Is saying "fantasy alternative history" redundant?

BravoYankee · Apr 18, 2009

Title says it all...

I've ran some searches on here, but couldn't find a real answer to the question. Many have referenced Turtledove in their answers, but the man is my hero and my inspiration, so I don't need anymore references to him.

I ask, because my book is a perfect example of the fine line between the two. It has very fantastical undertones, but once you can accept the plot device that begins the alteration of history, the fantasy element ends there, and the book reads just like a military adventure.

I mean, isn't the fact that history has become "alternative", the definition of fantasy? Isn't asking the mere question, "what if" a fantastical question?

This has been bothering me for awhile now, because I'm never sure how to accurately place my book in a genre for my query letters, not to mention the fact that "fantasy alternative history" just sounds horrible, lol.

Thanks!

PoppysInARow · Apr 18, 2009

No.... Alternate History lead someone to believe that the story you're writing just has something changed in history and you're writing about the events that follow (EG. Hitler won the war, and a story abou the Jews struggling to escape and end his reign.) Where as if you add Fantasy, it lets the reader (Or agent/publisher) know that the story has more of a fantastical edge to it, instead of just a change in history.

Alternate History: Hitler won the war and is destroying the world slowly and your MC must figure out a way to stop him before it's too late.

Fantasy Alternate History: Hitler won the war because he made a deal with the Demon Prince Jytsizu, and your MC is out to break the contract he has with the demon to save his people.

I don't know if that's helpful... you know your book better than anyone else. I don't think it's redundant, but you definately have to decide which category it falls under.

Judg · Apr 18, 2009

For the purposes of querying, I would think that "alternative history" would be just fine. It says everything that an agent needs to know. And any agent who doesn't understand that obviously wouldn't have any feel for the market anyway.

Matera the Mad · Apr 18, 2009

Fantasy can have nothing to do with history, it may be set in a world that is impossible by RL standards. Likewise alternative history can go off in many directions without breaking any laws of physics. But if an alternative timeline includes magical elements, it is -- that awful phrase. I think "alternative history fantasy" sounds better...maybe

Anyway, if it is, that is how I define it.

Liosse de Velishaf · Apr 19, 2009

Matera the Mad said:
Fantasy can have nothing to do with history, it may be set in a world that is impossible by RL standards. Likewise alternative history can go off in many directions without breaking any laws of physics. But if an alternative timeline includes magical elements, it is -- that awful phrase. I think "alternative history fantasy" sounds better...maybe Anyway, if it is, that is how I define it.

I generally agree with Matera. The phrase is awkward, but it is more accurate in its description of the story. Just be glad it's not "science fiction alternative history", which is what describes some SM Sterling books I've read.

Andrhia · Apr 19, 2009

Apologies for being pedantic, but the genre is "alternate history" and not "alternative history." This is one of those subtle things that could get points knocked off your score in a query letter, much like "fictional novel."

I agree with the posters above on the distinction between alternate history vs. fantasy alternate history. The quick and dirty distinction would be: Could it have plausibly turned out the way it does in your book in the real world? If so, it's alternate history. If not, it's fantasy alternate history.

Judg · Apr 19, 2009

*Mumbles to self: "Alternate history. ALTERNATE history." Resolves never to comment again when too tired to think straight.*

BravoYankee · Apr 19, 2009

Hmm... lots to think about. I'm still struggling with how I want it described. I have nothing against fantasy, I just don't want to put that "label" on it when the fantasy element is so negligible, and really only the device which begins the alternate history, but then is pretty much gone.

I'll think on it, but I think Judg is on to something with the query description. Thanks!

Oh, and thanks Andrhia on the clarification that its "alternate" history. I will remember that! lol

DeleyanLee · Apr 19, 2009

Last I heard (and it was a while ago, mind you), Alternate History was a subgenre of SF, not of Fantasy. Turtledove created it when he wrote the first novel where the change was aliens coming down and messing with history, IIRC. It's been a long time since I read the book.

The equivalent for Fantasy is Historical Fantasy, where you have a fantastic element(s) that's reality in history and how that affects the world, etc.

If your non-historical element is fantastic instead of scientific or sciffy, then say Historical Fantasy should be close enough. You just have to get it into the right ballpark with an agent. Once accepted, the agent will repackage the name as necessary.

Good luck.

BravoYankee · Apr 19, 2009

Historical Fantasy might be my best bet, but I suppose that's up to the agents to determine, lol.

Thanks.

Judg · Apr 19, 2009

No, historical fantasy is something quite different. That is a fantasy set in a past time, with supernatural elements added. Guy Gavriel Kay practically invented the genre. Various medieval cultures have been reworked ever so slightly so that he doesn't have to conform to the actual history and can just use the cultures and living conditions for his stories, adding fairies or whatever suits him.

Lian Hearn did much the same thing with her Tales of the Otori, drawing on medieval Japan for inspiration. I heartily recommend both authors, by the way. Topnotch writers, in every way.

Straka · Apr 20, 2009

BravoYankee said:
I mean, isn't the fact that history has become "alternative", the definition of fantasy? Isn't asking the mere question, "what if" a fantastical question?

Making a philosophical argument isn't to your advantage when determining the genre for marketing a book. I would go with set standards.

When looking to market your book to agents I would call it a Alternative History with a fantasy twist.

Straka · Apr 20, 2009

DeleyanLee said:
Last I heard (and it was a while ago, mind you), Alternate History was a subgenre of SF, not of Fantasy. Turtledove created it when he wrote the first novel where the change was aliens coming down and messing with history, IIRC. It's been a long time since I read the book.

It is a sub of SF, but I'm not sure Turtledove created. My impression is he is considered by many to be the "Master" of it. But Phillip K Dick's Man in the High Castle came out years before Turtledove's published works.

Ruv Draba · Apr 20, 2009

Alternate history isn't necessarily fantasy genre. Len Deighton is an author of thrillers for instance, and he brings that style and expertise to bear in SS-GB -- a mystery set in an era where Great Britain is conquered and partially occupied by Nazi Germany.

What makes fantasy fantasy is not its fictional setting but the whimsy in its setting and/or plot. Much alternate history has no whimsy at all, and some has very little.Neil Stephenson's Baroque Cycle novels would be another example -- their most whimsical element is to feature a peripheral character who apparently never ages.

MumblingSage · Apr 20, 2009

What is the specific fantasy element you're using, if I may ask?

Nivarion · Apr 20, 2009

It's not redundant. However, it is awkward to say as has been suggested.
A story line i saw on here fits the description. a little fuzzy but the OP's story was about the south winning the American civil war by using magic, which made it "alternate history fantasy" If they had invented a weapon that was better than anything the north had and had won, it would be just "Alternate history."

timewaster · Apr 20, 2009

I've written a series set in the past, but with magic. In the first book Celts win battles won by the Romans and there is some allusion to the survival of an Emperor who died young in our time line. I would call them fantasy even though the historical detail is accurate.
I've written one book set in an alternate world wihtout magic where the first and second world wars did not happen -I'd call that alternate history.
I don't think anyone much cared what I called them and, as they were all YA. I think they were all marketed as 'Fantasy.'

BravoYankee · Apr 20, 2009

MumblingSage said:
What is the specific fantasy element you're using, if I may ask?

time travel

And "Timewaster" (dunno hot to quote multiple people in one reply, lol) the thing that annoys me about my book (funny, ya) is that the whole time travel thing is, yes, "magical", but no one in the book truly knows that it is. The whole "magical time traveling object" is just the plot device used to get the time travelers to where they are, and is the focus in the sense that they need to find it. There's more to it, of course, but the tone of fantasy from the rest of the book on just isn't there. Everything after that is just action adventure shenanigans.

I'd like to reference Turtledove's "Guns of the South", where time travelers go back to the civil war to give General Lee AK-47s, giving the advantage to the South. This is basically the premise of my novel, at least the way they go back in time. He never describes the means in which they actually time travel, I believe. Wikipedia lists the book as just alternate history.

Should I have just read that from the get go and saved us this forum thread? lol

Is saying "fantasy alternative history" redundant?

BravoYankee

PoppysInARow

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Liosse de Velishaf

Andrhia

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

BravoYankee

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

BravoYankee

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Straka

Bored Fanatic

Straka

Bored Fanatic

Ruv Draba

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

Nivarion

Brony level >9000

timewaster

present

BravoYankee