Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Such Races

Lucidreamer · May 14, 2009

I love Epic Fantasy and hope to one day finish my books and get them published into the Epic Fantasy genre.

My question is how looked down upon is it to use races such as Elves, Dwarves and so on? I have read on other sites that it is best to make your own races if you plan to make a high fantasy type world. However I am hoping to have my book be of classic fantasy theme. It doesn't really feel right to me to make a Epic Fantasy with out the races we all relate to the genre, such as our elves, dwarves and orcs.

What are all of your thoughts on the topic? Is it safe to use the classic races, or if I want to have a good book do I need to come up with new ones?

Cybernaught · May 14, 2009

Elves, Orcs and such are pretty standard in Fantasy these days. I doubt anyone will even be fazed by it anymore.

Aggy B. · May 14, 2009

I don't think it's a problem to use elves and such.

If you wanted to be more original you could give them names that have more meaning in your fantasy world. Tad Williams called his elves Sidhe in the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy. They were still obviously elves but he drew quite strongly on the Celtic mythology both for language and culture. (At least that's what I remember from reading the books but it's been years so I may be slightly fuzzy in that regard.)

Just a thought.

blacbird · May 14, 2009

Cybernaught said:
Elves, Orcs and such are pretty standard in Fantasy these days. I doubt anyone will even be phased by it anymore.

Certainly not "fazed" (the word you're actually looking for), but quite possibly just plain bored, for the same reason.

My jaw tends to clench anymore every time I run across the word "elf" in a fantasy narrative.

caw

Cybernaught · May 14, 2009

blacbird said:
Certainly not "fazed" (the word you're actually looking for), but quite possibly just plain bored, for the same reason.

My jaw tends to clench anymore every time I run across the word "elf" in a fantasy narrative.

caw

But you're tending to forget the people who read Fantasy simply because they are fond of Elves.

vrabinec · May 14, 2009

blacbird said:
Certainly not "fazed" (the word you're actually looking for), but quite possibly just plain bored, for the same reason.

My jaw tends to clench anymore every time I run across the word "elf" in a fantasy narrative.

caw

I keep an elf in my pocket to scratch my balls when I'm in public and don't want anyone to see me with my hand down my pants. Other than that, I have no use for elves either.

mercs · May 14, 2009

My jaw tends to clench anymore every time I run across the word "elf" in a fantasy narrative.

caw

jaw or beak?

I avoid them if I'm honest. I try to create my own races when I do fantasy. The only exception was my submissions to Inferno, and that was only because it is set in a Warhammer world where these races exist...

The worse thing I find is that we've seen it all with Tolkein and pretty much everyone else since. There's so many possibilities from legends -elves and dwarves are very rare in all the legends, and orcs are rarely featured at all (if ever). Compare that to nymphs, dryads, fauns, centaurs, naiads, spirits, golems and giants that feature almost everywhere.

In my latest effort (near completion now!!!!), I went to great lengths not to mention elves, dwarves and orcs. Not much you can do with them character wise as everyone has a perceived image in their head based upon 60 years worth of conditioning now!

Deleted member 42 · May 14, 2009

Cybernaught said:
Elves, Orcs and such are pretty standard in Fantasy these days. I doubt anyone will even be fazed by it anymore.

You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

Use Trolls; it's what inspired Tolkien's Orcs.

And no one much uses gnomes; they're pretty cool and there's a lot of folklore about them, languishing.

Deleted member 42 · May 14, 2009

I wish people wanting to use Celtic myth would go to recent translations, not the redacted retellings of Squires, Rolleston, and the Yeats' cadre.

Kitty Pryde · May 14, 2009

Lucidreamer said:
I love Epic Fantasy and hope to one day finish my books and get them published into the Epic Fantasy genre.

My question is how looked down upon is it to use races such as Elves, Dwarves and so on? I have read on other sites that it is best to make your own races if you plan to make a high fantasy type world. However I am hoping to have my book be of classic fantasy theme. It doesn't really feel right to me to make a Epic Fantasy with out the races we all relate to the genre, such as our elves, dwarves and orcs.

What are all of your thoughts on the topic? Is it safe to use the classic races, or if I want to have a good book do I need to come up with new ones?

Books with elves and dwarves and orcs sell very well. If you're totally in love with them, write about them. Tolkien influences a zillion writers. Lots of fantasy readers love Tolkien-influenced fantasy. Lots of others don't love it.

The biggest thing I'd keep in mind is that the mere inclusion of elves and dark lords and quests with swords does not a good novel make. Interesting characters, themes, and story are what people really want, whether they appear in a novel that picks over Tolkien's remains or not.

Lucidreamer · May 14, 2009

mercs said:
jaw or beak?

I avoid them if I'm honest. I try to create my own races when I do fantasy. The only exception was my submissions to Inferno, and that was only because it is set in a Warhammer world where these races exist...

The worse thing I find is that we've seen it all with Tolkein and pretty much everyone else since. There's so many possibilities from legends -elves and dwarves are very rare in all the legends, and orcs are rarely featured at all (if ever). Compare that to nymphs, dryads, fauns, centaurs, naiads, spirits, golems and giants that feature almost everywhere.

In my latest effort (near completion now!!!!), I went to great lengths not to mention elves, dwarves and orcs. Not much you can do with them character wise as everyone has a perceived image in their head based upon 60 years worth of conditioning now!

I guess that my problem comes from the fact that I am of Norse decent, and in Norse mythology Elves, Dwarves and Orks were indeed part of their culture. However as mentioned it is so over used by all other writers that maybe it is too over used.

Medievalist said:
You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

Use Trolls; it's what inspired Tolkien's Orcs.

And no one much uses gnomes; they're pretty cool and there's a lot of folklore about them, languishing.

Actually he got Orc from Ork, which was a demon in Tyrol alpine folklore. It was said to live on mountains, Almen, rock holes, or valleys. It warned the noble game of hunters, or was also known to be a savage and bring geisser to the cattle.

I do plan to use Trolls. Fact I plan to use 8 main races, at this time those races being Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Jontar (think ogre) Halflings, Gnomes, Orcs and Trolls. I also plan to have many lesser races in my book, those are just the main races of my book.

Cybernaught · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

Use Trolls; it's what inspired Tolkien's Orcs.

And no one much uses gnomes; they're pretty cool and there's a lot of folklore about them, languishing.

I see Orcs everywhere.

vrabinec · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
Use Trolls; it's what inspired Tolkien's Orcs..

I thought it was goblins? He has trolls.

Deleted member 42 · May 14, 2009

Cybernaught said:
I see Orcs everywhere.

Yes; and I keep getting paid to be an expert witness pointing out that:

1. Tolkien first wrote about them as Trolls.

2. He then decided to use the Anglo-Saxon word orcneas, which in context in the one attestation we have refers to demonic creatures, for his trolls.

3. Orcs have now been trademarked. It is possible to license their use. The litigation re: Hobbits and Orcs is fierce. Avoid it. Use another word.

djf881 · May 14, 2009

I think you should break with convention and focus your novel around a race of bipedal, sentient cats who speak in "I can has cheezburger?" pidgin.

mercs · May 14, 2009

He has trolls (they are in the hobbit and turn to stone). There's even a troll with goblins (not orcs, goblins) in moria...

as for orcs being copywrited, surely impossible. tolkien didn't invent them and they are mainstays in every online game, every table-top game and every fantasy novel...

Kitty Pryde · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

Are you sure? What about Stan Nicholls 'Orc' trilogy? Amazon shows another book called 'Queen of the Orcs' too.

There are also Orcs in Warhammer, D&D, Warcraft, Magic: The Gathering, and other rpgs and video games. How could everybody be using them if Tolkien owns them?

DeadlyAccurate · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

Use Trolls; it's what inspired Tolkien's Orcs.

And no one much uses gnomes; they're pretty cool and there's a lot of folklore about them, languishing.

Dungeons & Dragons, World of Warcraft, and Warhammer use Orcs (or Orks in Warhammer's case). In fact, this wiki article shows many places where orcs are used.

mercs · May 14, 2009

Orks is a trademark (it's sci-fi orcs) of warhammer, the fantasy ones are called orcs and goblins...

Deleted member 42 · May 14, 2009

vrabinec said:
I thought it was goblins? He has trolls.

He alternated between goblins and troll in the early works; you can see this especially in the drafts of the Hobbit. There are mss. pages with one word crossed out, another inserted, and then that crossed out and the first word, or even a third word, used.

But gradually, and very much before the last two drafts of Fellowship, he had worked out a distinction between troll, goblin, and orc, though it is a bit fluid--there are some contradictions which plagued him right up until he died, particularly in terms of the connections between the three.

The point is that if the critter has an existence and name in folklore from pre-1900, it's fair game to use it.

My other point is, if you are going to do epic/heroic fantasy, find a way to make it new.

Much as I love Tolkien, I'm awfully tired of seeing it done badly. Tolkien could do what he did in part because he was a philologist and deeply steeped in primary source materials. Being steeped in Tolkien, Eddings, et al, isn't the same.

Make it yours. Make it new.

And while I'm at it, just stay away from Tam Lin too

Deleted member 42 · May 14, 2009

mercs said:
He has trolls (they are in the hobbit and turn to stone). There's even a troll with goblins (not orcs, goblins) in moria...

as for orcs being copywrited, surely impossible. tolkien didn't invent them and they are mainstays in every online game, every table-top game and every fantasy novel...

Yes, actually, Tolkien did "invent" them.

And no, they are not covered by copyright, but they have been trademarked. The initial trademark was not quite well, thorough, or properly done, but New Line in connection with licensing the toys and models etc. has done thorough due diligence in the assertion and registration. I know Balrog, and Hobbit are also trademarked, as is Nazgul.

You will find Orks, and other spellings. If they use Orcs to describe critters that are demonstrably like Tolkien's, they're either engaging in risky business, or they are licensed.

Lucidreamer · May 14, 2009

mercs said:
Orks is a trademark (it's sci-fi orcs) of warhammer, the fantasy ones are called orcs and goblins...

Ork couldn't be trademarked, is a a mountain demon of Tyrol folklore. Not at all invented warhammer, maybe they have their likeness trademarked, but if I wanted to use a demon race called Orks there is not much they could say about it.

Medievalist said:
Yes, actually, Tolkien did "invent" them.

And no, they are not covered by copyright, but they have been trademarked. The initial trademark was not quite well, thorough, or properly done, but New Line in connection with licensing the toys and models etc. has done thorough due diligence in the assertion and registration. I know Balrog, and Hobbit are also trademarked, as is Nazgul.

You will find Orks, and other spellings. If they use Orcs to describe critters that are demonstrably like Tolkien's, they're either engaging in risky business, or they are licensed.

Cited from Wiki

"Tolkien's influences
See also: Orc

Orc is from Old English orcneas, which appears in the epic poem Beowulf and refers to one of the races who are called the offspring of Cain during the initial description of Grendel ("Þanon untydras ealle onwocon,/eotenas ond ylfe, ond orcneas," ll. 111-112). In a letter of 1954 Tolkien gave orc as "demon" and claimed he used the word because of its "phonetic suitability" - its similarity to various equivalent terms in his Middle-earth languages.[1] In an essay on Elven languages, written in 1954, Tolkien gives meaning of 'orc' as "evil spirit or bogey" and goes on to state that the origin of the Old English word is the Latin name Orcus — god of the underworld.[2]

About the goblins of The Hobbit, Tolkien wrote:

They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition ... especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

blacbird · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
My other point is, if you are going to do epic/heroic fantasy, find a way to make it new.

Make it yours. Make it new.

Couldna said it better.

caw

Cybernaught · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
Yes, actually, Tolkien did "invent" them.

And no, they are not covered by copyright, but they have been trademarked. The initial trademark was not quite well, thorough, or properly done, but New Line in connection with licensing the toys and models etc. has done thorough due diligence in the assertion and registration. I know Balrog, and Hobbit are also trademarked, as is Nazgul.

You will find Orks, and other spellings. If they use Orcs to describe critters that are demonstrably like Tolkien's, they're either engaging in risky business, or they are licensed.

It's not like you see books about Hobbits popping up everywhere, but Orcs are becoming increasingly more popular in Fantasy these days, regardless if they are Trademarked or not. I still wouldn't put them in a book. I think Ogres get the job done just as well as Orcs.

djf881 · May 14, 2009

Medievalist said:
You can't use Orcs; those are exclusively Tolkien's and the estate and New Line will sue your ass.

You're a little confused; if you reproduce the appearance of the orcs designed for the LotR movies, New Line may sue you.

A number of video game and film franchises do have a very distinct character design that can be infringed upon.

You can't own the concept of an orc or an elf. But Dungeons and Dragons or Warcraft might create specific mythologies around their orcs or elves that is proprietary.

Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Such Races

Lucidreamer

Cybernaught

Decker

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

blacbird

Cybernaught

Decker

vrabinec

Dipwad

mercs

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Lucidreamer

Cybernaught

Decker

vrabinec

Dipwad

Deleted member 42

djf881

AW Addict

mercs

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed

mercs

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Lucidreamer

blacbird

Cybernaught

Decker

djf881

AW Addict