Short Story Writers - Lend me your expertise!

What genre are we talking about? And what magazines are you hoping to get in? In my experience, a comfortable length for speculative and literary magazines is around 2000-6000 words. Higher and lower are harder sells (even if the guidelines say they publish them), but there are some places that take stories in the 10,000-25,000 word area.

Under 1000 words is flash fiction. Some magazines specialise in it, or reserve some slots for it, but it isn't the default length. You don't have to write flash to write short stories.

C.J. Rockwell said:

Then I guess most of the children's magazines that I've been looking at love flash anything, be it fiction or nonficion.

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Ah, children's stories are a different kettle of snails. It might be better to pursue the longer ones as stand-alone books? The word counts sound like you're hitting short novel territory.

As for the rest... you might find this thread useful, as it's about keeping short ideas short: Short Ideas (the word counts being discussed are for adult stories, but the same principles for shortening apply).

When I began writing short stories, the "short" part was the challenge. I didn't seem able to tell a straightforward story in less than 5,000 words.

Now I can. It took me many years to teach myself to cut my stories' lengths, but it's entirely possible.

Problems resulting in excess length can be varied and each requires its own fix. My worst was a tendency to provide more backstory than was necessary, and too many asides which resulted in richer character development but way too many words. People I've critiqued do those things, too, of course, but they may also have an essential tendency toward wordiness, leisurely pacing, too much plot or concept for a short story, description that wasn't necessary, and/or dialogue that didn't lead anywhere.

If you're feeling brave or desperate, maybe some time soon you could post a sample of your work, something at least a thousand words in length, seeking a very specific kind of feedback: assistance with reducing your word count.

You might also practice reducing word count by seeking out not-fully-polished work here and elsewhere, and treating it like a writing exercise, the goal being to reduce it by one third. You might surprise yourself with your skills when it's not your work.

Maryn, wondering if this is useful at all

C.J. Rockwell said:

To put it simply, there are two things I want to know-

1. If bigger isn't always better, why isn't the same true for short stories?
2. Can't stories be long without being long-winded?


Finally, is the following "Myth" about shorter fiction really true-

Short stories are easier and "faster" to edit than novels.

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1. What do you mean, "why isn't the same true for short stories?" As far as I was aware "bigger isn't always better" WAS the motto-of-sorts for short fiction.... I mean, you're packing a lot of action and emotion and conflict into a tiny package, as opposed to stretching it out over the course of 300 pages.... Or am I misunderstanding what you're driving at?

2. Indeed. Check out some Poe. Or Doyle. Or any of the "greats" in the genre you prefer. It just takes time and lots and lots of practice.

The Myth:
You're right on this one. Not, NOT, not, NoT true at all. Of course, I haven't yet finished a novel, but I imagine the editing portion of writing varies greatly depending on the tale and the type of writer you are. It could be easy. Or hard. Or both. But that statement is a great generalization.

C.J. Rockwell said:

Plus, some short stories I've written start out short and within the guidelines of most magazines word counts, but then when I edit it for readability and the like, it may be a better story, but it ends up being longer than I wanted, and also being "too long" for any magazine.

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It sounds as if you're adding content during the edit rather than removing content. Assuming all your story and character points are touched upon, you really ought to be looking at what you can cut from your story, not what you can add to it. Shorts should be lean; no fat. You don't have the luxury of dwelling in moments. You have a story to tell. Even the leanest story can be trimmed. A story I recently placed was submitted at just 800 words, and yet upon request I STILL trimmed it down another 150 words or so.

It's not impossible for 20,000-word stories to be considered by magazines. Some take short fiction as long as that, or even longer.

If you're writing flash fiction, you have to learn to tell your story with a lot less detail. Editors understand that at such a length stories will be lacking in a lot of areas. Your goal is to get your point across and be as original and entertaining as possible. Pick out the most important stuff and put it in the story. Cut out the rest.

Bigger is not always better in short stories. I recently wrote a story that seemed to drag at 3000 words. I cut it down to under 1000 and it became a much better story. As a writer, your goal is to keep revealing new things to a reader. Some stories just run out of things to say, and are perhaps better off as flash fiction. On the other hand, a longer short story need not be long winded. It really depends on whether or not you can keep revealing new and interesting things throughout the story. If you can't, you may either need to upgrade your plot or make the yarn shorter.

There is no question that a short story is far easier to edit than a novel. The reason is the length. It's easier to edit 15 pages than 200. The problem is that errors are more glaring in a short story, because the writer knows it has to be polished to have a chance at getting published. Some writers feel, however, that it's okay to be a little sloppy with a novel, considering the length. I believe those writers are mistaken. I think most editors expect a novel to be just as polished and carefully written as a short story.

If you're used to only writing novels, it can be difficult to write short fiction. You have to learn to say what you need to say in less words. Practice makes perfect. Insist that your 20,000 word short stories be told in 3000 words--for practice if nothing else. Figure out what needs to be cut, and ruthlessly slash it from the story. Descriptions, characters, plot details, and events will have to be removed or trimmed way down. With enough practice, it will start to come naturally for you.

Robert E. Keller
http://www.scrollsofatlantis.com

If you're having trouble keeping a short story within the word limit, several things can be at work:
1) If you strip down the idea to its bare bones without side roads and subplots it may still be too large or too complicated to fit a short story.
2) Maybe you're providing too much backstory.
3) Maybe you're being wordy in general.

Short stories tend to tell smaller stories so there's no time to describe a fantasy world or an epic battle, hence those are generally reserved for novels.

C.J. Rockwell said:

What I mean is this-

If long sprawling stories aren't always good, why are short stories considered to be the crème de la crème of super-readable simply because they're short?

Haven't you read short stories where they just didn't do it for you in terms of content or quality, despite the fact they meet an insanely cruel (In my opinion) word count.

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Aha.

I think they get that reputation because of children's literature. Children's books are short stories in terms of length, and generally easy to read. (I've even had people ask, after finding out I write short stories, "Like, for children?" Aha. Em, no. ) But when you're talking about adult short stories, nuh uh. They are recognized as being quick reads in that you can often read a short story in one sitting, during your lunch hour, etc. But more often, they are recognized as a difficult form tackling difficult subjects. Definitely not an easy read. Short stories demand much of the reader (attention, please! ). They don't pull any punches.

And yes, I have read stories that disgusted me or were boring. They were 80% of the ones I had to read out of my English lit textbook in high school. Seriously, I would have been turned off the form if I hadn't stumbled upon the few gems they had now and again (then I *knew* there were freakin' awesome stories out there and had to have more, lol)

C.J. Rockwell said:

I wouldn't consider Harry Potter, Twilight, or Eragon to be short stories by any stretch of the imagination.

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Yes, and they've also all crossed from being "for children" to being "for everyone."

I was referring to the genre lengths. Picture books are usually no more than 2k. Early chapter books are generally up to 15k, and then middle grade fiction and YA go up from there, with YA ending (roughly) at adult lengths.

And, Twilight & Eragon are both YA, so naturally they're longer. Harry Potter is a major exception to the rule of MG fiction (and I know some libraries who shelve it in YA).

But, you get my drift. Picture books, early chapter books = short stories which = easy, in the public opinion.

No problem!

Here's a reason why children's stories are generally much shorter than YA and adult fiction - children have much shorter attention spans.

Consider that their attention is being pulled in multiple directions at the same time - school, friends, homework, clothes, shoes, fashion in general, video games, television, music, etc., etc., not to mention sports and parents.

It's much more important to capture a child's attention much earlier and hold it for as long as you can. That means short, sometimes flash, fiction. Older children, young adults, and adults can be counted on, generally, if they're readers, to be able to maintain and focus their attention for much longer periods. Kids can't. So, deep back story, heavy details regarding scenery, what the characters look like, how they speak, etc., etc. can be cut right out. Kids don't care (much) about that stuff. They have more imagination than a lot of older readers do and can fill in all those details on their own.

Give 'em story. Make it short and grab their attention and count on them to lose that attention within a span of not more than 30 minutes, if that long. Look at comics and they way the stories are told there for an example of how to deliver attention-grabbing stories in only a few pages. Comic have an advantage in that they're accompanied by lots of 4-color, high-impact art. That's not just to be colorful, it's intended to grab and hold one's attention.

My opinion, worth what ya' paid for it.

FOTSGreg said:

Here's a reason why children's stories are generally much shorter than YA and adult fiction - children have much shorter attention spans.

Consider that their attention is being pulled in multiple directions at the same time - school, friends, homework, clothes, shoes, fashion in general, video games, television, music, etc., etc., not to mention sports and parents.

It's much more important to capture a child's attention much earlier and hold it for as long as you can. That means short, sometimes flash, fiction. Older children, young adults, and adults can be counted on, generally, if they're readers, to be able to maintain and focus their attention for much longer periods. Kids can't. So, deep back story, heavy details regarding scenery, what the characters look like, how they speak, etc., etc. can be cut right out. Kids don't care (much) about that stuff. They have more imagination than a lot of older readers do and can fill in all those details on their own.

Give 'em story. Make it short and grab their attention and count on them to lose that attention within a span of not more than 30 minutes, if that long. Look at comics and they way the stories are told there for an example of how to deliver attention-grabbing stories in only a few pages. Comic have an advantage in that they're accompanied by lots of 4-color, high-impact art. That's not just to be colorful, it's intended to grab and hold one's attention.

My opinion, worth what ya' paid for it.

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Speaking as a public librarian, hear hear!

It's true that work count limits on short stories can be frustrating. But they can also be a great teacher. When I've been forced to cut a story down to half its current length, I learn to get rid of the wordiness that I have such a bad habit of. Granted, there does come a point in any story where cutting anything else will do more harm than good, but that's usually much later than you think.

In some ways, novels can be misleading. In a novel, every scene should be important and lend something to the story, just like in short fiction. But since word counts with novels are a bit more flexible, authors might not pick up on how many unnecessary scenes there really are.

By the same token, I've read some long-winded short fiction as well.