make a soap opera writer blush. Christians are not perfect although they may feel guiltier afterwards. The message of forgiveness is an important one.

CACTUSWENDY · Jun 3, 2009

I agree with what the others have said. We, as Christians, make tons and tons of mistakes. It's what we learn and how we try to stop making them that makes life. I can not write CBA because some of the 'mistakes' may take years to reslove. (Many have in my life.) Best wishes in pulling this off.

As for fiction, I am not sure how pubs. look at it. I know I get tired of reading the ones that make it look like Christians never faulter in thier walks.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 3, 2009

Perhaps you could point out all the people in the BIBLE that made poor choices: Moses, Levi, David, Judas, Peter, well, there are too many to mention. Some of them redeemed themselves, some of them did not and paid the consequences. The Bible is both compelling and real because there is conflict and very few of the "heroes" were ever perfect -- just one that I recall.

pixydust · Jun 3, 2009

Roger J Carlson said:
Perhaps you could point out all the people in the BIBLE that made poor choices: Moses, Levi, David, Judas, Peter, well, there are too many to mention. Some of them redeemed themselves, some of them did not and paid the consequences. The Bible is both compelling and real because there is conflict and very few of the "heroes" were ever perfect -- just one that I recall.

Exactly! And if we were perfect what would we need Him for?

Deb Kinnard · Jun 3, 2009

Well, my problem apparently is that some of my plotlines revolve around such mistakes. Pointing out our favorite error-prone Biblical heroes may not be enough. I've been told I may not sell a romance where the couple gets married for the "wrong" (i.e., unscriptural) reasons. I'm now told I cannot have a plot where the main char. wants to be a missionary but doesn't really want this...she just wants the reputation, the attention, the glory, but doesn't know that's her true motivation until close to the end of the book.

Aargh! I don't know what to DO with these people! Their stories seem to want to play out this way, and although I have them redeemed by the end of the story, folks are telling me I cannot take them on this journey! If I sound fusstrated...good. That's where I am right now.

I may end by feeling rebellious and telling the story I want to tell, my way. And then not selling that book. I have several finished novels I could sell but for this -- one of them my agent will not pitch to editors because of the marriage of convenience error the characters make. Yet if I take it out, there's virtually no plot and I end up with a 20 page novel.

Going back to the laundry now. It seems more profitable.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 3, 2009

Deb Kinnard said:
Well, my problem apparently is that some of my plotlines revolve around such mistakes. Pointing out our favorite error-prone Biblical heroes may not be enough. I've been told I may not sell a romance where the couple gets married for the "wrong" (i.e., unscriptural) reasons. I'm now told I cannot have a plot where the main char. wants to be a missionary but doesn't really want this...she just wants the reputation, the attention, the glory, but doesn't know that's her true motivation until close to the end of the book.

Aargh! I don't know what to DO with these people! Their stories seem to want to play out this way, and although I have them redeemed by the end of the story, folks are telling me I cannot take them on this journey! If I sound fusstrated...good. That's where I am right now.

I may end by feeling rebellious and telling the story I want to tell, my way. And then not selling that book. I have several finished novels I could sell but for this -- one of them my agent will not pitch to editors because of the marriage of convenience error the characters make. Yet if I take it out, there's virtually no plot and I end up with a 20 page novel.

Going back to the laundry now. It seems more profitable.

I don't know what to tell you. If agents and editors are telling you that the story you want to write is unsaleable, you can either not write it or try to sell it to a secular market. Have you tried approaching another agent about it?

Deb Kinnard · Jun 3, 2009

Not yet. I'm not done with this book, in any case, so it's not ready for another agent. I'm hoping, since my current agent (whom I like and respect) tells me there's no large-press market for the finished piece, to sell it small-press.

Sigh. The small presses seem to love my stuff. So far I haven't pitched a single project to a s.p. that I haven't sold. It's getting the larger market to feel the love...

Looks as though I might be headed for rewrite-ville, though.

blacbird · Jun 3, 2009

Deb Kinnard said:
I'm seeing a common issue in my writing -- I write stories in which my (Christian) characters make errors in judgment. Frequently. Now, these aren't always life changers such as extramarital relations, committing murder, theft, fraud and the like. These are bad calls, faulty decisions, simple errors that result from lacking sufficient information, wrong motives as yet unseen...this sort of thing.

I've heard repeatedly that this sort of plot-theme can kill a project.

Are you trying to say that the Christian fiction market requires Christian characters who never make mistakes? Who are perfect, 24/7? Who would ever want to read any book, regardless of genre, populated by such characters?

caw

Calla Lily · Jun 3, 2009

blacbird, you'd be surprised. Not all Christian fic is like that, certainly, but much of it is amazingly wholesome. And it has a large readership. That includes Brandilyn Collins' books, which are suspense, yet barely rate a PG. (Deb, I haven't read your work, so the above doesn't apply to you.

)

Reason #347 why I stopped trying to get an agent or get pubbed in the CBA market.

TracyR · Jun 3, 2009

I'm agreeing with what the others are saying about not being perfect. I think some of the CBA publishers are finally figuring that out.

I think that if the mistakes and choices of your character are "in character" and believable and real, they will be accepted as part of the story, and probably not even questioned. But if the actions are out of character, and seem contrived for sake of story or conflict, then they might be questioned.

From some of the examples you've mentioned - your book would probably fit into some markets, and definitely not into others. (I know that Heartsong and Love Inspired are very strict about many issues like marriage and even choice of words. I was told that using the word "gosh" is a no-no for one market, and yet other publishers actually allow "real" curse words.

)

So, maybe it's just a matter of which publisher you're targeting, rather than all of CBA?

Deb Kinnard · Jun 3, 2009

blacbird said:
Are you trying to say that the Christian fiction market requires Christian characters who never make mistakes? Who are perfect, 24/7? Who would ever want to read any book, regardless of genre, populated by such characters?

Not at all. I'm not saying that, just that MINE don't seem to be acceptable.

But since you ask, I once read a CBA romance whose entire conflict seemed to be centered around whether to play guitar versus organ music in church. Truly. I wallbanged it once I realized that was as heavy-duty as it was gonna get. Some folks may have loved its gentler take on life, but man! this is the 21st century. I like to write things that have a LITTLE more angst inherent in them, please...

But leave that for now. I'm saying there are certain mistakes our characters may not make. They can commit murder (someone referenced B. Collins, whose work I do not read), but they'd better not smoke, drink, cuss or chew, or go with girls who do. I'm only half serious here, but if my agent say she cannot sell a book where the main characters get married for less-than-scriptural reasons--here be dragons, and I'm not sure how to slay them.

Deb Kinnard · Jun 3, 2009

TracyR said:
So, maybe it's just a matter of which publisher you're targeting, rather than all of CBA?

I'm not targeting CBA specifically. I would never limit a book's scope that way. I'd love to sell in a larger market than small press, but for some of us, that just doesn't happen. Maybe I'm one. I don't know.

But to hear that a book can't be pitched in a larger market because of thematic elements, all of which get resolved by my characters in a Godly manner by the END of the book...this makes me go cross-eyed. Why can they not undergo a spiritual growth curve? I for one LOVE to read books in our market where the hero and heroine don't make all the right moves for good and Scriptural reasons. Let 'em get dust on their clothes! Let 'em fall and skin their knees once in awhile! Else how do you show amazing Grace?

OK, I'm done ranting now.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 4, 2009

TracyR said:
I'm agreeing with what the others are saying about not being perfect. I think some of the CBA publishers are finally figuring that out.
<snip>
I was told that using the word "gosh" is a no-no for one market, and yet other publishers actually allow "real" curse words. )

So, maybe it's just a matter of which publisher you're targeting, rather than all of CBA?

callalily61 said:
Reason #347 why I stopped trying to get an agent or get pubbed in the CBA market.

Deb Kinnard said:
But to hear that a book can't be pitched in a larger market because of thematic elements, all of which get resolved by my characters in a Godly manner by the END of the book...this makes me go cross-eyed.

There have been contrasting statements in this forum for quite a while. Some say the CBA is stuck in a rut and have stopped writing for the CBA. Others say that the times, they are a changin'. I don't know what to think.

Since I don't actually write "Christian" fiction, it hasn't been a personal issue. However, I've been considering whether my middle-grade SF novel (which does not have a Christian theme, but does have Christian characters and a Christian world-view), might be acceptable to the Christian market.

I noted the following comments by Andy Meisenheimer of Zondervan (surely a conservative Christian publisher) in another thread:

Roger J Carlson said:
Some interesting links by Andy Meisenheimer of Zondervan regarding the state of Contemporary Christian Fiction, particularly Christian Science Fiction and Fantasy.

http://cba-ramblings.blogspot.com/2008/11/guest-blogger-andy-meisenheimer.html

http://mikedellosso.blogspot.com/2007/08/brandylin-collins-talks-to-andy.html

http://specfaith.ritersbloc.com/200...xist-an-interview-with-andy-meisenheimer.aspx

Interesting reading.

which seems to support the propostion that things ARE changing. But I don't know if this is just an isolated case.

christinalbarr · Jun 4, 2009

I think everyone makes mistakes, whether they be big or small. As a Christian, I think it's important that you either write about how they redeem their mistake or show the consequences of their actions so much that they learn what they did was wrong and can grow from it.

If it is a Christian book, it is important that the story helps the reader grow spiritually in some kind of way. It can either be from example or from learning from someone's mistakes.

Robin Bayne · Jun 4, 2009

I totally understand your frustration, but don't see things changing for new or midlist authors. I think the well established ones get more leeway to be different.

It's a shame, though, 'cause being a Christian doesn't make us better.

It just makes us better off.

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot · Jun 4, 2009

Well if this thread reflects the attitude of most major Christian publishers then my manuscript has absolutely no hope to see the light of day.

Deb Kinnard · Jun 4, 2009

Roger J Carlson said:
... which seems to support the propostion that things ARE changing. But I don't know if this is just an isolated case.

I'm thinking both are true. Let me 'splain. What you can do as a multi-published, solidly-in-there CBA author with a track record of sales in a CBA house is one thing. What your agent can pitch to this same house is quite another. Thematic elements I'm told to leave alone are sitting on my local bookshop's shelves as I write this.

Now, this dichotomy is nothing new. I believe, though I can't prove, it probably exists in the larger, non-Christian markets as well. I'm told that ABA houses will sometimes wax enthusiastic about themes in "a second book" that they're not so thrilled about in a first.

What chaps my hide is that these truths are presented as though it's so for EVERYBODY. And this is just disingenuous, because we can all cite books that break this code.

Or maybe it's like the pirate code...more in the nature of guidelines?

Pat~ · Jun 20, 2009

Sorry I missed this thread earlier.

Personally, I'm only interested in reading books about real people I can identify with--other people who also make mistakes. (That's why the Bible is at the top of my reading list.) For me, the whole glorious story of life is about the triumph of God's love and redemption over human weakness or sin.

I despise books that equate Christianity with fakery and sugary perfection. But when your book gets published, Deb, I'll get in line to check it out.

Deb Kinnard · Jun 24, 2009

Thanks, Pat!

To update this, my current (small) publisher is interested in the novel everyone in the CBA rejected. So I have hope. It's not the place I wanted this book to be, but there is Someone who might have other plans for it.

Judg · Jul 4, 2009

Deb, you carefully keep using the passive voice, so we never find out who is doing the telling. Who is telling you that your stories won't fly? Is it the publishers? If that's the case, I want to pull my hair out. Or is it certain publishers? I get the impression, perhaps erroneous, that the romance market tends to be the most restricted.

I personally would welcome Christian books dealing with very real issues and real personal failings and how the characters have to work their way through them. I've heard of pastors who refuse to read Christian fiction because it is too shallow and pat...

I'll confess to not reading much myself, but that was more because the writing quality often had my stomach churning by the end of the first page. That, thankfully, is starting to change, with more Christian authors producing quality prose. As far as storylines go, I haven't read enough to comment on how things are done.

Should be interesting. My protagonist got his wife pregnant before they were married. Mind you, they weren't Christians (hadn't even heard of God), so maybe that will get past the censors.

In their society, it was the marriage that was the radical act.

wannawrite · Jul 4, 2009

Wow. I'm glad I found this thread. I am currently WIPless and was thinking of doing an inspriational romance next. It was going to be a historical about an unconventional Godly woman who was true to her faith and found love despite being ostracized by the traditional religious society of the day. Hm. Maybe I will rethink that effort. Darn. I had already picked out a working title for it, too. Faith, Uncommon. I HATE when you are all set to go on something, and a roadblock appears. *sigh* I also HATE writing something that has no market. Have already spent the past six months banging my head against that doorstop with some of my other works.

Damn.

I even had my opening line...

Pat~ · Jul 4, 2009

Wannawrite, I want to encourage you to write what you feel compelled to write, regardless of 'market'. That's a mouthful for me to say, in that I've struggled myself for 6 months now about the same issue--what I am compelled to write I am almost certain will not likely be met with open arms by my market. But here's the thing...maybe it's the market that needs to change--and how will that ever happen if we keep feeding it the same diet, year after year, decade after decade? With all my writing, what I end up writing may only end up in a drawer in my office, with maybe just my children reading it; but, if I do go ahead and write it, there is also the possibility that it could be received better in a future generation. In any case, if I feel it is something God wants me to write for whatever reason, my reward is in the doing of that.

I guess what I'm saying is, at some point the market just has to cease being your primary consideration as a writer...at least this is what I've finally believed for myself in recent weeks. And, you know, once I let that fear and discouragement go, the creativity and that deep desire to write what I have felt compelled to write this year has suddenly been returning--so much so, that I suddenly got a title and an 'angle' the other day that might even make the subject more readable for my market.

Deb Kinnard · Jul 15, 2009

What Pat said. I don't want ever to give discouragement to any, and it looks as though that's all my rant has managed to do.

Please understand a couple of things: Judg, you're right in that I'm speaking carefully. I don't want to risk shooting myself in the foot by stating, publicly, that Publisher X told my agent they wouldn't take my wrongheaded-marriage book. Why diss anyone by name? Not profitable.

I'm also not into giving the impression that what I'm hearing is the same thing everyone will hear. We all know that isn't the case. What if the agent or publisher loves Plot A and that's what you're pitching to her? What if I wrote Plot A my way, and you wrote it your way? Would these two tellings of the same story hit the agent in exactly the same manner?

They would not. We're NOT interchangeable parts. My kvetch is being treated as though we are. I "cannot" write these things, yet apparently other authors can, and sell their stuff. We all know there are CBA published books with on-page murders in them, and this is apparently okay, but I cannot show my Christian characters figuratively tripping over their own feet. Maybe it's just the way I write it? That jury's still out and I do not know what to anticipate their verdict might be.

Please, let not your hearts be troubled over this, and please don't let my story, or anyone else's, weigh you down. I don't want anyone to refrain from telling--and selling--their stories because of the things I'm experiencing.

Christians who make mistakes

Deb Kinnard

pixydust

Mother Flippin' Rhymnosorous

archerjoe

CACTUSWENDY

An old, sappy, and happy one.

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

pixydust

Mother Flippin' Rhymnosorous

Deb Kinnard

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

Deb Kinnard

blacbird

Calla Lily

On hiatus

TracyR

Deb Kinnard

Deb Kinnard

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

christinalbarr

Robin Bayne

~writes for Him~

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

Thanks Bobby!!!

Deb Kinnard

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

Deb Kinnard

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

wannawrite

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

Deb Kinnard