Divisions between Middle Grade/Young Readers/YA

Nope, I totally agree. The dividing line between MG and YA seems to be pretty darn arbitrary. Some people say the first HP books are MG but the last ones are YA, but the interviews I've read with JKR suggest that is NOT what she had in mind.

I've tried to figure out how Borders and my local library decide which is which, and I can't find any hard-and-fast rules. I think it has a lot to do with marketing, to be honest. Elementary school libraries aren't likely to buy many YA books, for example, while most 13-year-old kids won't shop the "kids" shelves. So the sales people try to fit the book where they think it will find the most buyers. But I think then the libraries decide for themselves anyway.

As for 80K being too long--it depends on the book. Fantasy and adventure books for kids can easily be that long. BUT you have to be able to justify that every single one of those words is necessary. I can name a dozen MG books that are that long or longer, so it can be done.

Your local B&N most likely uses another division than publishers do. You probably won't see a Young Adults section there (the books instead spread over the adult and kid sections) You said your lead is 12, but you haven't said what age your reader is supposed to be. It's common to have that be close to the MC's age, but it's not something that is set in stone. What age are you aiming for? I did a quick scan of my bookshelf and the stuff I have in the MG to YA range clocks in on roughly about 60000 words. If you really want to be sure about the length, you should probably look into some possible publishers and see what lengths they want.

It's a fine line, and that line changes per book. It's more about the story itself and who the publisher and the bookstores think the buying audience will be. Certain genres, like fantasy, blur the lines even more before the themes are usually pretty universal no matter what the age.

I originally wrote my fantasy as YA, but the editor who bough it felt it was a solid MG adventure, so we tweaked a few things (like lowering the protag's age from 17 to 15) and it's being published for the MG market. 10-14 was the age range, though I see it listed now in the 9-12 category on the bookseller sites.

I think it was 68K words when I sold it, then went up to around 73K (and back to 71K) so no, 80K isn't too high for MG, though it's right at the edge. (My agent took me on when the novel was 63K. She advised me not to go over 70K when we were revising)

Your best bet would be to have a great query and sample pages that really sing, so it's clear right from the start that even though the book is a little longer than the norm, it's worth the extra words. A tight, well written query suggests the book will be too. If your query is wordy or not as tight as it could be, that indicates the book might also need more editing, and anyone on the fence about the length might say no.

The biggest difference between MG and YA is tone. If you have a fun adventure story then it's probably MG, if you have a coming of age story that happens to also be an adventure with a teenaged protagonist, you have YA.

Compare the first few books of Harry Potter to the latter few. The first few were crazy adventures with a bit of a moral to them. The latter books had romance, deeper philosophical questions and a lot more grey - people who were all good or all bad became neither.

Also don't feel bad having your books labeled MG. I guess this always gets to me the most, it's like authors are desperate not to be categorised as such, but it is such an awesome category. I was on a panel with the amazing Tamora Pierce the other week about YA fiction and she said something along the lines of, "No offense to the authors here, but I actually believe MG is where the real innovation is happening these days." Writing MG doesn't mean you have to be all light and fluffy, in fact most every MG these days has that edge of dark to them (Neil Gaiman's Graveyard Book anyone?).

If you are aiming for the 10 - 12 market, that's MG. And no, an 80 000 word MG isn't necessarily a bad thing. I got an agent with a 90 000 word MG. I don't think the wordcount automatically turns off agents, but you need to make sure your query is extra tight so it comes across that every word you've used in your story is necessary. You have to work extra hard in your query because you are going outside the standard, prove to them that you have used as many words as are necessary, and not that you are just longwinded and don't know how to edit (which is more like me, lol).

Anyway, hope this helped somewhat, good luck with everything!

My word count was in the first sentence of the query and it didn't seem to be a problem. Omitting the word count I think would look suspicious considering it's pretty standard. I think that the agent would automatically assume there is something unusual about your word count in that instance.

I think if you want you could put it at the end of the letter. Write the synopsis first, and then say: AWESOME BOOK is a historical fantasy complete at 80 000 words.

Anyway, like I said, the word count isn't the big issue. I checked out your thread in SYW and everyone was saying the same thing. That you can have a longer word count, but you have to make sure your letter is as tight as possible. So work on that, and you should be okay.

ETA: I should add that even if you weren't including a word count, you'd still have to fix up your query letter. People aren't saying, "Well if your book was shorter, your query would be fine", it all goes together. And remember, people critiquing your query aren't critiquing your book, it's extra tough writing a query and requires a lot of tough love. But you will get it! I promise!

In the meantime, have you checked out Nathan Bransford's Be An Agent for a Day contest at his blog? It's really cool and you get to see how important a short concise query letter is. He posted 50 random queries over the course of Monday and asked people to either "request" or "reject" them as if they were agents. They could only request five. It's worth just having a look to see what you are up against: www.nathanbransford.blogspot.com (you'll have to scroll down a bit to find the first entry)

The first book in my historical fantasy trilogy was around 70k, the last over 90k. Although the protags are 16 and the books ( and indeed the protags) are very violent the books are generally marketed as 9-12. Generally my books turn up there or in teenage or in adult on an apparently random basis.

Okay, I think the original question deserves a more thorough answer.

There are some authors who clearly write/wrote MG. Beverly Cleary, Andrew Clements, Jerry Spinelli, Louis Sachar, Sara Pennypacker. What do their books have in common?
Main characters under the age of 13.
Prose is clear, simple, fairly easy to read, and books are relatively short.
The stories deal with situations that younger readers can relate to--keeping friends, fitting in at school, staying out of trouble with the grown-ups.
Serious themes, if they're included, are handled carefully. There could be death, homelessness, the effects of war, but the details are never graphic or heavy on despair. There's usually a hopeful ending.
The focus is intimate--a handful of kids, a family, a small town. Nothing epic.

Then there are authors that are clearly YA. S. E. Hinton, K. L. Going. What do their books have in common?
Main characters are teens.
Issues are complex and deep, with plenty of moral ambiguity.
Events may be shocking, violent, intense, things that make the reader uncomfortable.
The themes appeal to older readers. Adults are less of an influence on the characters' lives, and outside influences like peer pressure are stronger. The future looms larger.

The biggest difference between MG and YA is tone. If you have a fun adventure story then it's probably MG, if you have a coming of age story that happens to also be an adventure with a teenaged protagonist, you have YA.

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Sorry, but I think that's a pretty simplistic answer. There's so much more to MG literature than just fun adventure stories. What about all the classics and award winners--STONE FOX, SOUNDER, BRIDGE TO TERABITHIA, A SINGLE SHARD--that deal with death and loss? Or the books that deal with serious social issues but in a gentle way, like MANIAC MAGEE or ROOM ONE, both of which have homeless children as main characters?

Where I think most of the crossover and confusion come in these days is in the fantasy/adventure books. A book like LIGHTNING THIEF appeals to teens because the main characters are teens, it's a coming-of-age story, and it's imaginatively complex. But it doesn't actually have any grim or gritty themes that would make it inappropriate for younger readers, so a 10-year-old who reads well could certainly enjoy it. So, should it be shelved with the MG books? It is, after all, a fun adventure story, as Toothpaste says. However, it's really aimed more at a 14-year-old, and that kid is less likely to go look on the "kids" shelf if there's a "teen" section available. So depending on the store or library you go into, where you find it may vary.

But nobody's going to slip up and put CLEMENTINE with the YAs or FAT KID RULES THE WORLD in Young Readers. With most books, the division really is pretty clear.

I also think that if as a writer you don't really know where your books should be shelved, or where you'd like them to be shelved, you probably haven't read enough kid's books yet. There are all kinds of decisions to be made along the way, depending on the audience you're hoping to reach.

See this is why I made my distinction as "simplistic" as I did, because I highly disagree with many of your claims about MG. The Lightening Thief is a perfect example. You say that it is aimed more at 14 yearolds, but it isn't. Just because there is violence in an MG, does not suddenly make it YA. MGs are very dark, have lots of violence in them. What I meant by "fun adventure story" was that the focus of MG, while yes the characters do grow etc, is usually focused outwards: making new friends, solving the magic riddle, fighting racism by starting a petition etc. And YA is often focused inwards: coming to terms with one's sexuality, realising that the world doesn't revolve around you etc. The plot comes from usually a more character driven place and deals with more "teenage" issues. But MGs can be incredibly dark and violent (The Graveyard Book), however they tend to lack sexuality (because as we all know violence is way more acceptable than sex).

I think a lot of people get really confused about MGs and assume that because older kids like them that means they are YA. They aren't. I had a 10 yearold the other day explain to me his favourite part of "Alex" was when the bad guy rubbed salt into someone's wounds as a means of torture (literally btw). Kids love the dark.

Anyway Jud, sorry to have been too simplistic, my point was simply where the focus of the plot was. I didn't mean "la la la fun adventure story" I meant simply that MGs will focus on the adventure part, aka be more plot driven (in general, always generalisations) and YAs deal with coming of age first, plot second. I mean look at Twilight, nary a plot point to be seen, and yet teens love it. It's ALL about character development etc.

I wanted to jump into this discussion.

Toothpaste said:

MGs can be incredibly dark and violent (The Graveyard Book)

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Toothpaste said:

I think a lot of people get really confused about MGs and assume that because older kids like them that means they are YA. They aren't. I had a 10 yearold the other day explain to me his favourite part of "Alex" was when the bad guy rubbed salt into someone's wounds as a means of torture (literally btw). Kids love the dark.

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Some do, but some don't, just to add further balance to this argument/clarification.

Toothpaste said:

Anyway Jud, sorry to have been too simplistic, my point was simply where the focus of the plot was. I didn't mean "la la la fun adventure story" I meant simply that MGs will focus on the adventure part, aka be more plot driven (in general, always generalisations) and YAs deal with coming of age first, plot second. I mean look at Twilight, nary a plot point to be seen, and yet teens love it. It's ALL about character development etc.

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You can make the same argument with Diary of a Wimpy Kid, no plot, and kids love it, as JSK has brought to my attention.

Though I still don't get how books with little or no plot have the kind of depth and substance readers demand. With every story, I've written, if there's a lack of plot, I hear about it with vengeance. Plot and structure are tricky for me as I'm not a naturally logical thinker. I'm more right-brained than left brained that way.

In my experience, if there's little or no plot, you have to rewrite. So why can these books get away with lacking plot yet still considered a good book?

Also, I'm sure there are some YA books where coming of age and plot are balanced as opposed to one dominating the other.

Toothpaste said:

YA is often focused inwards: coming to terms with realizing that the world doesn't revolve around you

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There are MG books that deal with this too, believe me. Heck, there are picture books that deal with this very thing. It's hard a thing to learn for even the most selfless individuals.
I still struggle with this, even though I'm supposed to be "Over it" by now.

You don't have to be a "brat" or a (Insert spoiled/snobbish celebritiy of your choice here) to have trouble in this area.

Otherwise there'd be a lot more people like Elizabeth Strout's Olive Kitterage character than we ever could tolerate for more than a minute, if that.

To me, this is one of the hardest lessons any kid or teen can learn, just as hard as it is for adults to make a marriage work, with or without kids.

Overall, both JSK and Toothpaste made very solid points, and believe me Tainabell, these two know of what they speak. I still struggle with telling the difference too. But it does get clearer the more you learn.

Toothpaste said:

See this is why I made my distinction as "simplistic" as I did, because I highly disagree with many of your claims about MG. The Lightening Thief is a perfect example. You say that it is aimed more at 14 yearolds, but it isn't.
It's shelved in YA in my local Borders. I think at my library, too, but I'd have to double-check. And I agree with you, if it were up to me, I'd call it MG. My point is that marketing is pushing the definition of the 2 genres, because booksellers want to tap into the lucrative teen market.

Just because there is violence in an MG, does not suddenly make it YA. MGs are very dark, have lots of violence in them.
Yes, and my point was that the ones that don't, like CLEMENTINE, are the ones everyone agrees on. It's the ones that blend in the darkness that are being put on more than one shelf.

What I meant by "fun adventure story" was that the focus of MG, while yes the characters do grow etc, is usually focused outwards: making new friends, solving the magic riddle, fighting racism by starting a petition etc. And YA is often focused inwards: coming to terms with one's sexuality, realising that the world doesn't revolve around you etc.
This point I really agree with. One of the things that I see is that MG tends to focus more on the here-and-now: solving this immediate problem. YA tends to focus more on the future: how will what I do now determine who I become for the rest of my life. And adult books can have main characters who are kids or teens: THE LOVELY BONES by alice Sebold, for example, or LIGHT ON SNOW by Anita Shreve (hope i have the name right, I'm too lazy to go look it up) or IN COUNTRY by Bobby Ann Mason. And it seems like in those books, the focus is on looking back, even if they're written in the present tense. They come from the adult perspective, looking back at a turning point in a life.

The plot comes from usually a more character driven place and deals with more "teenage" issues. But MGs can be incredibly dark and violent (The Graveyard Book), however they tend to lack sexuality (because as we all know violence is way more acceptable than sex).

Yeah, unless it's on South Park or the Simpsons. Then apparently sex is okay for kids. go figure.

I think a lot of people get really confused about MGs and assume that because older kids like them that means they are YA. They aren't. I had a 10 yearold the other day explain to me his favourite part of "Alex" was when the bad guy rubbed salt into someone's wounds as a means of torture (literally btw). Kids love the dark.

Anyway Jud, sorry to have been too simplistic, my point was simply where the focus of the plot was. I didn't mean "la la la fun adventure story" I meant simply that MGs will focus on the adventure part,
and I still think that my examples of books like TERABITHIA or STONE FOX disprove that. Both of those are very character-driven, dark, sad, coming-of-age books. And yet they are definitely not YA.

aka be more plot driven (in general, always generalisations) and YAs deal with coming of age first, plot second. I mean look at Twilight, nary a plot point to be seen, and yet teens love it. It's ALL about character development etc.

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This is why the British writing community hit the roof when there was so much talk about age-banding books. Because for every book that fits the category, there are a dozen exceptions, and people disagree. My point is that some books are so clearly one or the other, but with so much of what's being published now, you could make a good argument either way. And in the end, I think it's the marketing angle that gets the final say.

What if you characters aren't even human?

Swampfox said:

What if you characters aren't even human?

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Then it depends on the story and the characters. How young they behave, and what themes you explore. The WARRIORS series is MG, and like Toothpaste says, the focus is on the adventure.

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not aware of any YA books that use animals as characters. But maybe I just haven't read enough YA to know for sure. But there's something about imagining yourself as not human that seems more childlike...

One other thing I realized since we started this thread. MG/YA is the distinction the publishing world--authors, agents and editors--use. Teachers and kids do not use those terms. Borders divides theirs kids' fiction into about four categories--Independent Readers would be what we call chapter books, then they have Young Readers, with fantasy separated from realistic, and two sections of teens but I can't remember what they're called. So WARRIORS is young readers, LIGHTNING THIEF is in the early-teen section, and FAT KID RULES THE WORLD is in the older-teen section.

In reality, kids' lit doesn't split neatly into two sections. It's a continuum. My earlier point was that the two ends of the continuum are easy to define. It's the middle section--how dark is too dark for MG, how young is too young for YA--where there's confusion or disagreement.

And the fact that Toothpaste disagrees with me entirely proves my point.

Most British bookshops I've seen have three divisions for the children's section - under 8, 8-12 and Teenage. "Middle grade" is an American term that seems to be catching on here with writers, if maybe not teachers, parents and publishers!

tainabell said:

Hi all,

Newbie back again with more Qs (hopefully not too overasked). I have a question. I was just in my local B&N and I noticed there was a wide variety of books that were located in the YOUNG READERS section (which they label as 7-12 year olds) including the Harry Potter series and Phillip Pullman. So I wanted to know, is HP middle grade? Is Phillip Pullman? Those both seem a bit more sophisticated than that age group.

I'm asking cause I'm pitching an 80,000 word book featuring 12 year old lead characters and over on the "Share Your Work" forum, I'm catching hell for it being too long. Is there some sort of middle ground between YA (which I'm pretty sure mine is NOT, the characters aren't into dating or anything like that yet, etc., yet) or is it all lumped together as far as agents concerned?

It seems a wide range...everything from Beverly Clearly to Phillip Pullman...anyone agree? Anyone want to set me straight?

Thanks!

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I've been wondering the same things myself.

Toothpaste said:

If you are aiming for the 10 - 12 market, that's MG. And no, an 80 000 word MG isn't necessarily a bad thing. I got an agent with a 90 000 word MG. I don't think the wordcount automatically turns off agents, but you need to make sure your query is extra tight so it comes across that every word you've used in your story is necessary. You have to work extra hard in your query because you are going outside the standard, prove to them that you have used as many words as are necessary, and not that you are just longwinded and don't know how to edit (which is more like me, lol).

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Sound advice. It makes me very happy to hear you say that. I was told my 88k was too much by people here, and now I hear of others who sold that much.
Certainly something to think on.

JudScotKev said:

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not aware of any YA books that use animals as characters. But maybe I just haven't read enough YA to know for sure. But there's something about imagining yourself as not human that seems more childlike...

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Was Watership Down YA or MG? I really don't know.

Watership Down wasn't intended for kids. It's an adult novel, or was originally. One of a kind, I guess.

JudScotKev said:

Watership Down wasn't intended for kids. It's an adult novel, or was originally. One of a kind, I guess.

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Animal Farm was adult too I think. I remember another book about some rooster called Chanticlare. Forgot what it was. Ah well.

Jack_Roberts said:

Animal Farm was adult too I think. I remember another book about some rooster called Chanticlare. Forgot what it was. Ah well.

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Chaucer's "The Nun's Priest's Tale". Definitely not YA...or even a novel!