Writing what you don't know.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

There's an old saw that goes something like "write what you know."

That only carries to a certain level, though, where erotica is concerned (at least for me, and from what I've read in other writers blogs).

Regarding sex, I can easily write what I've done. I can, with work, write what I've fantasized about, even if it's something I would never do. I'm having a real tough time writing about stuff that I can't even fantasize about.

I'm working on a light bondage scene that *needs* a punishment element. I think (hope) I've finally gotten there. But it was very difficult for me, the scene took forever to write (six times. lol). The spanking thing just...doesn't do me. If it gets down to it, FLOGGING sounds more sensual to me than the spanking thing. (Unfortunately, that would definitely NOT be true for my female protagonist.)

Spanking/humiliation doesn't do me at all. I've tried to *pretend* it did, to fantasize about it, to read stories including it...but it just doesn't. And yet, I need it, plot-wise, in my story.

How do *you* handle writing about erotic incidents that not only are you not familiar with, but that you can't find one thread of sensuality in them personally, and yet, your plot requires it?

Other things that might fall into this category for me are talking dirty ("F*** me! F*** my c***! Make me c*m*", etc. just makes me roll my eyes, usually, and I just wait for everyone to shut up again) and really squishily romantic scenes (I can't even think of an example of this but I know them when I read them...they usually include lots of euphemisms).

But take my "punishment" thing as an example. As I said, the whole scene is kind of necessary, plot-wise. So I have to finish the damn thing.

What do you do when you have to write something that absolutely doesn't turn you on?

J.

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

Research? ;] Grab your significant other: "For the sake of literature!"

(By the way, flogs should not be used on someone that have absolutely no experience with painplay. It can be shocking how much it stings and totally blow the mood...and someone with no experience of using it definitely should not be using heavy-duty ones. It's rare, but some strikes can cause pretty serious damages to the person it's being used on).

Heh. Sorry. But seriously, I think the best way is to interview and read up on the psychology behind it. I can relate to it more and write about it better when I can understand why other people finds it alluring.

ELMontague · Mar 12, 2009

Let your mind work on it until you understand. Imagine yourself in the situation and wonder what it is that makes it work. Most things, in my experience, that stray from vanilla sex have a foundation that's not sex. Think about that.

With bondage the game is control or lack of control. I'd also say it's trust and trust is very sexy. Being willing to let someone tie you up shows a tremendous amount of trust in the person doing it.

As for pain v pleasure they are the two drivers of endorphins, both can get you high.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

dnic said:
Research? ;] Grab your significant other: "For the sake of literature!"

lmao...um. Definitely not my husband. He's heard me ranting about it the last week and has wisely kept his mouth SHUT.

(By the way, flogs should not be used on someone that have absolutely no experience with painplay.

Yep. Eli, my protagonist, has experience. If only he really existed. I'd invite him over.

But seriously, I think the best way is to interview and read up on the psychology behind it. I can relate to it more and write about it better when I can understand why other people finds it alluring.

I've been doing that, and trying to get into the headspace. I've also been reading about the physiological response, i.e. the endorphin rush, and trying to understand it that way. At this point, I'm just reading stuff, repeating what I read, and hoping that it flies. That works great when I'm describing how to screw up the ballistics of a gun (another story I'm working on) but doesn't really work for sex. Or, maybe it does. Maybe 3/4 of the people who are writing this stuff know less about it than I do! lol

I'd have no idea where to even FIND someone to interview on this. I've never known for sure that anyone I knew was into it (though thinking back, we did have friends that probably were). I currently live in a county that is 2/3 the size of Rhode Island, and has about 8000 people. (The county next to us is 220% the size of Rhode Island and has only 12k-13k people.)

So who d'ya ask? lol

Some days, I really miss the city.

Thanks.

J.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

ELMontague said:
With bondage the game is control or lack of control. I'd also say it's trust and trust is very sexy. Being willing to let someone tie you up shows a tremendous amount of trust in the person doing it.

EL, I've got that part. That's what he tells her as a matter of fact. She wants to play Scrabble; he wants to play "Trust me." When she finally decides that she DOES trust him, the scene takes off.

Eli thinks that *all* sex is control/surrender, bondage or not.

It's just that...heck, if you don't find it sexy, how do you WRITE about it sexily? I'll take your advice, though, and think about what the draw is, partly from a non-sexual standpoint.

As for pain v pleasure they are the two drivers of endorphins, both can get you high.

I've heard this, read this, studied this, and from an intellectual standpoint, I understand it. But for me...pain hurts, and embarrassment pisses me off. lol

WriteKnight · Mar 12, 2009

Never been shot with a gun, but I can pretty well imagine the sort of pain by extrapolating from other sorts of pain.

Never shot and killed a human being, but I have shot and killed animals of different sorts, some times there was an enormous rush - sometimes great remorse - and sometimes nothing at all.

These are the sorts of emotions one draws upon when describing fight scenes.

Much the same takes place when writing erotica. Find a similar emotion, an extension of a parrallel action - and extrapolate on it.

Any experience in 'role playing'? This requires an element of trust an engagement - even for 'theatre games' of the stage. Some of this translates to sexual power exchanges of any kind. Ever 'direct' a scene for film or stage? YOU are the one in control of the 'players' - orchestrating the action. Ever follow directions in a LIVE PERFORMANCE - where a mistake could be either psychologically devastating, or success enormously rewarding?

Follow where this is going?

Imagination is the act of nuturing experience into fantasy.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

WriteKnight said:
Follow where this is going?

Yes, I do understand what you're saying. My problem is that I can't think of anyway to write being spanked as something good/erotic, endorphins or no.

I can write about someone being shot. It hurts, they hate it, so would I. But could you write about someone being shot and loving how it feels, getting turned on by it?

I realize that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm faced with here. There are things that I write about in erotica that, while it isn't anything I'd ever do, I can imagine why they are sexy/sensual/etc. But I just can't get there with pain (other than a couple of stories I've read with about really expert floggers, that were very well written...but this isn't that kind of story, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of nuance to spankings, for example).

I am unable to draw on something that I find abhorrent (e.g. pain) and make it sexy. If it was my villain, no problem - lol - but I'm just not getting there with my semi-innocent female protagonist. And she needs to be there, for just a few pages.

*sigh*. I'll get it, eventually, maybe, possibly, hopefully.

J.

WriteKnight · Mar 12, 2009

I'm going to assume you have never experienced pleasure from a 'love bite' a nip of the teeth anywhere? A pinch on some part of your anatomy? ANY KIND OF STIMULOUS? You've never SCRATCHED AN ITCH?

Scratching is normally 'painfull' but it can also RELIEVE pain by releasing endorphins.

Seriously - Think about how your skin works... As well as how the mind works.

PAIN is a form of OVERSTIMULATION of the nerve endings... the same ending that generate pleasure.

"There are no poisonous chemcials... only poisonous LEVELS of chemicals..." a chemist once reminded me. The same is true for stimulation. At some point, it will turn to "pain". What one person finds painfull, someone else might not even react too. Part of that is physical structure, part of that is physical and mental conditioning.

IF your heroine has NEVER experienced it, then she is 'you' in this setting. Your hero must 'train' her... very carefully, by working up to it. Her 'enlightenment' will be part of the erotic element of the story - her 'awakening' to this - heretofore - unkown element of her own sexuality.

And if it helps, try and keep in mind the old joke "Why are you beating your head against the wall? - Because it feels so good when I stop."

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

WriteKnight said:
I'm going to assume you have never experienced pleasure from a 'love bite' a nip of the teeth anywhere? A pinch on some part of your anatomy? ANY KIND OF STIMULOUS? You've never SCRATCHED AN ITCH?

Scratching is normally 'painfull' but it can also RELIEVE pain by releasing endorphins.

Seriously - Think about how your skin works... As well as how the mind works.

lol - I must be weird or something. Current husband isn't a scratcher or biter, at least not in any way that causes pain of ANY kind (good or bad), though that hasn't stopped *me* and he isn't talking. Previous wasn't either. And while my life when I was younger was...errrm...lively, no, never really met even a scratcher/biter.

I've scratched itches, but they don't hurt, they itch, and if I scratch them, that doesn't hurt, they just stop itching. Very hot water will accomplish the same thing - lol.

If something hurts, I just swear a bluestreak, and sex is probably the furthest thing from my mind.

I'll give that some thought, though, trying to transfer that sort of feeling (relieving an itch) into making a spanking (or a gunshot wound

) sound like something that feels good, rather than just write what everyone else says about it.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

Sorry, you added these edits while I was answering your post

WriteKnight said:
IF your heroine has NEVER experienced it, then she is 'you' in this setting. Your hero must 'train' her... very carefully, by working up to it. Her 'enlightenment' will be part of the erotic element of the story - her 'awakening' to this - heretofore - unkown element of her own sexuality.

Yeah, my problem is this is one 4,000 word scene in a novel that doesn't have pain/bondage as a major component...so I can't really train her up. Her reaction to it, though, is part of the highlight of the scene. Perhaps that will be good enough.

And if it helps, try and keep in mind the old joke "Why are you beating your head against the wall? - Because it feels so good when I stop."

And ya know? I might just be able to run with that. lol.

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

SFLP said:
Yep. Eli, my protagonist, has experience. If only he really existed. I'd invite him over.

I meant your girl. ;] She might be a bit skittish if she sees him approaching with a flog. That's definitely something that should be worked up to and not:
"Hey honey, I saw this in the thrift shop. Let's try it out?" - insert sound of leather snapping -

I'd have no idea where to even FIND someone to interview on this. I've never known for sure that anyone I knew was into it (though thinking back, we did have friends that probably were). I currently live in a county that is 2/3 the size of Rhode Island, and has about 8000 people. (The county next to us is 220% the size of Rhode Island and has only 12k-13k people.)

And that's where the internet comes in. =] I don't know exactly how much you want to dive into it, but if you search the web, there are plenty of fetish (oh-no-she-didn't!) websites out there. - coughs - I can probably point you in a direction of a few. (Try fetlife.com- warning, NOT work-safe and definitely NOT kiddy-safe). If you lurk there, they talk pretty candidly about their lifestyle. It might give you even more of an insight?

So who d'ya ask? lol

Heh. I know people who know people?

As for lack of nuance in spanking, well...there are. It can be (I know this is going to sound weird) sensual, because it is an attack on the senses. You're in close proximity to the person who (hopefully) you're attracted to. You're in a humbling position, over his/her knees, prostrated before him/her...however you are. Plus, there are different kind of blows, different angles, different types of striking, and it's never just a straight series of "hello-hand-meet-the-behind."

mlhernandez · Mar 12, 2009

Answering as a reader and not a writer, I will say I can always tell when a writer isn't familiar or comfortable with the BDSM practices they write about. It sort of irks me. I've found a stable of authors who can satisfy my BDSM cravings and stick with them. Every now and then I'll try someone new, but more often than not, I'm disappointed.

As a writer, I'll say that I've pretty much tried everything I write about just because I want to *know* the sensations. If it's something I really don't want to try, I'll phone up a kinky friend and ask for a really in-depth description. If it's something I find appealing, I approach the hubby. DH is usually a sport about it and, sure, we normally end up laughing ourselves off the bed or countertop or table or hood of the truck or (insert sort of flat surface here) but the research is worth it. There's really just no other way to capture the sensations.

YMMV, of course.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

dnic said:
I meant your girl. ;] As for lack of nuance in spanking, well...there are. It can be (I know this is going to sound weird) sensual, because it is an attack on the senses. You're in close proximity to the person who (hopefully) you're attracted to. You're in a humbling position, over his/her knees, prostrated before him/her...however you are. Plus, there are different kind of blows, different angles, different types of striking, and it's never just a straight series of "hello-hand-meet-the-behind."

Ha! I'm laughing and blushing at the same time. perhaps that's a step in the right direction. Thanks, dnic.

J.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

mlhernandez said:
laughing ourselves off the bed or countertop or table or hood of the truck or (insert sort of flat surface here) but the research is worth it.

I'm a firm believer in flat surfaces.

J.

ELMontague · Mar 12, 2009

It might sound screwed up, but I do martial arts sparring because I like the feeling of being hit and hitting. Of course I've been knocked unconscious a couple of times, which isn't good.

You said pain just hurts, maybe you should try a little less pain.

mlhernandez · Mar 12, 2009

ELMontague said:
You said pain just hurts, maybe you should try a little less pain.

It might be that she's just one of those people who don't enjoy pain. DH is like that. The idea of being spanked hasn't the slightest erotic connotation for him. It's actually rather appalling! To me, though, pain and pleasure go hand in hand.

I think it's all about the wiring of our brains. Even before I became an erotica and erotic romance writer, I was fascinated by the idea of mixing ouch with ahhh. Probably didn't help that the first erotic novel I read was Sleeping Beauty....

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

SFLP said:
Ha! I'm laughing and blushing at the same time. perhaps that's a step in the right direction. Thanks, dnic.

J.

- bows with a flourish - I aim to please? ;]

Well...pain hurts. Masochists don't LIKE getting papercuts. It depends entirely on the situation. And if the adrenaline is running high...well, adrenaline makes everything better. Sort of. =]

ELMontague · Mar 12, 2009

Maybe, of course, one of the things that attracts me to writing is the opportunity to explore those other parts of me without getting into trouble.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

ELMontague said:
It might sound screwed up, but I do martial arts sparring because I like the feeling of being hit and hitting. Of course I've been knocked unconscious a couple of times, which isn't good.

You said pain just hurts, maybe you should try a little less pain.

I dunno. For me pain either hurts or it doesn't. Hard to explain.

I can understand the fear component to a certain extent. About six or seven years ago I took up rockhounding/mineral collecting (BOY was I out of shape at the time) and found myself scaling almost vertical walls that I couldn't get down from without help and ducking into dark, spider-ridden mineshafts in search of treasure. It was definitely...invigorating is the word, I guess. Anger (as you've probably gathered from my previous posts) can be a real turn on.

But pain is pain is pain. It either hurts enough for me to take ibuprofen/codeine/whatever, or I live with it. I mostly live with it.

But I'll work on it. lol

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

mlhernandez said:
Probably didn't help that the first erotic novel I read was Sleeping Beauty....

Um, yeah. That was probably one of the first erotica titles that I read, oh...sheesh, I'm old. 20 years ago? And I thought "what?" lolol

J.

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

ELMontague said:
Maybe, of course, one of the things that attracts me to writing is the opportunity to explore those other parts of me without getting into trouble.

Heh. That's a good way of doing it, I guess. =]

What mlhernandez said is true though. Some people just aren't wired that way. There are ways that you can "train" a person to respond "favorably" to pain (classical conditioning works in most cases I think...), but it won't be something that's instinctive.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

dnic said:
(Try fetlife.com).

Very...um...educational site. lol. Who knows, may start a writer's group for people like me, if one doesn't exist.

J.

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

SFLP said:
Very...um...educational site. lol. Who knows, may start a writer's group for people like me, if one doesn't exist.

J.

Not for the faint-hearted. Sorry. Should have posted a warning.

SFLP · Mar 12, 2009

dnic said:
Not for the faint-hearted. Sorry. Should have posted a warning.

No, I'm serious, great site, very educational. I'm still on it, browsing. Learning lots. lol

You're right, it's a great resource for what I'm trying to learn.

(And besides - I've always found basic light bondage intriguing. Some of the other stuff on the site weirds me out a bit, but I've always figured, to each their own. :shrug

J.

dnic · Mar 12, 2009

Oh good. =] Glad that it's helping.

But really...problem with that site is that the groups aren't very well-monitored, so some of the groups can get pretty...graphic? (Psst...check out shibari if rope bondage is something that might interest one of your characters). But there are plenty of information there.

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