Why is it so hard to create a villain?

K. Taylor · May 28, 2009

Coming up with an original Big Bad is so hard for me. If I manage to come up with anything, it just feels "been there, done that".

What do you do to come up with the Big Evil for your heroes to defeat?

My 2 MCs have been thought up and sketched out, but I can't start writing until I have the reason they meet - coming together against the bad guy......it's hella frustrating, as I love these two in my head and can't wait to see them interact.

Are there any original ideas for villains left in the world?

ETA: It's what the villain's going to do that's so evil that I have a hard time with. Once I know the "evil plot", then I can justify motives. And personality isn't that hard, either. I need the objective.

Tallent · May 28, 2009

Aren't villains supposed to be clieche?

Yes, every story has been told. You have to find a different, more interesting way to tell them.

Sage · May 28, 2009

Tallent said:
Aren't villains supposed to be clieche?

Not really.

How'd you come up with your heroes?

If there's a certain "been there, done that" type of villain that fits your story/protags, use him or her. Just put as much effort into thoroughly sketching the villain out as you did the heroes. The heroes, believe it or not, probably have several "been there, done that" elements themselves.

wannawrite · May 28, 2009

Because people always want to humanize them. Give them motivation. Tell a back story. Nobody is comfortable anymore with evil for evil's sake. They have to explain WHY the poor sap went bad.

Back in the day, bad guys were bad guys, and we were all fine with that. We didn't care whether or not they had been breast fed, or if their father spanked them too much. They were bad, that was it, and the good guy got to save the day.

Simplistic, you say? Well, it worked.

DeleyanLee · May 28, 2009

I create villains by thinking in terms of two story-related things.

1. The villain and the hero are two sides of the same moral coin. What moral issues are at play in the conflict? Think about how your hero(es) represent "Good" and how the villain(s) can protray the "Evil". Since you get to define both terms in the scope of the book, it's not as hard as it sounds.

2. If the moral codes were switched, then the villain would become the hero--thus, in their own mind, they're doing the right thing according to their own moral code.

Don't know if that helps you, but it helps me come up with villains who are unique to my story, which is all I need.

K. Taylor · May 28, 2009

Male is a blind vampire that was turned just before he could take vows as a monk, so he tries not to kill people. Female is a mortal paladin working for a secret order for all things good and saving the world.

It's a fantasy adventure romance story.

I can write the character of the villain once I know what he is. It's the what he/she is going to do that needs to be stopped that's so hard.

Sage · May 28, 2009

Sure, bad guys can still be evil for evil's sake. Just have them be more than that. Just like your good guys can be good for good's sake. But I don't want to read about an underdeveloped character in either case.

RichardB · May 28, 2009

The hero and the villain are both exceptional people with opposing goals. The difference is that the reader identifies with the hero, and the villain may resort to immoral acts to achieve his goals.

Therefore, a realistic villain is simply an exceptional person who is willing to do bad things to achieve his ends. Who wakes up and says, "I'm going to be evil today?" So if you think you can create a hero but not a villain, just create a hero and then allow that character to break whatever rules he wants in order to win.

AceTachyon · May 28, 2009

K. Taylor said:
Male is a blind vampire that was turned just before he could take vows as a monk, so he tries not to kill people. Female is a mortal paladin working for a secret order for all things good and saving the world.

Can the villain be the nemesis of either of these two characters? Brings them together with a similar goal.

Maybe the Vampire Lord/Lady who turned the male MC and is planning on opening a hellgate or somesuch to reclaim his/her rightful domain/kingdom/what have you. Female MC is sent to stop him/her.

CACTUSWENDY · May 28, 2009

If your mind was really twisted enough....this would be no problem. I really don't know what to tell ya. Like has already been said....find something with a twist and give it a few more turns. I wish you success.

FOTSGreg · May 28, 2009

Hmmm, Maybe it would be worthwhile to keep in mind that most villains don't really consider themselves to be either villains or evil. They have goals that they want to achieve, but their moral objectivism in regards to how to reach those goals is not in line with what the rest of the world considers "good". They don't see their methods as "evil", simply necessary.

K. Taylor · May 28, 2009

Can the villain be the nemesis of either of these two characters?

Possible. I already have a little on his sire, too, but I'd originally had him kill her in the past. Can easily change that.

Thanks.

geardrops · May 28, 2009

Tallent said:
Aren't villains supposed to be clieche?

No. Christ, no.

RichardB said:
The hero and the villain are both exceptional people with opposing goals. The difference is that the reader identifies with the hero, and the villain may resort to immoral acts to achieve his goals.

This.

When you start villain creation thinking "I need someone to do something evil so my good guy can do good" you're on the wrong track.

Rebekah7 · May 28, 2009

You can create your own moral code for the villain. I have an unused demon character (as in he's not currently in any WIP), and I gave him a specific moral code that I created for demons, that is a part of their culture. It's sort of a modified sociopath, where they feel it's perfectly ok and acceptable to hurt others for their own ends or pleasure, but they will do anything for their immediate family. The villain doesn't have to have the same moral code as everyone else, but it should be developed. That makes them even more frightening than just some guy who twirls his mustache and cackles at inappropriate times.

K_Woods · May 28, 2009

K. Taylor said:
Male is a blind vampire that was turned just before he could take vows as a monk, so he tries not to kill people. Female is a mortal paladin working for a secret order for all things good and saving the world.

They fight crime?

K. Taylor said:
It's a fantasy adventure romance story.

Awwwww.

DeleyanLee said:
2. If the moral codes were switched, then the villain would become the hero--thus, in their own mind, they're doing the right thing according to their own moral code.

RichardB said:
The hero and the villain are both exceptional people with opposing goals. The difference is that the reader identifies with the hero, and the villain may resort to immoral acts to achieve his goals.

Therefore, a realistic villain is simply an exceptional person who is willing to do bad things to achieve his ends. Who wakes up and says, "I'm going to be evil today?" So if you think you can create a hero but not a villain, just create a hero and then allow that character to break whatever rules he wants in order to win.

I just finished listening to a podcast novel called Death by Cliche that played with all of those ideas and then some. The villain of the piece is your stock fantasy Evil Overlord out to destroy the world, until he becomes self aware and starts asking questions. (No, he wasn't before; I'm trying to avoid spoilers.) It's a darkly comic fantasy piece.

Tangentially, there is a place for villains who wake up and say "I'm going to be evil today" -- comedy.

K. Taylor, there are still plenty of ways to make your Big Bad, well, bad while retaining plausible motivations. (See Elantris for a good example.) The question comes down to friction. What makes the (angry) sparks fly when your heroes and villain come into contact? How is your world set up to create such friction? Are they from different nations? Religions that don't get along? Is the villain a robber baron preying upon the hero and his friends? Did the hero accidentally run over the villain's pet dog with a cart as an irresponsible youth, leaving a deep-seated grudge that has festered to this day?

Oookay, maybe not the last one.

Paichka · May 28, 2009

Why not look at famous baddies throughout history, and see what motivated THEM?

Vampires automatically made me think of Vlad Tepes, who did all sorts of amazingly evil things while generally being a thorn in the side of the Ottoman empire. Maybe YOUR big bad has a hatred of the good guys -- and maybe it's a legitimate hatred. Maybe they destroyed his family because they (in combating evil) knew what he was going to become...but they didn't realize their actions would make him what he was. As Ben Wade said in 3:10 to Yuma, "Even bad men love their mommas."

Anyhoo, so your bad guy starts accumulating power to get his revenge...and that power twists him, and he starts doing evil things for evil's sake, not just for revenge. Or something.

Dale Emery · May 28, 2009

K. Taylor said:
Male is a blind vampire that was turned just before he could take vows as a monk, so he tries not to kill people. Female is a mortal paladin working for a secret order for all things good and saving the world.

What's the history of the secret order? What specifically have they saved the world from in the past? Who specifically have they vanquished in the past? Who might bear a grudge about any of that?

What does the vampire want most in the world? What does the paladin want most in the world? What do they together want most in the world? What event would most interfere with their goals?

Who might be upset that the MMC did not complete his vows? Who might be upset that a promising monk-in-training is now a vampire (and therefore, according to their way of thinking, evil)?

Dale

SPMiller · May 28, 2009

K_Woods said:
They fight crime?

lolololol

geardrops · May 28, 2009

Paichka said:
Vampires automatically made me think of Vlad Tepes, who did all sorts of amazingly evil things while generally being a thorn in the side of the Ottoman empire.

Fun fact: Vlad Tepes is celebrated as a hero by the Romanians. (sauce)

STKlingaman · May 28, 2009

My main villain is one of three
heads of government, he manipulates &
intimidates to get what he wants.

I think evil stems from two veins;
someone with power (or someone who
wants it), who then wants more and is
willing to do anything to get it, and someone
who grows into just plain old evil.

Only the level of vile evilness, and
how and to whom the person acts
out their evil ways is in question.

Start with Money and Power, or some
deep childhood trauma that festered
into hate and resentment.

geardrops · May 28, 2009

STKlingaman said:
Start with Money and Power, or some deep childhood trauma that festered into hate and resentment.

This is a common perception and ignores the powerful tool that is moral relativism.

Also, IMHO, it's a bit simplistic.

RavenCorinnCarluk · May 28, 2009

The first idea that came to me when reading the description of your characters was the leader of her sect. He's perhaps so deadset on fighting evil that he no longer sees things in shades of gray, and he's ordering his paladins to kill in the name of their order on flimsier and flimsier pretexts, and with less and less evidence. And she meets the male MC when she's visiting the previous leader, trying to figure out if she should rebel or not.

Kind of a Torquemada type, but with perhaps less power since they're a secret sect.

Sage · May 28, 2009

RavenCorinnCarluk said:
The first idea that came to me when reading the description of your characters was the leader of her sect. He's perhaps so deadset on fighting evil that he no longer sees things in shades of gray, and he's ordering his paladins to kill in the name of their order on flimsier and flimsier pretexts, and with less and less evidence. And she meets the male MC when she's visiting the previous leader, trying to figure out if she should rebel or not.

Kind of a Torquemada type, but with perhaps less power since they're a secret sect.

My first thought was one of the monks gone rogue (probably whoever was closest to the vamp MC before he was turned), having found a darker power to believe in and using it to bring about evil or chaos or whatever needs to be stopped.

But I like yours.

Euan H. · May 28, 2009

How to create a villain:

Step 1) Read this: If I ever become the Evil Overlord

Step 2) Read these: psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder and malignant narcissism and Eichmann and the banality of evil.

Step 3) Frappe.

Ruv Draba · May 28, 2009

K. Taylor said:
What do you do to come up with the Big Evil for your heroes to defeat?

[...]

Are there any original ideas for villains left in the world?

ETA: It's what the villain's going to do that's so evil that I have a hard time with. Once I know the "evil plot", then I can justify motives. And personality isn't that hard, either. I need the objective.

Villains are easier than you might realise, K.T. A very quick way is to take a hero and change its motivation from idealistic to selfish; change its compassion to perversity; make its history a bit shady, a bit wounded and you're pretty much there. E.g.:

Empathic psychiatrist becomes Hannibal Lecter -- a guy who eats his patients.
Carnival clown becomes The Joker -- a guy who kills in parody
Tireless faithful robotic servant becomes The Terminator -- a robot who faithfully and tirelessly tries to kill you.
Sexy one-night stand seductress becomes the gal from Fatal Attraction.
Devoted literary fan becomes the evil biatch from Misery.
Smart, faithful dog becomes Cujo.
Beloved car becomes Christine.
Shy psi prodigy becomes Carrie.
Diligent, humble monks become the cenobites from Hellraiser.
Exotic old-world nobleman becomes Dracula.

A few villains aren't created that way. The monsters from Alien, or Freddy Kruger from A Nightmare on Elm St, or Jason from Friday the 13th, are just created from nightmares. Jaws required exaggeration but not perversification. But if you just want a memorable villain quickly, pick a kind of hero that people don't write about much and then pervert it.

You can make antiheroes in the reverse way too -- take a villain and give it just enough idealism to make it respectable and enough suffering to make it sympathetic.

My WIP has a villain made from a perverted choirboy archetype, and an antihero made from a villainous social-worker whom I brought back to anti-herodom with an idealistic motive and an eating disorder.

Why is it so hard to create a villain?

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