Similarities to other works

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

I'd like to compare my novel to other novels in the same genre. However, I can't think of any such novels, and I would therefore like to take advantage of the combined expertise of the f/sf forum. Please name any novels you can think of that fit (or come close to fitting) the following criteria:

genre - fantasy
setting - secondary world
tone - dark/bleak
scope - personal/narrow
style - concise
protagonist - mundane tending toward antiheroic
ending - bittersweet/unhappy
story - not Campbellian

Thanks in advance.

DarthIggy · May 19, 2009

Not sure if this covers everything, but the first thing that comes to mind is "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" by Stephen R. Donaldson.

The protagonist is dark and brooding, actually, a real jerk. He gets pulled into a fantasy world in which he has unlimited power, but doesn't know how to use it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant,_the_Unbeliever

Etola · May 19, 2009

I second the Thomas Covenant books. Beyond that, I don't know, since I tend not to read a lot of that particular type of story.

My question is, what's your reason for comparing your book to something else? Are you trying to describe it to friends and acquaintances? Are you hoping to draw a comparison in a cover letter to an agent or publisher? Personally, in either case you'd probably do better summing up your story and letting it stand on its own. Comparisons are something that marketers do: "Buy this book! It's like Harry Potter with zombies!"

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

I'm not looking to explicitly mention the comparison in my query. Rather, I intend to use the similar works to better identify my potential audience.

Covenant's a pretty good one! How did I forget about that?

Any others?

sunandshadow · May 19, 2009

Zod Wallop by William Browning Spencer is the first thing that came to mind for me. It doesn't technically take place in a secondary world but the secondary world is leaking into the real world so the setting behaves like a secondary world.

DarthIggy · May 19, 2009

There's also the "Wayfarer Repdemption" books by Sara Douglass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Axis_Trilogy

Though the scope is wider than it is narrow, I think it fits the rest of your criteria. The first trilogy follows a more typical hero/protagonist, but the second trilogy follows his son who is more of an antihero.

Mr Flibble · May 19, 2009

Ahh but Covenant isn't as concise as you lovekin. Heck everyone but Tolkien's concise compared! Besides you need to compare to something more recent really. Or I'd suggest Elric and amybe a few others

I must say I loathed this part - trying to find something similar.

Um, suggestions. Um. I can't think of anything recent. I'll sieve my brain and get back to you.

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

Damn, see, that's the problem I've been having

Just can't think of an exact match.

Either the style isn't right (FWIW, Peake gives Donaldson a run for his money), or the setting isn't really secondary (applies to Covenant as well), or it's an epic/wide-scope story with loads of main characters, or whatever.

Haven't read Zod or Wayfarer. Will look into those.

Mr Flibble · May 19, 2009

I don't think it has to be exact though - depends what you're doing it for I suppose. If it's just for general usage you could say that fans of X and Y ( which together have all the elements, even if individually they miss out on a couple) would like yours?

Kitty Pryde · May 19, 2009

ooh! The Iron Council by China Mieville! Also The Scar and Perdido Street Station, though they have a slightly wider scope I'd say.

K_Woods · May 19, 2009

The Black Company series by Glen Cook comes to mind, but it might not satisfy the secondary world criteria (that means another world "next-door" to the real one, or someone going from our world to another, right?). I think it covers all the other bases, though.

Ruv Draba · May 19, 2009

If you set your own criteria you can easily get whatever answer you want, from "My writing is just like Tolstoy" to "Nobody writes like me".

E.g. Why Ruv's writing is just like Gogol's:

language - native tongue
characters - uninteresting
setting - tawdry
tone - wry
ending - bleak
plot - meandering
drama - banal

If you want a more accurate comparison, I'd suggest posting a log-line, synopsis and opening chapter to SYW.

Kitty Pryde · May 19, 2009

K_Woods said:
The Black Company series by Glen Cook comes to mind, but it might not satisfy the secondary world criteria (that means another world "next-door" to the real one, or someone going from our world to another, right?). I think it covers all the other bases, though.

I thought secondary world meant any world not our own. Like Middle Earth, or the Discworld.

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
If you set your own criteria you can easily get whatever answer you want, from "My writing is just like Tolstoy" to "Nobody writes like me".

E.g. Why Ruv's writing is just like Gogol's:

language - native tongue
characters - uninteresting
setting - tawdry
tone - wry
ending - bleak
plot - meandering
drama - banal

If you want a more accurate comparison, I'd suggest posting a log-line, synopsis and opening chapter to SYW.

Except that my criteria are accurate, and to suggest this is somehow an exercise in futility is ridiculous. But if you were serious about the qualities of your writing, well, good luck.

Anyway, Mieville's in my reading queue. I'll scoot Iron Council closer to the head.

And no, it doesn't have to be an exact match. It'd be nice, though.

Ruv Draba · May 19, 2009

SPMiller said:
Except that my criteria are accurate, and to suggest this is somehow an exercise in futility is ridiculous. But if you were serious about the qualities of your writing, well, good luck.

I have certainly written stories that met the above criteria; many writers do. (Which makes my early attempts at fiction 'in the style of Russian realism', right? :tongue

)

Point is, accurate is neither important nor relevant; a set of six or eight self-chosen criteria is unlikely to peg your work in terms of strengths in craft, potential market or potentially useful inspirations and influences. However, a solid critique of story and writing-style by well-read readers in your genre, will.

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

If you're telling me to get beta readers, yeah, I've already had a number of people read and criticize the full text. I do intend to bug them for their opinions. I don't, however, think it's reasonable to ask random folks to read a query+synop+chapter just to respond to a single question

Hence why I produced a list of attributes instead.

Mr Flibble · May 19, 2009

Maybe you could go with X plus qualifier

ie: Like the Covenant series only with sharper prose, or like the Elric series only with more emotional depth or CJ CHerryh with a bittersweet feel. You get the gist.

And it's driving me bonkers - your writing ( what I've seen of it) reminds me of someone and I'm buggered if I can think who it is.

SPMiller · May 19, 2009

And I already got a response from one beta, who I don't think will mind being quoted. His response begins with, "In all honesty, I can't say I've read a novel that reminded me of yours."

Damn damn damn, I say.

But I'm pretty sure it will find an audience anyway.

Parametric · May 19, 2009

SPMiller said:
genre - fantasy
setting - secondary world
tone - dark/bleak
scope - personal/narrow
style - concise
protagonist - mundane tending toward antiheroic
ending - bittersweet/unhappy
story - not Campbellian

I'm not sure what you mean by personal/narrow in scope. Can it still be an epic fantasy, but one which remains closely centred on the doings of the protagonist(s)?

Richard Morgan's The Steel Remains ticks just about all of your boxes. George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire might be your series - it's certainly dark enough, and though some of its viewpoint characters are heroic/Campbellian in nature, plenty are antiheroic. Joe Abercrombie's The First Law trilogy fits nearly all of the above criteria, imo.

The tricky one is conciseness. Most of the above are big sprawling series writers. The one person I can think of who ticks the conciseness box along with all of the others?

Paul Kearney. This author is my God. He's dark. Bleak. Harrowing. He has unscrupulous, antiheroic characters. His worlds are huge in scope, but hostile and dangerous (iirc the title of one of his books, This Forsaken Earth, stems from the fact that the world is so dark even the gods abandoned it). I am a fiend for really dark stories, and Kearney feeds my need. And the kicker? He packs sheer genius into these tightly written books which are about a third of the size of a fantasy doorstopper.

Go get yourself The Mark of Ran.

Kearney = love and genius and win.

Parametric · May 19, 2009

Still thinking of more, since dark fantasy is my beloved:

* I'm hearing that Brian Ruckley is the new Joe Abercrombie, although I haven't tried him personally, so you might want to check him out.

* Scott Lynch is fairly dark and edgy. His characters are based on the rogue with heart of gold trope, but they do pretty antiheroic things at times.

* R Scott Bakker is writing an incredibly dark series, starting with The Prince of Nothing, based on an evil genius messiah. Sort of. It's complex and sprawling, so won't tick your conciseness box, but you might find it fills your other needs.

badducky · May 19, 2009

*cough* Let's see... Who do I know just like that, SPMiller...?

*cough*

No, no, I'm not in the room. Don't mind me!

Ruv Draba · May 19, 2009

SPMiller said:
I don't, however, think it's reasonable to ask random folks to read a query+synop+chapter just to respond to a single question Hence why I produced a list of attributes instead.

Like some other posters, I found the attributes a bit uninformative. Also, are they the important attributes to the reader, or just the author? (Hence my Gogol example, which was meant to be a joke).

If you have a logline and a line-per-scene synop, posting that might be enough. At a line per scene if you have 75 scenes that's around 1,500 words. If you added a thousand words of the opening, that would give an idea of style and not be a major burden to read.

(In saying that, I realise that I'm saying that setting isn't terribly important, except as it relates to plot and character. I think that's probably true.)

Anyway, I'd certainly look at it and post a view.

If you haven't done a line-per-scene synop before, I'd suggest trying:

In location with motive, character attempts action but encounters opposition. Key event leads to resolution.

Or, for dilemma scenes:

In location with motive, character decides between choice A, B, C... Key event leads to resolution.

Hope there's some use in this.

badducky · May 19, 2009

Attributes are generally uninformative.

Pandora radio is connvinced I will loooove Mandy Moore based attributes of things I like.

I'll be going along fine to Philip Glass, Velvet Underground, Beck, Edvard Grieg, Goldfrapp...

Then... Like a banshee cutting me with raw goo...

MANDYMOORE!

ARGH!

I swear to god, I wish I could black out an entire artist.

(I'm sure Mandy is a lovely person, and lots of people disagree with me about her music, and one of the reasons I include a full list of my usual preferences is to give you a sense of the sheer WTF-ness of snagging Mandy Moore in the middle of what I normally ascribe to. It's like cotton candy halfway through a sushi dinner. But, there are attributes, you see, that mean I might like it...)

SPMiller · May 20, 2009

Pandora does that same shit to me, except with different artists, of course. And they added advertisements! Which is fair, I guess, but still.

K_Woods · May 20, 2009

Okay, I know this is getting off topic, but can't you blacklist an artist by giving two songs thumbs-down ratings, provided you didn't approve any others by that artist? Or did they remove that? (BOOOO if they did -- I don't need washed out gray getting mixed in my station's colors!)

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