2 POV's- Chapter Question.

SouthernFriedJulie · Apr 26, 2009

I am wondering about my POVs in my story. I know that using 2 can work as long as separated properly. I plan to do it by chapters, but the story is weighted more towards the one MC.

The book can make it with only one POV, but I know in my heart that the story NEEDS the second POV to really work. I'm using the second POV to break up the main POV, strengthen it, and also to give depth to a supporting charater that my beta's keep yelling at me to write more about.

My question is- How often should I break in with his POV? His view will have a chapter dedicated to it.

When I began Shattered Remains it was a short story with only this character telling a story from his childhood. The story he told is NOT the main plot, but without it and him, the novel has no meaning. Is it ok to only break in occasionally or would staggered chapters be ok?

Maryn · Apr 26, 2009

Personally, for me as a reader it would only work if the secondary POV either bookends the whole, with the first and last chapters only, or has about a third of the work in his POV.

The switch to his POV for only one or two chapters would be jarring and might even seem like the author couldn't find a way to present information without POV change, even though that's not the case, or that she was quite enamored with her secondary character and sought to include him when in reality he deserved his own novel. (Does he?)

Of course, there's no rule. Done well, pretty much anything can work.

Maryn, living proof that done poorly, almost nothing works

SouthernFriedJulie · Apr 26, 2009

Maryn said:
Personally, for me as a reader it would only work if the secondary POV either bookends the whole, with the first and last chapters only, or has about a third of the work in his POV.

The switch to his POV for only one or two chapters would be jarring and might even seem like the author couldn't find a way to present information without POV change, even though that's not the case, or that she was quite enamored with her secondary character and sought to include him when in reality he deserved his own novel. (Does he?)

Of course, there's no rule. Done well, pretty much anything can work.

Maryn, living proof that done poorly, almost nothing works

What I was thinking was every few chapters. I meant each time he broke in, it would be a chapter dedicated to what was going on, on his side.

I can't seem to get the idea straight in my head or how to ask it right. You'd think a writer would be able to present their idea better. Bleh.

job · Apr 26, 2009

So . . . do I have this right?

You want to put most of the story in the POV of the MC. Every once in a while, you want to do a chapter from the POV of the second major character.

I don't see a problem with this.

Technically, you probably want to do one of these 'other guy POV' chapters fairly early on.
This is so your reader doesn't cruise happily through 2/3 of the book and then all of a sudden hit this first POV switch and go, 'Whoa! What was that?'

Technically, you probably don't want to do ten or twelve chapters straight in the MC POV so the reader gets all startled like a jackrabbit when you switch.

But if you are still in the early stages of plotting you don't have to worry about this a lot. Just write what you see. At every point, do the POV that makes sense.

You can always go back and slip in a brief chapter here and there in the secondary character POV if it is needed.
It's no big.

sticklefidds · Apr 26, 2009

The main thing, as Job says, is to establish the two POVs early on. There's no rule that even says it has to be done by chapters. You could have smaller bits of the secondary POV within the MC POV chapters, separated by a line space or a row of asterisks.

Rushie · Apr 26, 2009

Well according to The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing, by Evan Marshall, if your novel is 50,000 words and has 2 POV characters, he suggests 40 scenes total, 24 lead and 16 second. I'm sure this isn't a must, just a guideline.

Izz · Apr 26, 2009

I too don't see an issue with more than one POV. What it really boils down to is whether or not the story needs the extra POV to work. Some stories need three or four or five POVs to properly work. Some only need one.

NatJM · Apr 26, 2009

Rushie said:
Well according to The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing, by Evan Marshall, if your novel is 50,000 words and has 2 POV characters, he suggests 40 scenes total, 24 lead and 16 second. I'm sure this isn't a must, just a guideline.

I find Evan Marshall's book very useful but as Rushie said, this should only be understood as a guideline, or a starting point, not a rule that cannot be broken.

As a ballpark figure, I would say anywhere between one fifth and half of the chapters.

ChaosTitan · Apr 26, 2009

What she said.

job said:
So . . . do I have this right?

You want to put most of the story in the POV of the MC. Every once in a while, you want to do a chapter from the POV of the second major character.

I don't see a problem with this.

Technically, you probably want to do one of these 'other guy POV' chapters fairly early on.
This is so your reader doesn't cruise happily through 2/3 of the book and then all of a sudden hit this first POV switch and go, 'Whoa! What was that?'

Technically, you probably don't want to do ten or twelve chapters straight in the MC POV so the reader gets all startled like a jackrabbit when you switch.

But if you are still in the early stages of plotting you don't have to worry about this a lot. Just write what you see. At every point, do the POV that makes sense.

You can always go back and slip in a brief chapter here and there in the secondary character POV if it is needed.
It's no big.

Cyia · Apr 26, 2009

Without knowing the precise set-up of your book, I can't see a problem with the POV switches. It's all about style - does what you write work the way you write it?

I've seen people do the "chapter break" POV switch, one writer had every chapter from the heroine's POV and closed each one with a journal entry or letter from the hero, and from the excerpt I found of the Time Traveler's Wife, it looks like that author switched at will and just tagged each one Name:[their pov], then Name2:[their POV]

job · Apr 26, 2009

Rushie said:
Well according to The Marshall Plan for Novel Writing, by Evan Marshall, if your novel is 50,000 words and has 2 POV characters, he suggests 40 scenes total, 24 lead and 16 second. I'm sure this isn't a must, just a guideline.

(Not a criticism of you, who merely pass it along.)

This is drivel.

Izz · Apr 26, 2009

job said:
(Not a criticism of you, who merely pass it along.)

This is drivel.

Most 'How to Write Novel' books are, though, aren't they? All about rules and guidelines when they should be helping writers understand the principles of story-telling.

SouthernFriedJulie · Apr 26, 2009

Thank all of you for the insight. If I get brave enough I might just post the first bit in SYW. It has both MCs. I hesitate because there is a ton of edits I need to do, things I know for a fact need to be fixed and I don't want to keep saying 'I know this bit sucks' over and over. :-D

NatJM · Apr 26, 2009

Isaac Espriu said:
Most 'How to Write Novel' books are, though, aren't they? All about rules and guidelines when they should be helping writers understand the principles of story-telling.

The problem is that most people want a method book that will tell them everything - and by most people, I don't mean most writers but most people who think about writing. So this kind of book is marketed at them, and claim to turn anyone into a writer. This is a false claim but it is purely done for marketing reasons, as they wouldn't sell so many books if they targeted them at people who already write.

However, I find Evan Marshall's book very useful, it gets me to ask myself more questions about my stories and develop them further. But do I follow his method blindly? Of course not! Do I skim through useless paragraphs? Of course I do! Do I disagree with and even cringe at some of the things he says? Of course I do!

If you read "how to" books thinking it will teach you everything and turn you into a writer (or whatever it is you are reading about), you're going to be disappointed/wasting your time. However, if you read such books with intelligence, ie questioning what you are reading, doing your own research to confirm or contradict the ideas presented in the book etc, they can be a useful education tool.

Rules provided in such books should be understood within a certain context as a reference, a guideline, a starting point, and not a finishing point.

Izz · Apr 26, 2009

NatJM said:
The problem is that most people want a method book that will tell them everything - and by most people, I don't mean most writers but most people who think about writing.

I see an awful lot of posts on AW where people ask 'what's the rule on this, or what's the rule on that?' And a lot of those people claim to be writers, or to want to be writers.

(note: i am not saying the OP was asking one of these questions. Looked to me like she was asking for a little bit of advice or reassurance that she wasn't doing something horribly wrong, which is entirely different and completely agreeable

)

Yes, there are conventions and guidelines, but there is not a list of rules that someone can magically follow to write a successful novel. If it were just a formula then everybody who could construct a basic sentence would be a novelist. Story is all about principle--the timeless, unchanging principles of what makes a good story. And to be bluntly honest, i think the great majority of books labeled 'How to Write a Novel' are hardly worth the paper they're printed on for the very reason that they mislead new writers into thinking that there is a list of rules they can follow. People see a book in print and think its advice must be good. Otherwise why would it be in print?

This is a bit of a ranting point for me, so i apologize for derailing. And i'm not disagreeing with you particularly, NatJM, just voicing a POV

windyrdg · Apr 26, 2009

Are you two narrators separated by time or place? For me, the seond narrator, or 1st & 3rd POV, has always seemed most appropriate when things are happening that you want the reader to know about, but the MC can't possibly know. That said, these things must have some ultimate impact on the MC or there's no reason for them to be in the book.

What it comes down to is you're the author. If you think that's how it should be, then that's how it should be.

Good Luck

jy'lenn · Apr 26, 2009

I've read several novels where there are seperate POV's, either because it's the good guy versus bad guy or because group a is one place while group b is somewhere else. I've also read a few where the pov changes with one character leaving and you have the second still there with his/her thoughts.

Just make sure it flows smoothly and, if you have to, break it up with chapters. the main thing, I think, is keeping it smooth and easy to read. it CAN be done!!!

ccv707 · Apr 26, 2009

Like one of the previous posters said, there are guidelines to writing, but, in my heart of hearts, I don't believe there are any real RULES to writing any novel. Write it however you want. I might be good, or it might be bad. That is up to the quality of your prose and characterization, among other things. Some of the most revered books were written as experiments with traditional storytelling tropes (Finnegan's Wake and The Dispossessed, for instance). As such, don't think that every two or three chapters you are obligated to switch POVs. You're needlessly restricting your ability to tell the story you want to tell.

While your question has probably been answered by now, I'll suggest you consider your story whenever you change POV. The last three books I've written contain dozens of characters and the story is told from every perspective (to illustrate an objective understanding of the story's events), and in order for something like that to work the way you hope it will, you must tell the story from the POV that is most RELEVANT to the events taking place. An exception can be if you are trying to emphasize an outsider's perspective, or showcase a particular character from the viewpoint of someone else.

SouthernFriedJulie · Apr 26, 2009

windyrdg said:
Are you two narrators separated by time or place? For me, the seond narrator, or 1st & 3rd POV, has always seemed most appropriate when things are happening that you want the reader to know about, but the MC can't possibly know.

Good Luck

Yes!!! The man I am slipping in is integral to everything. His memories, how he feels about the MC, and what he goes through while the MC is having her own issues.

The closest I can think of what I mean is Pet Sematary. But even that isn't a great example. I need to just shut up and write it.

It's worrisome. I've been out of fiction for far too long. Right now it's the same scary in the pit of the tummy feel as when I stopped writing horror and went to freelancing-sent off that first article. Back on the horse so to speak.

jy'lenn · Apr 26, 2009

For me, it's easier to switch POV from main character 1 to main character 2, so writing Warlord's Daughter has been a real task, since I'm attempting to NOT switch POV's. Talk about HARD!!! Especially when there's so many characters that are pretty important! Ah well, that's what makes it challenging, right?

Go for it; write it out and if it doesn't read right, edit it. My fiance' is a script-writer and he pointed out that you don't have to keep the same POV during a battle because it's like when the camera changes from someone else's perspective. so what the heck, right? If it doesn't work, an agent/editor will tell you (hopefully) if it doesn't.

Best of luck with the novel!!!!

witchunter88 · Apr 26, 2009

For me personally, reading books that break POV's every other chapter gets tiresome. Once you immerse yourself in one character's world, you're suddenly wrenched to another character's.

I would be sparing in the POV changes if I were doing it.

NatJM · Apr 27, 2009

I'm reading Brighton Rock at the moment and Graham Greene is a big fan of POV changes. It works well for me as a reader but I think this is because it is obvious from the first sentence - scrap that, from the first few words - whose POV it is and therefore the reader isn't left wondering what's happening. For my own writing, I always start a new POV chapter with the name of the person whose POV it is. I'm not saying you should do this (rules are meant to be broken etc) but I have found this a good way to make sure the reader knows what's going on.

As a reader, when a novel is written in the first person, I find POV changes a bit unsettling. An example of this is Affinity by Sarah Waters. I ended up really liking the story but it took me a while to get into the POV changes and if I hadn't been such a fan of Sarah Waters, I might have stopped reading the book half way through. However, when a book is written in the third person, I get a bit bored without POV changes. I think it has to do with the intimacy you get from 1st person narrative vs 3rd person.

At the end of the day though, this is your novel and not all readers agree on this so you have to do what you feel YOUR story needs

2 POV's- Chapter Question.

SouthernFriedJulie

Hidin' the bodies

Maryn

I Tried

SouthernFriedJulie

Hidin' the bodies

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

sticklefidds

Rushie

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

NatJM

ChaosTitan

Around

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

SouthernFriedJulie

Hidin' the bodies

NatJM

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!

jy'lenn

Chaos is a friend of mine.

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

SouthernFriedJulie

Hidin' the bodies

jy'lenn

Chaos is a friend of mine.

witchunter88

Boom Boom POW

NatJM