When You Know You've Messed Up

gonovelgo · May 15, 2009

What do you do if you're mid-novel and you realise you've messed up? (By 'messed up' I mean something fixable, like 'introduced a character too early' or 'done two scenes in a certain order and then realised afterward they'd work better in the opposite order'.) Are you more likely to go back and make changes before moving on, or do you prefer to plow ahead with the first draft and fix everything on subsequent rewrites?

This is starting to happen to me with my WIP, and I'm definitely one of those people who prefers to edit as I go. Are there any crippling disadvantages to this method that some seasoned writers can warn me about? Or is it purely a matter of taste?

thethinker42 · May 15, 2009

I'll usually go back and fix it, simply because it bugs the hell out of me if I KNOW something is wrong. I also edit as I go...the biggest pitfall to that is that it's easy to get so wrapped up in editing the chapters that are written, you never get around to writing the OTHER chapters.

As long as you have the discipline to keep writing, I see no harm in doing some editing as you go.

gonovelgo · May 15, 2009

That's the way I see it too. My only problem is that I work off of fairly strict daily wordcount targets (usually increasing my total wordcount by about 1,000 words a day, although lately I've been averaging more than that), and deleting a few hundred words that need editing can play havoc with those. Clearly, I'm going to need to revise some part of my regime!

The fantasy author Brandon Sanderson has released one of his books, Warbreaker online for free. What was really interesting about the whole thing is that he also released earlier drafts, so you can read from version '1.0' right up to version '4.2', which I believe is close to what it will look like on the shelves when it's released. I was amazed to discover that the 1.0 version contains entire characters that who apparently vanish later on in the story because he decided to cut them. I know he writes big, chunky fantasy books, but I still don't think I'd be able to hit 150k words knowing that there was a redundant character lurking around at about the 10k mark. It would, as you said, annoy the hell out of me.

thethinker42 · May 15, 2009

gonovelgo said:
That's the way I see it too. My only problem is that I work off of fairly strict daily wordcount targets (usually increasing my total wordcount by about 1,000 words a day, although lately I've been averaging more than that), and deleting a few hundred words that need editing can play havoc with those. Clearly, I'm going to need to revise some part of my regime.

I do the same thing: I have a set word count target every day. In fact, as I'm typing this, I'm taking my "halfway to the daily goal" break (as opposed to the other 749 breaks I take throughout the day).

It's certainly more challenging to reach those goals when I'm also shaving a few hundred words off here and there, but it can also have the opposite effect. I usually ADD when I revise, so my word count creeps up even when I'm just editing. And if I end up chopping a few hundred words, then it has the two-pronged benefit of a) eliminating the crap and b) requiring me to write a few hundred more words to make my goal, thus bringing me that much closer to the end.

Okay...no more break...back to work...

KTC · May 15, 2009

I would say it's personal choice. I never edit as I go. I go in a line from beginning to end...NEVER LOOK BACK. I like to get finished before putting on the editor's cap. For me, writer/editor are two very distinct mindsets. I kill my editor before I start and I dig him up when I'm done and say, "Okay...you can come out now. Do your thing." If I let him live through the first draft writing, I'd never get to the end.

thethinker42 · May 15, 2009

KTC said:
I would say it's personal choice. I never edit as I go. I go in a line from beginning to end...NEVER LOOK BACK. I like to get finished before putting on the editor's cap. For me, writer/editor are two very distinct mindsets. I kill my editor before I start and I dig him up when I'm done and say, "Okay...you can come out now. Do your thing." If I let him live through the first draft writing, I'd never get to the end.

Your editor is a zombie???
:Jaw:

Broadswordbabe · May 15, 2009

I tend to edit as I go, though I'm trying to do less of it - but if I realise something really big is wrong, then I have to change that before I carry on, because it will affect how the rest happens.
At the moment, I'm trying to work on doing so many hours per week, rather than words. Still provides me with a target and allows me to do some editing without worrying so much about wordcount.

Bufty · May 15, 2009

Editing uses the analytical side of the brain and if one seriously edits as one writes it means switching the creative side of the brain off and on - usually results in a confusing state of mind and one ends up tinkering with both editing and writing, instead of concentrating on one or the other.

thethinker42 · May 15, 2009

Bufty said:
Editing uses the analytical side of the brain and if one seriously edits as one writes it means switching the creative side of the brain off and on - usually results in a confusing state of mind and one ends up tinkering with both editing and writing, instead of concentrating on one or the other.

I knew my ADHD was good for something...

ccv707 · May 15, 2009

This happened to me on the last ms I finished. I wanted to tell the story from a single POV, unlike the previous two books in the series, which are told from quite literally dozens of POVs. By the time I got midway, I realized the story needed more POVs in order to make it more objective...something I stress in all my writing. I didn't go back to fix it--I just went through and finished it. Figure I'll go back over the whole thing and mend the problem later on.

vrabinec · May 15, 2009

I just jot some notes down to go back and change what I want, and continue on. Come back later. Who knows how many things you'll be going back to change? Better to go back once.

Eric San Juan · May 15, 2009

I prefer to just forge ahead and get the writing done, avoiding mid-draft revisions. For me, momentum is vital. Getting in that zone and riding it. If I'm pushing forward on a project a pause to tinker with things gets in the way of that momentum and disrupts my flow. So, I prefer to make some quick notes on what I need to revise, then do the revisions later after I've switched to edit and revision mode. Improving or fixing an earlier chapter is worthless to me if I don't have a finished product.

As with so many of these questions there is no right answer, there is only what works for me. That said, I advise people to save that stuff until the end unless they already have a very good handle on their work habits; several finished projects, been consistent over a few years, etc. Otherwise you could doom yourself to cycle of distraction.

NeuroFizz · May 15, 2009

Here is where a balanced look at the work-to-date is needed. I will echo Eric's (and others') maintain-the-momentum mantra as far as microediting and fiddling with wording, sentences, paragraphs, and even some scenes. But if it involves a larger slice of the story, it is obvious, it is easy to fix, and it changes the way current and future scenes have to be set up to follow the story arc (with the change that needs to be made), I find it's best to deal with it now since it could involve alteration of one or a couple of scenes now, but would require re-writes of many more scenes if the whole story is written without this current change. That's the determination that should be made. Can a note in the margin for later tidying suffice, or will the change alter what happens from now on throughout the remaining story? If the former, press on and keep the writing flowing. If the latter, address it now and jump back on newly switched tracks of the story.

scribbler1382 · May 15, 2009

Yeah, just make a note and then continue on as if you did make the change. Who knows if those scenes/characters/magic toads are even going to be in the next draft? Better to get the whole story down than spend time polishing something you're just going to toss, IMO.

Manix · May 15, 2009

I keep a file for "Deleted scenes" in a separate file from my WIP. That way, if I don't like the changes I make, or if the old scene had elements that I really wanted to keep, I can go back and look at it again.

I also keep a file for my "original" rough draft. (Several files, actually--each one updated a little bit more) The original original is full of crappy plots that don't go anywhere, etc, deleted characters and a million other problems, but sometimes I have to go back to revisit something that my updated version is missing.

Maybe I'm anal that way, but sometimes I like to see the crappy original version too, just to remind myself of how much I like the newer version better. I can see the progress I've made, as far as what's working now (that wasn't before) and I can reference back to things that sparked my inspiration in the first place.

vrabinec · May 15, 2009

Manix said:
Maybe I'm anal that way, but sometimes I like to see the crappy original version too, just to remind myself of how much I like the newer version better. I can see the progress I've made, as far as what's working now (that wasn't before) and I can reference back to things that sparked my inspiration in the first place.

Yeah, I do the same thing. It's kinda like the compulsion that makes me look back at my poop in the toilet and marvel at how much I just got rid of.

Lordofthehunt · May 15, 2009

I've never understood the waiting until the end to fix mistakes. It's like baking a cake and forgetting an ingredient. It's a lot easier adding it in while you're still baking than it is to wait until it's done, not to mention how it tastes. I try to write as full of a first draft as possible. I can worry about grammar, punctuation, detail, and the like until afterward, but if there's a flaw in the plot and I'm ignoring it just to put words down, it feels like painting over dirt. I'd rather have my plot shored up than get a daily word count. You may be saving time on the front end, but you're just adding it to the back.

CaroGirl · May 15, 2009

My writer and editor are the same person. I edit while I write and don't get confused or zombie-like, the different parts of my brain don't short-circuit (not from writing and editing at the same time, anyway). I can't move on if I know I've written an ungrammatical sentence. If I know something is wrong early in the ms, I can either make note of it to change in rewrite, or go back and change it and then move on. I'm more likely to do the latter. It depends on what works best for you. That's just what I do and no one has yet seen fit to publish my work, so there you go.

Eric San Juan · May 15, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
But if it involves a larger slice of the story, it is obvious, it is easy to fix, and it changes the way current and future scenes have to be set up to follow the story arc (with the change that needs to be made), I find it's best to deal with it now since it could involve alteration of one or a couple of scenes now, but would require re-writes of many more scenes if the whole story is written without this current change.

I don't see why it would. In those situations you just write the rest of the book as if the change has already been made. If I know character X is gone or event B happened in a different way, I don't need to go back and alter the scene in order to continue writing with those changes in mind. Instead I'll keep moving forward as if I've made the alterations.

That's what I did on the last manuscript I completed. I realized partway through that the relationship between two characters was not what I initially conceived. About 1/3 into the story I made some major revisions to that relationship. But I didn't actually MAKE the revisions, I just made some notes and kept writing. Then when I was done I made the necessary changes. It was easy to do, especially because at that point my endgame was fully fleshed out, finalized in black and white. Had I revised right away that wouldn't have been the case.

See, to me, here's the thing: If you go back and make those changes every time a new approach arises, you might find yourself with five, six, seven chapter twos as you introduce or "discover" new things in the process of writing. In my opinion, it's far more efficient to make those changes when you're certain of where your story and character went over the course of the book.

However, that's just my view. Whatever works for you is the only Right Answer.

Clair Dickson · May 15, 2009

Eric San Juan said:
Originally Posted by NeuroFizz
But if it involves a larger slice of the story, it is obvious, it is easy to fix, and it changes the way current and future scenes have to be set up to follow the story arc (with the change that needs to be made), I find it's best to deal with it now since it could involve alteration of one or a couple of scenes now, but would require re-writes of many more scenes if the whole story is written without this current change.

Click to expand...

I don't see why it would. In those situations you just write the rest of the book as if the change has already been made. If I know character X is gone or event B happened in a different way, I don't need to go back and alter the scene in order to continue writing with those changes in mind. Instead I'll keep moving forward as if I've made the alterations.

It does make a difference for me. While I may know that Character A needs to talk to Character B and learn about plot event F, I don't know what else Character B will have to say. Maybe character B will have information that changes a previously planned event G... I don't know what my characters are going to say and do until I write it, really.

In general, this is another of those situations where it'll really depend on the type of writer you are. If you only know what is written, then it may be better go back and write that important scene so it's recorded. If you can make a note and reasonably believe that you can go back and make that one change without gutting the rest of the story (or if your rewrites include major overhauls of whole plot lines and you don't mind) then do so. I hate rewriting more than I have to. I also only think linearly as I write.

But changing a plot event is way different than tweaking sentences and paragraphs for better wording etc. The latter is an easy place to get trapped in endless rewrites. At some point, you have to press on, even if it's not quite right. If the bones are there, worry about cosmetics later. Write on!

NeuroFizz · May 15, 2009

Eric San Juan said:
I don't see why it would. In those situations you just write the rest of the book as if the change has already been made. If I know character X is gone or event B happened in a different way, I don't need to go back and alter the scene in order to continue writing with those changes in mind. Instead I'll keep moving forward as if I've made the alterations.

It doesn't if the general change is considered, but the details of the change can alter more than just the basic plotting, particularly if a character is dropped or added, or if the change spawns a subplot or alters an existing one. And it depends on if a writer needs to press on to maintain a "momentum" or if that writer can and does investigate in-progress leads while having no problem finishing the project. Some people are linear writers and find it best to go in a straight path. Others can and do successfully write in a less structured way.

See, to me, here's the thing: If you go back and make those changes every time a new approach arises, you might find yourself with five, six, seven chapter twos as you introduce or "discover" new things in the process of writing. In my opinion, it's far more efficient to make those changes when you're certain of where your story and character went over the course of the book.

I didn't suggest to do this on a whim. I suggested if it was deemed to be major enough to significantly alter the remainder of the story, to consider it. In that case, I'll contend it will be more efficient to make the change straight up, and just as your experience may bear out the opposite, my experience suggests this to be the best way to go for my writing. It's a do it now or do it later thing, and it all boils down to personal preference and personal efficiency. For me, I find a major change that fits my limited (rigid) criteria for immediate attention does, in fact, cut out a great deal of subsequent editing work.

Croik · May 15, 2009

When it comes to entire scenes needing to be changed or removed, I try to get that out of the way as soon as I realize there's a problem--it'll just nag me otherwise. In the ms I just finished I at first had one of the important characters introduced in a scene in his own POV separate from the main cast, but after sleeping on it decided I'd rather introduce him from the MC's POV.

Deleting that scene changed the entire first impression you get of that character, and even changed the way *I* looked at him. Thinking on it now, if I had waited until later to make that decision it would have been too late: he would be an entirely different person.

On the other hand, there was one really long scene that I wrote even knowing I might not need it, and that I waited to cut until after I had finished so I could see how it looked as a whole.

So uh...I guess it entirely depends on the author, the story, and the situation! I always go with my gut.

Eric San Juan · May 15, 2009

Fair points, Clair and Neuro.

sadron · May 15, 2009

I noticed it when have written it and thinking over again "its politics!" Aaagh! I try to re write the whole story.

scarletpeaches · May 15, 2009

I leave myself a post it note on the relevant page and carry on writing as if I had already made the correction.

When You Know You've Messed Up

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