Conflict over Conflict

I think most women need to at least connect with a character to keep reading. And since everyone on the planet has at least one internal conflict to deal with (and so do relationships, or everyone would get along with everyone else all the time - boring!), a story with no internal conflicts would feel contrived and unbelievable to me.

As far as a "black moment" as described in the blog post - I don't think it has to be a "do or die" proposition, but in the progression of any normal relationship (even one where two people get along very well), I think there's always at least one defining moment where people learn something new about themselves or the other person...they experience growth in some way that almost always affects the way things go from that point forward. It doesn't have to be big and dramatic, or even really "angsty"...but I think it does have to be there for the story to be believable (and not get boring).

Just my opinion, of course - I get bored if my characters get too comfortable, so I tend to put them through all sorts of angst, but that's just to keep *me* interested in what I'm writing. I don't necessarily need tons of angst in a story from someone else, but certainly some sort of internal conflict to make me interested enough in them as a person to keep reading.

I think it really depends for me. If the external conflict is gripping and has me enthralled, I could care less what sort of internal conflict a character has... but it wouldn't hurt either... but I do draw the line.

Sometimes, the characters come across as whiny "poor me" types in their struggle and that just turns me off completely. Even with a phenomenal external conflict, I might toss the book... I read to escape my own life... I don't need to read about other peoples problems, got plenty of my own... so... in general.. I prefer small doses of internal conflict. It doesn't apply in all cases, but generally... yeah.

I like internal conflict, so much so that I find it hard to imagine a story without it. Internal conflict doesn't have to be angsty. Any time you get two people together with their own separate personalities, there will always be something that causes friction. That's what I like writing about (and reading) -- those rough edges that require compromise and personal growth on everyone's part to make the relationship work.

I include angst in my stuff.

Perfect relationships scare me. We all have our flaws and our misunderstandings. I like a HEA but my characters have to go through the proverbial mill before the get there.

I think that any couple who fall in love, at some moment, that moment they give their heart away and risk all that hurt and pain that is possible once you have given your heart, that is a black enough moment in some stories.

I think we need some conflict to keep it real and interesting. Just like everything else, moderation is important.

Black moments are all right, but some of the books I've read lately seem to feel a need to make the character's life so dismal you wonder how they manage to keep on going. Again, if the story requires it, yes. If it just seems like the thing to do, because it worked the last time, moderation please.

Synonym I think black moments in the book that you speak of quite often work, because the reader wants to see that charachter conqure all that is thrown her way, and I dare say we have all had some very black moments and that is why some times we can associate with those charachters while they are going through their darkest moments.

ETA - Thinking I may have gotten off track because I think it depends on what type of romance you are writing. Some readers don't want to read about black moments, they want to read to escape.

cooeedownunder said:

I think that any couple who fall in love, at some moment, that moment they give their heart away and risk all that hurt and pain that is possible once you have given your heart, that is a black enough moment in some stories.

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Oh boy, sorry about that. I wasn't replying to your comment. I must have been composing my profound thoughts (yeah, right) while your comment posted and I did not see it. The black moments I meant seem to involve lots of blood, mayhem and a death or two. That kind of cosmic-black moment is what I was whining about. Nearly every book in a series seems to be that way (that I've read lately). I am beginning to make it a game to figure out which semi-important character is going to be eliminated before I start reading.

No need to be sorry...I didn't take your comment as a response to my comment, but I responded to your comment. lol

Cheers.

I think the main point is that readers rarely experience the I've-got-to-turn-the-page tension without tension of some sort. A good read is one where I know the couple is going to be tested before they get to their HEA. That kernel of doubt is what keeps me reading after midnight. How the author accomplishes that is another story.

I think it's about balance and believability along with reader preferences. Some readers want to see the h/h take on the world, some want to get lost in another person's inner world and don't want to read about the villain's evil plot.

External conflict can create internal ones so that the separation isn't always so distinct, imo. A deep inner conflict really draws me in. I become more invested in wanting a happy outcome for a character who's struggle with their inner demons.

Sometimes though, too much inner conflict can wear me down, especially if it seems like the character is so wrapped up in what's going on inside them that they come off weak, needing another to "fix" for them, and self-absorbed. After a while, I just want to shout enough already!

To me the black moment doesn't have to be a catastrophic event, it just has to bring the obstacles to a head so there's some new understanding gained that will build a foundation for the HEA. It could be something totally innocuous that sparks a tumbling out of unresolved issues.

Cathy C, tell us more why you think a "black moment" should be and how yours differ in such a way that you don't consider them to be, well, "black moments".

Thanks for posting the link. It touched on some issues I sensed my first story missed ( like the ticking clock).

I prefer a novel to have both internal and external conflict because having only one gets boring after a while, it's best to take turns between the two. I also generally prefer more comedy and adventure kinds of conflict. Angst in the melodramatic sense of a character feeling lonely or alienated can be good because it gives the other character a chance to comfort and rescue them. But I don't want to see tragedy, horror, the serious possibility that developed characters might die, or (stab me with a rusty spoon) dirty politics. Give me characters in disguise, matchmaking plots gone comically awry, a supposed captive convincing their captor to treat them as an equal and a lover, and solving magical puzzles please.

Although I usually have plenty of external conflict going on in my works, I always have internal conflicts too. I think it's good for the characters to have internal conflict about their loved one and I like to take my readers through it with the characters too. I was actually told that my characters' inner conflicts were where my strongest writing came to the fore.

IMO, a good external conflict usually incorporates elements of internal conflict.

Sometimes I think the whole 'black moment' card is over played so that pages and pages of emotional angst only add up to contrived melodrama that doesn't ring true.

When the internal and external are properly married, you may get a few 'gray' moments rather than a single 'black moment' but for me that's more satisfying.

Cathy C said:

. . . our books ARE in romance, but much of the conflict is external. I always have at least one internal conflict, but often there's no "black moment" that so many talk about. I'm interested to know what you guys think about the concept of a romance that occurs without the angst of a deep conflict.

Like? Dislike? Haven't a clue what I'm talking about?

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I have to admit, I am a sucker for soul-sucking internal conflict in a romance.

That being said, some books are more "action" oriented than others. To some degree, I think it depends on what expectations you set up. Cathy - I've read your books, and you are obviously selling well. When I see your name, I expect there to be a lot of external stuff going on. Nothing wrong with that. I do think tension between the protags only serves to enhance the book overall. Everybody is going to have their own preferences as to what the mix should be, that's why we don't all like exactly the same books.

The one gripe I have had about books that blend action/romance (big personal preference here) - I hate when one is solved way earlier than the other. It makes the last part of the book seem really unbalanced to me. So, I'm reading along action-romance-action-romance-action-action-romance-romance-etc. Then, all of a sudden, one half of the plot is completely resolved and we're limping along for another 150 pages with only half the tension.

When one of them does something so very horrible to the other, and it appears they will never get back together.

This is something I've been mulling over for weeks. Mostly, I've been analyzing what I like to read and write and seeing how they fit. I don't like traditional/category romance so much as women's fiction preferably with a romance element so maybe this will change things. I like watching the character develop and grow, seeing them sort out their internal stuff, that kind of thing. I have no patience for external conflict just to have external conflict because you have to "show, not tell". I think people forget that showing doesn't mean externalizing everything.

A book I recently read - Mariam Toews, Summer of My Amazing Luck - did that really well. There was the occasional external thing but really, it was just about relationships and how they developed. I loved it. I'm reading a Sophie Kinsella right now - lots of external but it fits the plot and character. The same elements wouldn't have worked in Summer. I also find that lots of external (especially in Chick Lit) can come just shy of slap stick which appeals to me not at all. Or there's a need to have a mystery or action element. If I want an action story, I'll go for action. Things don't need to happen in books about character development - people do, if that makes sense.

Sorry the previous post- and this one too - are in response to the first question.

Here's something else I just thought of after reading some of the comments on that blog. Someone said in romance the conflicts don't exist anymore or are too light. I can really see what they're saying and I think it's why I prefer women's fiction over romance.

First of all - I think external conflict stuff can end up taking the place over character development. This is why people complain of two dimensional characters.

Second -I don't care about HEA with a man/partner. I care about having figured it out and some how grown as a person. With a partner/in a relationship is great but it can take away from the depth of the story (IMO). Tying into that- I don't want it to be a sure thing that she gets the lover/partner/husband/whatever in the end. To me that's like reading the last pages first.

Cathy C said:

Fair enough. A mixed bag of responses. So, on to the next (obvious) question:

What is your FAVORITE kind of "black moment?" What sort of conflict/worry makes your heart go pitty-pat?

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ALL HOPE IS LOST

It's not going to work for some reason. For any of eleventy billion good or not good reasons the MCs feel they will not end up together. She's riding off into the sunset with another guy. He's riding off into the sunset with another guy. They're too stupid to compromise and are determined to hate each other. She's bleeding out after the duel over his honor. The world is coming to an end and the spaceship only picked her up. Whatever. This. Is. The. End. (Only, miraculously, it's not - lol)

A kinder, gentler resolution can be good, too - but I am a sucker for big, fat, tear-jerker of a BM.