Judging your own stuff

Garpy · Jun 15, 2005

I know this is a common enough phenomena....I know I'm not the only writer. But when I go through anything I've written, I feel it reads like a pile of crap. My brother (who also writes and is published) says that's pretty normal, your mind remembers the struggle you went through to write each paragraph.

I've done some 'extra' work om some film sets, and it's a bit like that....in that you see the film being made, how each shot is tediously constructed, how a set sometimes is nothing more than a billboard and a couple of props. So...as a writer, you've seen the work under construction, warts and all, and not the polished, finished item.

I still grimace though, when I read stuff that has been polished, chapters that I've handed out to my beta readers and they've thoroughly enjoyed.

I just wondered, how many of us here suffer from loathing their own work? And is there a way, a technique to viewing one's work more impartially to be able to sensibly judge it's worth? As it is, most of my editing is done is response to my beta reader's feedback....if I had relied on my own feedback, I'd never put pen to paper (or finger to keys)

nb: reading that back, it sounds like i'm all depressed and down. Which I'm not, the WIP is zooming along nicely...but I just hate reading it ;-)

E.G. Gammon · Jun 15, 2005

We are our own worst critic. It's a fact. Don't stress about it. If you aren't happy with something you wrote, keep changing it until you are. But, eventually you'll get to the point where one day you'll pick up a piece of your writing and ask yourself with pride, "Wow, did I really write this?"

scribbler1382 · Jun 15, 2005

I think it's a case of familiarity. Like your analogy of seeing a movie being made, you know all the individual parts too well. Grab one of your favorite books and read the first page about 10 times in a row. Then think about it all day. Then read it a few more times. Maybe type it out. Same thing happens.

This is one of the reasons people suggest you get "distance" from your work after the first draft by putting it in a drawer for a while and forgetting about it.

Julie Worth · Jun 15, 2005

I agree with Marty, distance is the trick. Forgetting is the key. Me, I’m blessed with an particularly poor memory. If I pick up my MS a week later, I’m amazed. Who is this person! What a fine writer I’ve stumbled upon! I don’t envy those writers with good memories. It’s a curse. They can never get enough distance.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 15, 2005

I'm just the opposite. I love everything I write. They are pearls of great price and each word is one of my children...until I get the manuscript back from my beta readers. Once they're pointed out to me, I can see the flaws, but not before. Fortunately, I have patient beta readers.

But I am getting better at self-editing, though it remains a struggle. Perhaps one day I'll actually be as good as I think I am.

maestrowork · Jun 15, 2005

I generally like what I write -- sometimes I even fall in love with my own words. Call me an egomaniac or narcissist. LOL. Of course, there are times when I just can't stand the crap I put on paper.

I do think we all need to eventually "detach" ourselves from our work. Granting, writing is very personal. But once we have sweated and pained and delivered, the baby is a whole different person (even though they're part of us) and we need to let it be.

I am an actor, too, so I know exactly what you mean about filmmaking. And like many actors, I HATE seeing myself on screen. I feel embarrassed telling people the stuff I was in... for example, at a screening about a month or so ago, all I saw were the flaws and "oh Gawd, I am such a bad actor." Because I saw something that wasn't "real" and it was a "performance" -- not real! But everyone else liked the film -- they got into it because the movie looked real to them. It worked well. When I saw it again and let go of my own trepidation, I realized: yeah, it worked!

I think the "we are our own worst critics" can be a good or bad thing, depending on how we deal with it. We can either let it paralyze us, making us feel like frauds (I know I do that sometimes), or mobilize us to improve and work better. Trust your readers. If people keep buying and reading your work, it must not be that bad.

Sarita · Jun 15, 2005

I generally fall into the category of "my own worst critic". I used to have a hard time seeing any good in what I wrote. Last summer, I went back to some old stuff that I hadn't thought of in a while. I forgot that I was the writer and became the reader. I cried at the sadness the character felt. When the tears hit the page, it woke me up. "Oh wow. I wrote this." Ever since then, I've been able to have a more objective view of what I'm writing. I'm still a critic, but maybe not my worst now.

Do you guys find you have a hard time handing your WIP over for the first time to be read by someone else? Excerpt or whole?

azbikergirl · Jun 15, 2005

I've written some passages that I love and some that still make me crack up, but overall I have a looming sense of "is this good enough to publish? what can I do better? do I have what it takes?" I never ever keep anything I dislike.

I post my work on the oww for critique exchange, and I've picked up a "fan" or two -- people who tell me they always enjoy what I write and keep coming back for more. But a number of people seem to not get me. Either I'm too obscure or my stories are just plain odd. One recent comment: "you're making the reader work too hard."
:Shrug:

VOTE_BOT · Jun 15, 2005

Nothing opens one's eyes like reading it aloud.

Sarita · Jun 15, 2005

VOTE_BOT said:
Nothing opens one's eyes like reading it aloud.

I couldn't agree more! That's what I do when I'm critiquing for a friend or *cough* reading the IDOL entries.

Garpy · Jun 15, 2005

Yeah reading aloud certainly helps. And leaving a script to cool for a while also helps. But I have to say, since I started writing more frequently, I've noticed that I'm also far less tolerant of other books. I think since I started writing full time, I've only finished one or two novels, the vast majority get impatiently tossed aside. I think that's partly because now I'm writing...I'm getting to know the tricks of the trade, and of course, when i see them being employed too obviously by another writer, I get to thinking, 'hell...your'e as much a hack as I am.'

brinkett · Jun 15, 2005

Garpy said:
Yeah reading aloud certainly helps. And leaving a script to cool for a while also helps. But I have to say, since I started writing more frequently, I've noticed that I'm also far less tolerant of other books.

I had that problem too, which bummed me out because it prevented me from reading just for pleasure. But I learned to turn off the critic. And it taught me the valuable lesson that readers are generally more forgiving of "bad" writing than writers are, as long as the story and characters are good. There are a couple of authors I read religiously that would get crucified if they were to share their work here, but I keep going back for more because I'm into their characters.

Julie Worth · Jun 15, 2005

Garpy said:
...But I have to say, since I started writing more frequently, I've noticed that I'm also far less tolerant of other books. I think since I started writing full time, I've only finished one or two novels, the vast majority get impatiently tossed aside...

I agree. It’s harder to get into it because you see all the technical stuff that should be hidden. And then you think, if I keep reading this crap, it’s going to be a bad influence.

Garpy · Jun 15, 2005

Like euchhh...Dan Brown.....achhh, there said it. Need to go and gargle some listerine now.

maestrowork · Jun 15, 2005

Dan Brown is not a very good "writer" but he sure tells an interesting story...

Anyway, yeah, putting the work aside is a good thing. Also, write a lot and be productive. I mean, once I am working on multiple projects, I don't feel as "personally attached" to an old piece because I have something else (current WIPs) to keep my occupied. I can let go more easily.

Reading it out loud is a good tactic in second, third draft... I also use a computer to read it back to me.

I have trouble handing rough/first draft material to anyone. I did that for a while with my writing group, but I stopped. I told them it was counterproductive for me. The problem is, when I hand out something this rough, I feel stifled -- like I have to perform and impress. I'd rather allow myself to write crap and just keep going. I'd want to give something at least somewhat polished (2nd, 3rd draft) to my readers.

But yes, there's always that "what if I'm no good -- what if I am a fraud" feeling every time I hand something to my readers.

I also am more critical now when I read. It usually takes me a while to get into a book, because I'd start picking on things: POV problems, clunky sentences, etc. But once I get into it, I can let go of the "writer" in me. I become a reader, totally. That's when I can really enjoy a book for what it's worth...

Julie Worth · Jun 15, 2005

maestrowork said:
I also use a computer to read it back to me...

What software do you use?

Niku · Jun 15, 2005

i don't think it matters what we think of our own writing - very few writers have the ability to judge their own material objectively at or around the time of writing it- either you think you stink or you think you're a rose in full bloom and either way, a third party's -any third party 's- reaction, criticism and praise should be sought for a better picture of whether you are a rembrant or a toddler's scrawl.

maestrowork · Jun 15, 2005

Julie Worth said:
What software do you use?

Just Windows (I convert the file into MS Reader, then let the Reader read it). I do have AT&T Natural Voice -- they sound more natural, more like humans (comes with two standard voices: Mike and Crystal, both very pleasant sounding).

kaku · Jun 15, 2005

A good story teller isn’t always a good writer (Dan Brown, comes to mind).

Often, I read things and think to myself, this isn't well written but I still enjoy the story. A good story with strong characterization can stand on its own. It doesn't need perfect prose. You have to ask yourself why you're writing. Is it because you have a story you to tell or are you trying to win a literary prize?

If it's the former, don't be too so critical of yourself. There are good writers out there who intentionally write in a style that, while captivating to their intended audience, isn't necessarily literary perfect.

Thekherham · Jun 15, 2005

I'm currently reading my novel aloud, and it sure is different than if I were reading it quietly. Every mistake, every grammatical error, stands out like a beacon.

Garpy · Jun 15, 2005

I'm not a literary type myself. I enjoy good ol' mass-market trash just like the next fella. However, now that I'm writing, I see books in print making the sort of elementary mistakes, and using cliches that I routinely chastise myself for.

Dan Brown for example (forgive me for using you, Dan...it's just that everyone on the planet has read your stuff...thus, you're very handy as a source of example)...deploys characters that I personally wouldn't dream of using...eg: brilliant and handsome and paper thin.

I suppose the lesson to be learned here is that one can obsess too much over the quality of the writing. Provided the concept is there, and it's written in servicable english, then it seems that's enough to get you in print if you hit the right publisher at the right time.

Nateskate · Jun 15, 2005

When it comes to self-evaluation, I'm not yet at the point where I trust my own judgement, and would rather an impartial perspective.

But this is one of those things where I think it could be one of two things. 1) Being too harsh on ourselves. 2) Not being harsh enough.

When I first wrote the story out, a very good friend, who is bright and a lover of fantasy, asked to read it. She loved it and said, "Send it to a publisher". I already knew it wasn't ready to send to a publisher. Why? I saw some potential, but tons of glaring faults in my writing.

I re-wrote the story, to clean up the big errors, and to flesh it out, giving more detail about eye and hair color...etc. When that was done it was better, but some parts still bothered me. I have to say, it was a good thing, because it forced me to confront my weaknesses as a writer.

I've finally gotten story one to the point where I actually love reading it from beginning to end, and nothing obvious seems wrong with it. And I'm at the point where within weeks I'll be done with book two.

I used to think, "Well, maybe the publisher's editor will help me with the "battle sequence," but realized, "Leave nothing to chance."

It's comforting when you like what you've written. And this is because in so many ways I am my own worst critic, and have been. Others told me it was great, and I thought it was lacking- pre major edits. Now, I think, "If I really like it, being so self-critical, others will."

Garpy · Jun 15, 2005

I've heard the 'reading aloud' technique is quite good for nailing those gremlins. However, it's not something I do myself. My feeling is if it's a book to be read aloud (ie: for children) then it should work when read aloud, otherwise, if it's a book to be read quietly, then it needs to be apparaised by reading it quietly, as a punter would on the train, in bed, on the toilet etc etc.

I have tried the realing-aloud approach, but I find I grossly over punctuated the sentences as I tend to sound like William Shatner when I read it out....putting lots, of portentious pauses, in each, and every, sentence.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 15, 2005

Garpy said:
I've heard the 'reading aloud' technique is quite good for nailing those gremlins. However, it's not something I do myself. My feeling is if it's a book to be read aloud (ie: for children) then it should work when read aloud, otherwise, if it's a book to be read quietly, then it needs to be apparaised by reading it quietly, as a punter would on the train, in bed, on the toilet etc etc.

I have tried the realing-aloud approach, but I find I grossly over punctuated the sentences as I tend to sound like William Shatner when I read it out....putting lots, of portentious pauses, in each, and every, sentence.

I've been thinking about this recently myself. I came to the conclusion that if I'm published and the book is successful enough, I might be able to have an audio book edition made. In that case, it had better read well aloud.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 15, 2005

Because I have so much trouble finding flaws in my own works, I wrote several programs that work with MS Word to highlight errors like passive, over-used, and cliche' words; adverbs; and excessive prepositional phrases. If you're interested, you can find them here:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11653

Judging your own stuff

keyboard monkey

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

What? I have a title?

Moderator In Name Only

Fear the Death Ray

carpe noctem

I really do look like this.

Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein

carpe noctem

keyboard monkey

Elder Scrolls devotee

What? I have a title?

keyboard monkey

Fear the Death Ray

What? I have a title?

Fear the Death Ray

The Alien Writer

keyboard monkey

keyboard monkey

Moderator In Name Only

Moderator In Name Only