You all seem like nice people, but... (spinning off into good/bad critique feedback)

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

Okay so I started out with a critique group of people who were all intelligent writers with editing experience, some expertise even, and who were published in some form or another. So I assumed, they will be honest (hopefully not brutal) but I'll learn and my work will be better for it. I did learn a lot but I guess I'm having serious fears about everything I've ever written because each submission I handed over for critique was chopped to shreds and not once--EVER--did anyone tell me any of it sounded interesting, had potential, could really go somewhere, captured their interest, what-have-you.

It was as if all of them either hated it but felt obligated to critique anyway, or just forgot to add anything at all that was positive.

Does everyone here LOVE their own writing so much that they say, 'To heck with everybody, I'm going to keep on writing crap, even if no one else ever reads it?' Without any positive feedback from critiquers, how will I ever know if someone else might like it? (It would be nice to actually sell something some day) If no one says anything positive, does that usually mean it's lame? I really want to know if I'm writing crap, but I don't even know if I'm wasting my time or not. Are critiquers always stoic, pick it apart, poke-it-full-of-holes people, or are their some that read an excerpt for enjoyment?

How do you know?

I'm a bit leary of asking for critique from anybody anymore because I just feel so embarrassed afterward, thinking I had produced something that might be interesting, only to find that it was destined for the trash bin.

jst5150 · Apr 16, 2009

Manix said:
Does everyone here LOVE their own writing so much that they say, 'To heck with everybody, I'm going to keep on writing crap, even if no one else ever reads it?'

There are 15,000 people subscribed here, so, there's probably a crowd that thinks that, yes.

Manix said:
Without any positive feedback from critiquers, how will I ever know if someone else might like it? (It would be nice to actually sell something some day)

Who are you getting to critique it? Are they legitimate, qualified people? There's a checklist of things I want to happen when I have something critted. For once, don't have the same type of people be critiquers. Get a vaiety of them, with varied skills and qualifications.

Manix said:
If no one says anything positive, does that usually mean it's lame? I really want to know if I'm writing crap, but I don't even know if I'm wasting my time or not.

See above on who you get to critique. If you're choosing beta readers as carefully as you might choose to buy a home or car, then maybe.

Manix said:
Are critiquers always stoic, pick it apart, poke-it-full-of-holes people, or are their some that read an excerpt for enjoyment? How do you know?

You ask them. Again, the point of getting folks to read your stuff is gauge opinion on the material. The more who read it of different ilks, the better. You know because you screen the beta readers. That doesn;t mean you pick people who are going to like them. Just pick people who are different. And reward them when done.

Manix said:
I'm a bit leary of asking for critique from anybody anymore because I just feel so embarrassed afterward, thinking I had produced something that might be interesting, only to find that it was destined for the trash bin.

Get past that. Keep writing. Keep getting critiqued. Move forward, not back.

sassandgroove · Apr 16, 2009

Welcome to AW. It may be that these people don't understand the point of a critique group and think a critique is to only point out bad things. We have a section here at AW to share your work. YOu may want to post a something there. In my experience here people tried to be helpful and say what they liked along with making suggestions. It could be that the group you were in just wasn't a goodmatch for you?

you can find the share your work section here. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26
the password is vista. read the Main Board (start here) part first. Also it is a good idea to crit some other people to if you are asking for a crit. If you think you don't have anything to offer - well - guess what, you do. I assume you like to read. Look at it as a reader and tell the writer what you think. it can be line by line, or just a few sentences giving an overall impression.

Good luck. I hope you'll stick around AW, lots of good info and good people here.

maestrowork · Apr 16, 2009

OK, two ways of looking at this:

- the pat on the back is nice. We all need encouragement. Personally, I like to offer some positives with the negatives when I critique, even if the work is IMO utter crap. I think at least the person needs to commended for doing the work and putting thoughts into it. I also believe in positive reinforcement. However, critiques are not about group hugs and false praises. That's the job for your mother or spouse.

- I believe in honest, constructive criticism. How else are we going to learn and improve if everything is rosy? It took me a while (I wasn't a good listener sometimes when it came to criticism) but I eventually got it. Some of the best advices I got came as harsh criticism. But they jolted me to realize the fundamental flaws of my work (they are, however, never personal attacks) and only helped me to make it better. So those are the advice I listen.

It doesn't mean you should listen to everything. Critiques are, after all, personal opinions unless we get into technical analysis and critique -- those can get quite objective.

You need to have thick skin, but you also shouldn't take every advice and criticism thrown at you as gospel. So how do you know? I think it depends on your comfort level and confidence as a writer. The more you write, and the more you get critiqued, I think the more you will know where you stand as a writer, and whose critique is beneficial or who is just being mean. The thing is, if you have a group of intelligent, seasoned writers as your critique group and if you trust them, then you should listen. It doesn't mean you have to accept their critiques, but it pays to at least listen and do a critical analysis on your own work to see if you indeed couldn't smell your own crap.

Writers can be very self-absorbed. I know I can be, sometimes. We're too close to our own work. Some writers fluctuate between feeling inferior in every way to having an ego so big that the world wouldn't fit in it. Yeah, there is a danger that we LOVE our work so much that we'll say "To hell with you all." But before you do that, you should at least listen and see if there are merits in these people's criticism. It's unfortunate, I think, that they wouldn't offer at least some positives to counter the critique. However, if you already love your own work, having people tell you it's great isn't going to do you much good except to feed your ego. Instead, the criticism is the stuff that would make you grow as a writer.

Claudia Gray · Apr 16, 2009

I think critique that doesn't point out the good as well as the bad is fairly useless, for exactly this reason. If you don't know what does work with your story, it leaves you almost as blind as if you don't know what doesn't work.

dpaterso · Apr 16, 2009

Right here, right now, post the first 100 words of your current WIP. Pull me in and hook me. Demand I read more.

Deep breath. Be brave.

-Derek

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

jst5150 said:
Who are you getting to critique it? Are they legitimate, qualified people? There's a checklist of things I want to happen when I have something critted. For once, don't have the same type of people be critiquers. Get a vaiety of them, with varied skills and qualifications.

You know because you screen the beta readers. That doesn;t mean you pick people who are going to like them. Just pick people who are different.

Well, I don't want pure fluff like "I loved it" "It was the best thing I've ever read" but I would have liked a wee bit of encouragement that my work had potential, at least.

How do you "screen" betas? As I said, these people were all intelligent, highly qualified in a writerly sense and even had some publishing experience, from what they said. (Or at least some editing experience, working with editors, etc. Maybe it wasn't professional experience, but they spoke it as if it was God's truth.)

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

dpaterso said:
Right here, right now, post the first 100 words of your current WIP. Pull me in and hook me. Demand I read more.

Deep breath. Be brave.

-Derek

Thanks Derek, but I guess I'm not that brave yet. I guess I'd rather have a private wake than a public burning. Is there any way to "screen" a beta person. What's the best way to go about hooking up with a private beta reader?

maestrowork · Apr 16, 2009

On the other hand, if you have the right people, and all you get is negative stuff and no positive stuff, it is possible that it is in fact utter crap. It takes a real writer to realize that he or she has written crap. And it really isn't the end of the world. We either fix it, or we do something else.

sassandgroove · Apr 16, 2009

Agood critique rings true. You know something isn't working but you can't put your finger on it and so you show it to someone and they point out what isn't working and you see the light, snap your fingers and say, "THAT'S IT!" or you know, something like that. Sometimes you don't even see something you do, like use a phrase over and over or what ever, but when someone points it out you thing, "Oh crap- I do do that!!!"

veinglory · Apr 16, 2009

Maybe I don't understand the point of a critique group either. Because I run one and it is devoted almost entirely to what is wrong with people's work. Yes, what is good is also mentioned maybe 2-3% of the time but any given critique is likely to be 0% positive. We are there to fix what is wrong with each other work and make it market-ready. We are grown adults who can ignore any opinion we don't want to take on board.

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

veinglory said:
Maybe I don't understand the point of a critique group either. Because I run one and it is devoted almost entirely to what is wrong with people's work. Yes, what is good is also mentioned maybe 2-3% of the time but any given critique is likely to be 0% positive. We are there to fix what is wrong with each other work and make it market-ready. We are grown adults who can ignore any opinion we don't want to take on board.

Well, since I'm unpublished, I don't know if I can afford to ignore anyone's opinions. Trying to make crap market-ready may be pointless, but I'd like for at least one other person besides my mother to think it has potential. I guess I need a beta reader who will let me know what actually works, or if nothing does, to be honest about that too, as Maestro said.

unicornjam · Apr 16, 2009

I don't consider my critiques to be harsh or mean, but I absolutely will not include a positive remark if I see nothing redeeming in the piece. I can only hope any feedback I give back is good enough.

how will I ever know if someone else might like it?

Someone else will like it. Trust me. I suggest widening your critique pool, but unless you have a family member or friend who's serious about his/her critiques, don't bother if you want to improve.

If no one says anything positive, does that usually mean it's lame?

This depends. If the bulk of the critiques focus on your characters and not your plot, then it could just mean your characters are lame, but your plot only needs minor changes (as you see fit). I don't think it means everything is abysmal.

Also! Are you crazy? If you keep writing and get feedback on your writing, you can only go up. It gets less crappy. That's the general trend I see.

Are critiquers always stoic, pick it apart, poke-it-full-of-holes people, or are their some that read an excerpt for enjoyment?

Why would I read a piece I've been asked to critique for enjoyment? If I enjoy it, that's a definite plus, but my job is to tell you what works and what doesn't. Though I don't think I'm stoic!

How do you know?

Well, what do you like about your piece? No one says you have to listen to every critique and change your story according to them.

maestrowork · Apr 16, 2009

Maybe it's good to be up front about it and just ask, "Does this thing have potential? Or should I completely rewrite it?" Again, if your have the right people, they will tell you. Sometimes I'd be very honest and say to a writer, "This needs a lot of work." I don't also presume that the work is utterly crap and unpublishable, but if it needs a lot of work, it needs a lot of work. Then again, maybe that's why nobody wants me to critique their work anymore.

I can be a bit too honest about MY opinion. But remember, it's just an opinion.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Apr 16, 2009

In Share Your Work, you can designate what kind of crit you'd like - gentle, a little rough, a little rougher, shred me!; and everything in between.

You might want to start in the shallow end of the kid's pool, so to speak, and - when you've gotten to be a better swimmer - don your water wings and head for the adult swim.

As for choosing beta readers - there's a whole forum here for that subject: what one is, choosing one, asking for one, thanking one, looking for one. Give it a look.

And welcome! If you lay aside your fear and walk forward with faith that there are lots and lots of folks here who really and truly only want to help you (even if it hurts a little along the way), you will find what you seek.

maestrowork · Apr 16, 2009

P.S. I also think "nice" people may not be the best critters. Some people are just TOO nice to say anything negative or "harsh" even if it's the honest opinion. To me, I don't need "nice" when something really doesn't work -- I want them to tell me, instead of worrying about hurting my feelings.

Now, I've also known people who say harsh things just because they can. How do you know? Well, they can't back up their criticism. They would say, "this is crap. This really doesn't work. The character is awful and the plot goes nowhere." Then when you ask them, can you tell me where and exactly what is wrong with it? They can't tell you, or the things they tell you are trivial and really don't match their harsh opinions. That's when you know they're full of shit.

RJK · Apr 16, 2009

Sometimes writers post their first drafts, and ask others to critique it. I've seen some of these in SYW and asked the poster to please edit his work before submitting it for us to critique.
This may sound like a dumb question, but it could account for the responses you've gotten. Is it possible that this is the case for you? Did you fully edit your work before showing it to others?

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

Thanks Maestro. (and everyone) I thought I had tough skin about seeing the failure of my work (and rolling with the punches), trying to fix things and improve it a tad, but my main problem is not having any perspective on seeing its good side.

Is there a thread on how to pick a good match for beta readers?

veinglory · Apr 16, 2009

If the question is whether your work is, or realistic could be, published--IMHO that is not really what critique groups generally do. They take in material and make it better. Along the way you need to learn which advice is good and which is not, and decide for youself whether your aspirations are realistic.

If you want to know whether you are kidding yourself or not, I would suggest talking one-to-on and privately with a published writer in your genre--one who is known for accuracy and honesty.

At the very least you need to tell the critique group what you want to know. They can't even try to answer a question that you haven't asked them.

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

Ol' Fashioned Girl said:
In Share Your Work, you can designate what kind of crit you'd like - gentle, a little rough, a little rougher, shred me!; and everything in between. You might want to start in the shallow end of the kid's pool, so to speak, and - when you've gotten to be a better swimmer - don your water wings and head for the adult swim.

As for choosing beta readers - there's a whole forum here for that subject: what one is, choosing one, asking for one, thanking one, looking for one. Give it a look.

And welcome! If you lay aside your fear and walk forward with faith that there are lots and lots of folks here who really and truly only want to help you (even if it hurts a little along the way), you will find what you seek.

Oh, thanks OFG! I guess we crossed posts. I'll check that out now

Susan Breen · Apr 16, 2009

I teach a writing class and we always, always find something positive to say. I've never seen it happen that an author is doing absolutely nothing right. It might just be one line of dialogue that rings true, or the premise is interesting. But you have to know where your strengths are as well as your weaknesses. (And this is not to say that we don't spend plenty of time criticizing.)

Ganymede · Apr 16, 2009

Manix said:
Well, I don't want pure fluff like "I loved it" "It was the best thing I've ever read" but I would have liked a wee bit of encouragement that my work had potential, at least.

How do you "screen" betas? As I said, these people were all intelligent, highly qualified in a writerly sense and even had some publishing experience, from what they said. (Or at least some editing experience, working with editors, etc. Maybe it wasn't professional experience, but they spoke it as if it was God's truth.)

I look for people who:

--show consideration of others in their everyday behaviour
--genuinely enjoy reading stories in the given genre
--will do the reading and respond in a helpful, timely manner

You'll have to go through a lot of duds to find a few betas who are worth their weight in gold. When you do find valuable beta readers, after they give you feedback, take them to lunch or send them a little gift to thank them for their time, because their time and comments save you a lot of frustration.

You might want to consider finding some non-writers for betas. Writers can be helpful, especially when it comes to solving specific writing problems. But some writers will only give you feedback based on how THEY would write a story. Unfortunately, there are also writers who need to feel validated by putting others down. That may or may not be the case with the feedback you've received, but it's something to watch out for.

Keep a beta reader if their criticisms:

--Ring true with what you suspect about your writing
--Refresh you and/or provide you with new insight
--Help you improve and grow -- even if the medicine tastes bitter at first
--Motivate you to keep going

Politely thank a beta reader but move on if their criticisms:

--Conflict with the intent and purpose of your work
--Morph into how they would write the story and not how you would
--Make you feel bad or ashamed about yourself
--Discourage you and make you want to quit writing

veinglory · Apr 16, 2009

In my group, now almost two years old, I have noticed members go through period of resenting criticism and being discouraged. But then they see how much they are improving. To be honest there are a few that I would have leaned towards considering unpublishable when they joined. But everyone that stuck with it and kept posting work and listening to feedback is now at what I would consider a potentially publishable standard of writing. Now if only I could get a few more of them actually submitting! In that same time I have finished and published a novel and two novellas.

Criticism hurts sometimes but my strategy was to coach writers how to respond--nopt stiffle what people feel about the work (other than to avoid going 'on and on' and cut off any 'pile ons').

Manix · Apr 16, 2009

veinglory said:
In my group, now almost two years old, I have noticed members go through period of resenting criticism and being discouraged. But then they see how much they are improving. To be honest there are a few that I would have leaned towards considering unpublishable when they joined. But everyone that stuck with it and kept posting work and listening to feedback is now at what I would consider a potentially publishable standard of writing. Now if only I could get a few more of them actually submitting! In that same time I have finished and published a novel and two novellas.

Criticism hurts sometimes but my strategy was to coach writers how to respond--nopt stiffle what people feel about the work (other than to avoid going 'on and on' and cut off any 'pile ons').

That sounds like a good group. How did you find them?

MelodyO · Apr 16, 2009

Some people take a lot of pleasure pointing out all the ways other people suck. It's just the way of the world. Post a little bit of your work and I promise I'll find something good to say about it. There's a place for criticism, but sometimes when you're on the edge you just need a kind word to keep you going.

You all seem like nice people, but... (spinning off into good/bad critique feedback)

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