Using foreign languages in a fantasy world

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

I don't have much of an idea of the world building thing, but I'm writing an urban fantasy(possibly thriller) where people speak foreign languages. It's in a made up place with the rules of our world set in. Like I might have vampires speak Italian, or werewolves speak french.

I have a character who's programmed to speak many different languages and translate letters from other countries. She can speak german, chinese, french. She can even decipher Braille and binary code.

Is it possible to use the foreign languages in our world, and place them in a fantasy world?

Adam · Apr 27, 2009

So, for instance, you would have a character speaking Italian, but there would be no Italy?

That would bug me if I was reading it, to be honest.

On the other hand, making up a bunch of languages would be a nightmare! I had a hard enough time making up a few phrases, never mind whole swathes of dialogue.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

What about people speaking italian and then name the language "Chicken"?

Cyia · Apr 27, 2009

If you have names for the races in your universe, there's no need to name the languages.

"I do not speak chicken," the werewolf said. He spoke only the native tongue of his people, even in a crowd, so that the vampires in attendance couldn't understand his words.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

Cyia said:
If you have names for the races in your universe, there's no need to name the languages.

"I do not speak chicken," the werewolf said. He spoke only the native tongue of his people, even in a crowd, so that the vampires in attendance couldn't understand his words.

What if Humans spoke english, and there's like a translator there to decipher and interpret what the other guy said. But that translator isn't the main character, which won't understand werewolf tongue. So I can't really follow your method right?

ETA: I get it. Werewolves speak Werewolf.

fringle · Apr 27, 2009

Do you mean all of their lines would be in Italian, or just a few words like in the way Burgess used Russian in A Clockwork Orange? All in Italian might be hard on readers who don't speak Italian.

Cyia · Apr 27, 2009

Well, if there's no translator there, the characters won't be able to speak to each other anyway unless they have a language in common.

ChristineR · Apr 27, 2009

Two questions.

(1) If this isn't the real world, that is, it's a made up planet somewhere, why would vampires speak Italian? Was the original vampire population transported in from Italy? If not, the whole thing doesn't make much sense and will confuse the reader.

(2) If the whole point is that vampires and werewolves can't talk to each other without an interpreter, is there any reason for using a (real) foreign language at all? If the reader understands Italian, he'll understand something that the characters can't; if the reader doesn't understand Italian he'll find out what was said when the translator chimes in. I'm not sure how this situation is desirable, unless you want to draw attention to the fact that the vampires speak Italian and hence must have been originally transported in from Italy.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

I don't really want the reader to understand unless there's an intepreter. If the readers can speak italian, that's fine.

Blue Sky · Apr 27, 2009

How about making the vampires telepathic and the werewolves speaking some kind of growling, grunting, howling language? You would still need an interpreter. Doesn't feel authentic to me for some reason using different human languages. It might work if this is going to be a humorous book.

I've been a professional linguist and love to learn different languages, but I find the extensive use of foreign languages in prose to be irritating. It'll slow your story down and distract the reader. Just an opinion though.

As usual, if it works...

Have you written much of the story? Maybe ask the vampires and werewolves to talk it up. Then you might know, but then they'll have to--

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Rushie · Apr 27, 2009

BlueLucario said:
I don't really want the reader to understand unless there's an intepreter. If the readers can speak italian, that's fine.

If you do that more than one phrase in the whole book, it will turn me off as a reader. I feel like I'm missing something. If it's French, German, Latin or Spanish, I can usually understand it, but it breaks the immersion to have to translate in my head. "Author intrusion" I feel... the author is not only intruding, he is assuming that I understand the language, OR is deliberately presenting information that will remain hidden to me - very annoying. However, if the POV character doesn't speak the language, then it's fair I not understand it either. But if I speak Italian, I will, so your POV is messed up.

In my opinion, I would much rather see, "The vampire said something to Joe in Italian." without telling me what it was if I am not to know, or "The vampire said 'kill him now,' to Joe in Italian. Little did he know I minored in Italian in college."

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

The story has no vampires and werewolves. It's just an example.

It's just that the characters will fly to another area in the continent, a new world, where there are creatures or people speaking another language. They don't know their way around and will have to depend on the people living in that country in order to get anywhere. They don't speak the language, but one of my characters does. So if that character is not with them when they need it, they are screwed.

Rushie · Apr 27, 2009

BlueLucario said:
The story has no vampires and werewolves. It's just an example.

It's just that the characters will fly to another area in the continent, a new world, where there are creatures or people speaking another language. They don't know their way around and will have to depend on the people living in that country in order to get anywhere. They don't speak the language, but one of my characters does. So if that character is not with them when they need it, they are screwed.

I know, my vampire is just an example too. What you describe is fine. As a reader I'd rather read "They were chattering away in (whatever) and Joe (the translator) wasn't there so I could only nod weakly in confusion," than have you write "reiwo wrhjker wjrkel wje" or a real language like Italian. You could even describe the language "It was lilting and musical, reminded me of whales on earth," but if you try to sound it out in letters, "eeeeeeeee, ooooooo," I think you'd lose me. I know this is breaking the rule (

) of "show not tell" but in the case of language, if the showing is too jarring and incomprehensible, it's better to tell. Just my opinion.

ChristineR · Apr 27, 2009

BlueLucario said:
The story has no vampires and werewolves. It's just an example.

It's just that the characters will fly to another area in the continent, a new world, where there are creatures or people speaking another language. They don't know their way around and will have to depend on the people living in that country in order to get anywhere. They don't speak the language, but one of my characters does. So if that character is not with them when they need it, they are screwed.

All this is fine, but if you use actual Italian, people will wonder if the natives of that country were actually teleported in from Italy. As Rushie says, if you put too much indecipherable text in your book, readers will get annoyed. And if there's no in-story reason for it to be a real language, you might as well make up some gobbledygook for the few lines that your readership will tolerate, because most readers won't be able to follow Italian until your translator comes back, and the readers that can follow it will just wind up wondering why these people speak Italian.

Christabel_Roseau · Apr 27, 2009

Every once in a while I will use a phrase or two from say French to aliterate the moment better (especially in fantasy writing.) With the translation immediately following.

"Ne pleurez pas aimé" he whispered, kissing her cheeks. "Do not cry beloved."

You can invent another language (Wolvish, Vampyre etc)... but keep it truly limited in scope... A few key phrases or curses that are better left unsaid in "english" but the impact of which is clear.

Jacquelyne Frank has done an exceptional job of mixing in "foriegn langauges" in her books *ancient demon, ancient vampyre, ancient shadese etc." Again key phrases (that are easy to repeat later if need.)

IMVHO - its best to keep "other languages" to a minimum.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

Christabel_Roseau said:
Every once in a while I will use a phrase or two from say French to aliterate the moment better (especially in fantasy writing.) With the translation immediately following.

"Ne pleurez pas aimé" he whispered, kissing her cheeks. "Do not cry beloved."

You can invent another language (Wolvish, Vampyre etc)... but keep it truly limited in scope... A few key phrases or curses that are better left unsaid in "english" but the impact of which is clear.

.

Um...That's what I'm thinking. Set up some actual foreign languages and call them Wolvish. I'm not sure if that sounded like lazy writing.

RichardB · Apr 27, 2009

Wait-- so the vampires are not speaking Italian but you're going to write their speech as Italian so that the reader knows its incomprehensible-- except that most people will be able to recognize it as Italian even if they can't fully understand it-- sorry, sounds like #languagefail to me. You're going to have to either make up some languages like Tolkien did or find a more clever way of doing this.

And people mock Doctor Who and Star Trek for having universal translators... This is why! Reality is hard.

Dark Angel · Apr 27, 2009

If you substitue a relatively well known language with another relatively well known language in order to bring a foreign, alien if you will, element to your story then you will do it by what you are proposing. Italian? Is that the best you can do expecially in the hyper-globalised age in which we live?

Think Frank Herbet of the DUNE series fame who used and adapted certain Arabic script to refer to Fremen practise and Fremen speak. When the Fremen spoke they spoke in English yet the short sampling of Arabic script created the feel of the Fremen having their own culture, custos and language.

It would be too taxing to create your own language, use created or adapted words sparingly and you may find you have achieved the effect that you were looking for.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

RichardB said:
Wait-- so the vampires are not speaking Italian but you're going to write their speech as Italian so that the reader knows its incomprehensible-- except that most people will be able to recognize it as Italian even if they can't fully understand it-- sorry, sounds like #languagefail to me.

Grr....

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

Dark Angel said:
If you substitue a relatively well known language with another relatively well known language in order to bring a foreign, alien if you will, element to your story then you will do it by what you are proposing. Italian? Is that the best you can do expecially in the hyper-globalised age in which we live?

It doesn't sound lazy, does it?

Juliette Wade · Apr 27, 2009

There are a couple of ways to approach this, BlueLocario. You don't have to go about creating an entirely new language. My thought would be that you should use your point of view characters as much as possible to pass judgment on the language that the others are speaking. If it's incomprehensible to that character, then you can just say so - maybe describe the "feel" of the language or the general auditory impression it gives. If you're using a character who understands that language, then you can say in surrounding text that they're using that language, maybe keep names in the created-language phonology, but keep the content in English since the character understands it. It's possible to use a minimum number of key words in the alien language, backed up by judgments of characters in the surrounding text, to convey the impression of a foreign language without actually trying to use an existing one. Using Italian itself would imply a direct link to Earth. But if you used the general Italian sound system, and made up some words that were not Italian (just sounded a bit like it), that would work fine.

Does that help?

Strongbadia · Apr 27, 2009

you have

to ask yourself what the point of this is. Seems to me you are getting hung up on minutia. Is the fact that they speak a different language central to the plot or their characterization in any way? Does it advance the story?

If the answers are no, then do not get so hung up on it right now. If the language is just another nuance to add some realism or variety to the story in the setting you created, then I do not think it's important.

IceCreamEmpress · Apr 27, 2009

BlueLucario said:
Um...That's what I'm thinking. Set up some actual foreign languages and call them Wolvish. I'm not sure if that sounded like lazy writing.

That sounds like lazy writing. It also sounds like bad writing. It also sounds like writing people won't enjoy reading.

Either make up the language, use English, or don't use the language, but just do the kind of allusion to it that Rushie suggests ("Since he spoke only Wolvish, and I only Human, his explanation didn't help" or whatever).

Think about it. If you were reading a book, wouldn't this annoy you beyond words?

I walked into the room. Varney the Vampyre was waiting for me at our favorite table, swirling a goblet. The thick red liquid clung to the crystal; I prayed that it was a vintage Bordeaux, not--

"Ay, mija! En que piensas? Sabes te quiero, mi amor." Varney's low voice turned the harsh Vampirish syllables into a croon.

Just then, the door banged open. "Also! Ich wusste, dass ich Sie hier finden würde! Wampyr, en Garde!" It was Wolfram the Werewolf, and though I wasn't fluent in Wolvish, I knew that Varney was in trouble.

BlueLucario · Apr 27, 2009

IceCreamEmpress said:
That sounds like lazy writing. It also sounds like bad writing. It also sounds like writing people won't enjoy reading.

Either make up the language, use English, or don't use the language, but just do the kind of allusion to it that Rushie suggests ("Since he spoke only Wolvish, and I only Human, his explanation didn't help" or whatever).

Think about it. If you were reading a book, wouldn't this annoy you beyond words?

I walked into the room. Varney the Vampyre was waiting for me at our favorite table, swirling a goblet. The thick red liquid clung to the crystal; I prayed that it was a vintage Bordeaux, not--

"Ay, mija! En que piensas? Sabes te quiero, mi amor." Varney's low voice turned the harsh Vampirish syllables into a croon.

Just then, the door banged open. "Also! Ich wusste, dass ich Sie hier finden würde! Wampyr, en Garde!" It was Wolfram the Werewolf, and though I wasn't fluent in Wolvish, I knew that Varney was in trouble.

Actually, I saw this on Ludlum's Bourne Identity. It's not a fantasy, but there were languages such as French and German, and I kind of liked it. IT sounded authentic, you know?

ChaosTitan · Apr 27, 2009

BlueLucario said:
Actually, I saw this on Ludlum's Bourne Identity. It's not a fantasy, but there were languages such as French and German, and I kind of liked it. IT sounded authentic, you know?

That's because those books are set in the REAL WORLD where people actually speak French and German. Of course it sounds authentic. Ludlum wasn't pretending those languages were anything but French and German.

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