Length of YA books - my musings

srose · Jun 1, 2009

I searched around a bit, and didn't see that anything like this has been brought up. I wanted to share my thoughts on why I believe we're (the writers and industry) ripping off YA readers.

When I was a teen (not so far back) I struggled with reading YA fiction. They always felt fraudulent to me. It seemed that authors didn't understand teen behavior or dialogue. I firmly believe this is changing with what I have read recently in my market research. (yay!)

My biggest problem, the biggest misconception out there in my opinion, is that the industry still seems to believe that YA fiction needs to be short. Very short. Too short to honestly develop characters and a story. 40k, 50k... Why is it that kids love Harry Potter and Twilight? It's not just that they are great, imaginative stories... it's that the writers have given the reader time to care. Care about the plot, the characters, the outcome... Look at the word count on those books! Twilight was 120k in the first, and 190k in the last. Harry Potter, a book for kids in elementary school, ran between 80k-190k, each longer than the last!

In writing my book and talking to fellow writers, no one can believe I have agents reading my MS at 140k words. A few agents turned me down saying they wouldn't take a book for YA with more than 90k. I had one tell me that if I could make it 110k, she would consider representation.

Fiction for adults is usually better - and it's not just because of the writing! It's that we, the readers, are given the time to care about every minute detail in these peoples lives. We are given the time to get attached, so when they hurt, we cry, and when they're happy, we're happy.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject of length. Maybe I'm the only one and way off base! Wouldn't be the first time! But it seems to me that the books I enjoy are longer and more involved. Hence why I think series do so well, but that's another story entirely.

MissKris · Jun 1, 2009

I hear your rant, however there is a BIG caveat that doesn't have everything to do with character development. HP and Twi are fantasies. They are novels that exist in a built world and it takes a great deal of verbage to describe those worlds. There are different traditions to talk about, special powers and rules to go over, it goes on and on. That's why - in adult as well as YA - fantasy books are simply longer than other genres.

Contemporary fiction does tend to be shorter, but the author doesn't have all the description and background to worry about the way fantasy writers do. The plots in contemporary tend to focus exclusively on character development and tend to have a smaller cast of characters, as well.

So I don't think that anyone is being cheated here. And I think there is a GREAT DEAL of editing that could have been done to the examples you cited, OP, that would have reduced the word counts and strengthened the stories. I would rather read a great story than a long one. I read Ian McEwan's (the author of Atonement) newest novel, On Chesil Beach, a slim thing that is much shorter than what most adult novels run. But it was beautiful and heart-wrenching and thoughtful. A good writer doesn't always need to use 100k+ words to write a great story.

Sage · Jun 1, 2009

Congrats on your querying success so far. Although if you feel adult fiction is "better" maybe you shouldn't be writing YA?

Rule of thumb for word count is that the novel should be the length it needs to be. If the novel needs to be 35K, so be it. If it needs to be 60K, 110K, 140K then that's the length you need. Writers can make you care about a character in a short story, so the argument that we need another 100K to that story to make us care doesn't really hold water. If it's taking you more than 40K before the reader cares, then you've probably lost most your readers before they get to the extra words. Personally, I'm hoping to care about the MC in the first chapter, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and read on a short time

Furthermore, "every minute detail in these people's lives" really isn't necessary (and I doubt that in a 140K ms, you're showing that either--they aren't brushing their teeth, aren't using the restroom, aren't mapping out every stoplight they stop at on their drive to school, right?). We need the important details in their lives. The ones that pertain to the plot and the character arc.

The reason YA tends to be shorter is that readers of it often expect tighter pacing. Tighter pacing suggests (but does not demand) shorter books. Sure, when you're enjoying a novel, you don't want it to end, and there are readers who express that they wish their favorite books were longer. But keep in mind that publishers are taking a risk on a new author. The book has to be extraordinary to get them to consider a longer book, which is more expensive to publish. If those costs go back to the reader (which it probably will), and the economy's doing poorly, well, you can imagine why publishers might be a little wary of a longer book when there may be a shorter book of equal quality available.

You can't judge the industry based on HP and Twilight. They are exceptions, not rules. Someone saw potential in them and took a risk on them, and it paid off, but someone took a chance on The Notebook (a shorter than usual adult novel, IIRC) and it also paid off. And you have plenty of people who think the longer HP books could have used more editing (and I'm sure Twilight too--in fact, I'll come right out and say that I didn't need every detail of every thought Bella had in Twilight, but then again, I'm not a big fan

).

Anyway, the point is that if you can get agents and editors excited about a longer book, awesome. But your own feedback seems to suggest that the length is still a concern. All things being equal, shorter is more economical for the publishers, and they will let that rule. So it takes a writer who makes things unequal, who makes the publishing world really sit up and take notice to get them to take that risk.

kaitlin008 · Jun 1, 2009

I agree with Kristin & Sage.

To be honest, if agents are telling you they'd rep you or consider you if you cut your writing down or are saying it could be told in less words, then it wouldn't be the worst thing to go through it and think about if some of the scenes don't really need to be there.

A lot of times, the story just doesn't need 100k words. And remember about Harry Potter, that first book was pretty slim compared to the others (it was in the 70-80k word range, if I remember right. Or somewhere around there? Definitely under 100k), but you still got a lot of world building, character building, and a full plot.

I've read some really great adult literature and some really great YA. Both long and short. I think it's about the quality of the book, not the length.

eyeblink · Jun 1, 2009

Some of the best books I've ever read are 70k words and under. One reason I read a lot of YA is that far too many adult novels are overlong. It's not always the author's fault - you try selling a SF novel to a (UK) major publisher that's under 100k, or a fantasy novel that's under 120k and not part of a series of at least three. Unfortunately readers have been educated to expect a degree of padding: the "average" reader (whoever she or he is) sees an 800-page novel and thinks it's better value than two 400-pagers, let alone four 200-pagers. Let alone that the 800-pager could consist of so much waffle.

From your examples, I'd say Twilight (the first one) is much too long, with a plot that virtually disappears for 150 pages in the middle. Certainly Harry Potters 4 and 5 (particularly) could do with proper edits: there's an argument that the film adaptations are the edits the novels should have had. And that comes from someone who enjoyed the novels.

Don't get me wrong: if a novel genuinely needs to be on an epic scale, that's fine, but too many don't justify their length. And there should be a place for the perfect miniature, however unfashionable that makes me sound.

srose · Jun 1, 2009

MissKris said:
I hear your rant, however there is a BIG caveat that doesn't have everything to do with character development. HP and Twi are fantasies. They are novels that exist in a built world and it takes a great deal of verbage to describe those worlds. There are different traditions to talk about, special powers and rules to go over, it goes on and on. That's why - in adult as well as YA - fantasy books are simply longer than other genres.

Contemporary fiction does tend to be shorter, but the author doesn't have all the description and background to worry about the way fantasy writers do. The plots in contemporary tend to focus exclusively on character development and tend to have a smaller cast of characters, as well.

So I don't think that anyone is being cheated here. And I think there is a GREAT DEAL of editing that could have been done to the examples you cited, OP, that would have reduced the word counts and strengthened the stories. I would rather read a great story than a long one. I read Ian McEwan's (the author of Atonement) newest novel, On Chesil Beach, a slim thing that is much shorter than what most adult novels run. But it was beautiful and heart-wrenching and thoughtful. A good writer doesn't always need to use 100k+ words to write a great story.

Thank you so much for this. I believe you're right in the sci-fi/fantasy department, and that is something I hadn't considered. And I 100% agree that I'd rather read a great story than a long one. However, I find I tend to enjoy longer books than shorter ones because I never want the story to end! If I get attached to the characters and the setting, I hate turning to the last page and knowing it is over, and those characters are now gone from my life.

Cheated is a strong word, and one I think I alluded to, so that is my fault. It's just... when I read YA as a teen, they seemed to fall flat. The stories would be great, the idea's phenomenal, and I never felt I really got to know them. I can remember great stories, but not one character in them. I was a big fan of scary stories growing up, and I can remember staying up late with the light on, shaking in my sheets. But I can't remember one character name. Now, what I read, I can tell you everything about main and sub characters along with the story. So what is different? If it's not length and time given to create the attachment, I'm not sure what else it could be.

I'll be happy when a real editor tells me what fat can be cut, because I'm too close to my story to be subjective. I've read my book probably... 20 times - front to cover, not including the nights I'd print the chapter I had just finished and read it over and over. Every event that takes place that is sub-plot, is character building in my eyes. It explains their convictions, and why such decisions are made when it really matters in the end.

Maybe I'm just flat out a fan of length. LOL. Thank you for your post. I love hearing other peoples considerations.

srose · Jun 1, 2009

Sage said:
Congrats on your querying success so far. Although if you feel adult fiction is "better" maybe you shouldn't be writing YA?

Sage, LOVED your post. Just on this note: I prefer stories of HS, and write about them well.

I meant more that, when I read adult fiction I feel more attached to the story personally, as a reader, than when I read YA.

Anyway, the point is that if you can get agents and editors excited about a longer book, awesome. But your own feedback seems to suggest that the length is still a concern. All things being equal, shorter is more economical for the publishers, and they will let that rule. So it takes a writer who makes things unequal, who makes the publishing world really sit up and take notice to get them to take that risk.

My point is not personal - I only used myself as a personal example. My point is that, in my opinion, and from what I've heard talking to HS students (I've had many recommend me their favorite books to read to see what the market is like) - length SHOULD be a non-issue. In my opinion, longer gives me time to love the story more. But that is simply the way I feel, and I was just interested in everyone elses take on length. The YA books I've been reading lately - I am more attracted and attached to the longer ones with an "epic" story, rather than the 40k skinny guys.

I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject. Thank you for your response!

MissKris · Jun 1, 2009

Glad to hoist my opinion around! Lol. I have, without a doubt, noticed that YA novels now are far, far better than the stuff that was available when I was teen (hey - it wasn't that long ago) so that might be part of what you are noticing. I like your comment about not wanting the book to end. It put me in mind of this quote by Paul Sweeny:

'You know you've read a good book when you turn the last page and feel a little as if you have lost a friend.'

And if the book does that, no matter how long, I'm satisfied. Best of luck with your submissions, srose!

srose · Jun 1, 2009

MissKris said:
Glad to hoist my opinion around! Lol. I have, without a doubt, noticed that YA novels now are far, far better than the stuff that was available when I was teen (hey - it wasn't that long ago) so that might be part of what you are noticing. I like your comment about not wanting the book to end. It put me in mind of this quote by Paul Sweeny:

'You know you've read a good book when you turn the last page and feel a little as if you have lost a friend.'

And if the book does that, no matter how long, I'm satisfied. Best of luck with your submissions, srose!

I agree 110% with that quote. It's why I was sobbing when I wrote my last chapter! And it's why I have reread some of my favorite books time and time again - I just can't let my friends go!

Isn't it amazing how much better the YA books have gotten? I hadn't read any for 10 years (until I started writing my own) and I was impressed. I'm not going to name the books I think of when I remember the stuff I read as a girl - but I'm sure you're with me when you think of some of them and just laugh at how inaccurate they were.

I am so glad the publishing industry has smartened up, and started treating YA's as equals.

Thanks again, to you, and everyone. I'm excited to see what others have to say. It's an interesting topic to me, and something I've been debating with my friends for awhile now.

Raisaol · Jun 1, 2009

Wow... That makes me worried about trying to get my YA novel published. At chapter six, it's already at about 20k.

Anyway, you have to update us on anything that happens with your novels. :-D

Repartee · Jun 1, 2009

Sage said:
Rule of thumb for word count is that the novel should be the length it needs to be. If the novel needs to be 35K, so be it. If it needs to be 60K, 110K, 140K then that's the length you need. Writers can make you care about a character in a short story, so the argument that we need another 100K to that story to make us care doesn't really hold water. If it's taking you more than 40K before the reader cares, then you've probably lost most your readers before they get to the extra words. Personally, I'm hoping to care about the MC in the first chapter, though I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and read on a short time.

Ditto, Sage.

My novel is a little over 40k. That is the perfect length for it. It's a crime novel, it's meant to be fast-paced.
And according to my test readers, you connect with the MC by the end of the 15 page prologue, which IMO is very important.
Granted, I don't write YA, but I don't think that word count should matter. The story should. JMO, take it with a few grains of salt

Writerpatty · Jun 1, 2009

My first book is a little over 36,000 words long. It started out at 50,000 words and I edited and tightened. The length works for the contempary framed story that it is. It takes place in about ten hours, but there are many flashbacks. I've had no complaints about the length from first readers. A few who are in the age group that the book is geared towards.

The sequel will be a little longer, but will span a time period of about two years.

The first book is in the hands of a publisher right now, and I'm waiting to hear back about possible publication. The editor, I met in person, didn't bat an eyelash when I told her the length.

I'm no expert, but I believe it's cheaper to print shorter books.

Momento Mori · Jun 2, 2009

srose:
the biggest misconception out there in my opinion, is that the industry still seems to believe that YA fiction needs to be short. Very short. Too short to honestly develop characters and a story. 40k, 50k... Why is it that kids love Harry Potter and Twilight? It's not just that they are great, imaginative stories... it's that the writers have given the reader time to care. Care about the plot, the characters, the outcome... Look at the word count on those books! Twilight was 120k in the first, and 190k in the last. Harry Potter, a book for kids in elementary school, ran between 80k-190k, each longer than the last!

Part of the reason why YA novels tend to be shorter than adult is related to pricing. Longer books are more expensive to print and bind, which means they tend to be more expensive to price. To a certain extent, teenagers are still seen as being 'pocket money' buyers so in the minds of some marketing bods and store buyers (not all, but some) it's going to be harder to sell a 400 page YA novel that's £8.99 than it is to sell a 300 page YA novel for £6.99. In the UK, this is apparently why so many publishers of YA fantasy (which runs to longer books) try to get their books on the 3 for 2 table in stores, because it's perceived as bumping up sales figures (although that in itself is an additional expense for the publisher, so they have to be certain that the book is going to recoup it).

Sadly, money is king in the publishing world.

MM

Leasie · Jun 2, 2009

Raisaol said:
Wow... That makes me worried about trying to get my YA novel published. At chapter six, it's already at about 20k.

Anyway, you have to update us on anything that happens with your novels. :-D

So you have longer chapters. I prefer a book with longer chapters. You could always split those chapters up. I was once told a chapter should be between 2000 and 4000 words, so yours sounds alright so far

History_Chick · Jun 2, 2009

As someone who works with teens I have to say page count is important. Its hard enough to get them to read sometimes. If I give them a novel thats 350 pages they get scared. If its over 350 they have tuned me out. Hell, sometimes its a hard sell at 250.

Some teens enjoy big books and others don't have the time. Nothing is written in stone. Harry Potter is long as is A Great and Terrible Beauty and Twilight. I still have a lot of students who say "nothing over 200 pages."

Good luck.

timewaster · Jun 2, 2009

[ In the UK, this is apparently why so many publishers of YA fantasy (which runs to longer books) try to get their books on the 3 for 2 table in stores, because it's perceived as bumping up sales figures (although that in itself is an additional expense for the publisher, so they have to be certain that the book is going to recoup it).

Everyone wants their books on three for two because it boosts sales figures. Publishing is a nimbers game and a writer's sales history is an important factor in determining whether a store will stock any future books. ( I don't know if they track which books were on promo but I'd be surprised if they didn't) It also is a signal that the publisher is behind the writer and prepared to promote them.

timewaster · Jun 2, 2009

Maybe I'm just flat out a fan of length. LOL. Thank you for your post. I love hearing other peoples considerations.[/quote]

I've read v few books that wouldn't be improved by cutting IMHO - but then I'm very impatient and am irritated by anything that smacks of padding.
It is harder to sell longer books for the YA market certainly in the UK unless the publisher believes you will sell shedloads.
My last ( YA Fantasy)was about 97k but that was about as long as my publisher was prepared to go. They are also HPs publisher so have published longer stuff, they just generally don't.

Length of YA books - my musings

srose

MissKris

Is the random.

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

kaitlin008

Seeing newness all the time

eyeblink

Barbara says hi

srose

srose

MissKris

Is the random.

srose

Raisaol

Rebellious Youth in Training

Repartee

Queen of Hearts

Writerpatty

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned

Leasie

Surrender, Dorothy!

History_Chick

timewaster

present

timewaster

present