Can bad writers become good writers?

popbunny · Mar 10, 2009

I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few days. I've posted some of my first attempt at fiction in SYW, and offered to critique a ms from another member.

It seems like some of the SYW critiques here, and on a few other writing forums I've found, as so comprehensive that they turn bad writing into good writing. Some of them turn a piece with no voice into a really strong work.

Is it bad writing in the first place? Or good writing that hasn't had enough revision yet? And if it's bad writing, do writers learn from the critique and with more training and assistance go on to become good writers? Or is everything they write destined to become completely rewritten be time-generous critics?

Some of the SYW I looked at and couldn't help but think, I wouldn't even know where to start to help redeem this piece of writing. And the ms I took on I accepted because I already thought it was great writing. Am I just being lazy?

NeuroFizz · Mar 10, 2009

Every single writer can improve, no matter the degree of experience and regardless of the talent level. That's a primary drive in this business--to get better, to look back each year and appreciate the progress, to look to the next year as a challenge to match or exceed that progress. Some writers may feel comfortable where they are. I hope I never find that groove because the challenge of improvement contributes to my self-motivation.

Shadow_Ferret · Mar 10, 2009

I don't believe all bad writers can become good writers. I think you either have the innate gift or you don't and no amount of schooling, or practice, or waht have you will be able to change that.

Some people are just awful writers. Just as not everyone can be a skilled woodworker, or a painter, or a concert musician.

kaitlin008 · Mar 10, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
I don't believe all bad writers can become good writers. I think you either have the innate gift or you don't and no amount of schooling, or practice, or waht have you will be able to change that.

Some people are just awful writers. Just as not everyone can be a skilled woodworker, or a painter, or a concert musician.

I agree with that, although I do think that you can start out as a mediocre writer and through really hard work improve to become a great writer, as long as you've got the creativity to come up with a good storyline.

James81 · Mar 10, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
I don't believe all bad writers can become good writers. I think you either have the innate gift or you don't and no amount of schooling, or practice, or waht have you will be able to change that.

Some people are just awful writers. Just as not everyone can be a skilled woodworker, or a painter, or a concert musician.

And I think that comes down to one basic thing:

You can teach someone how to write good (grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc.) but you can never teach someone how to be a good writer.

Becoming a good writer is something that comes through experience, through knowing your audience and how your words will affect them, etc.

scarletpeaches · Mar 10, 2009

You can teach writing but you can't teach storytelling.

willietheshakes · Mar 10, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
You can teach writing but you can't teach storytelling.

Yup.

And I agree, as well, that you can teach a mediocre writer to be a better writer.

Sadly, though, all too often the reverse of all this is the case: a LOT of good writers become, over time, BAD writers. Usually, it just so happens that there's money attached.

Perle_Rare · Mar 10, 2009

If writers can't improve, then there's little hope for me.

* doesn't let that thought phase her and goes right back to writing *

maestrowork · Mar 10, 2009

Yes. Like Stephen King said in On Writing, with enough learning and practice, you can make a bad writer into a competent writer, and a competent writer into a good writer.

What you CAN'T do is make a good writer into a GREAT writer -- that requires divine intervention.

Most of us would have to make do with being just "good."

angeliz2k · Mar 10, 2009

Practice makes perfect.

Will we all be Shakespeare, Thoreau, Bronte, James, Rushdie, Borges, whomever you love? No. But people can ALWAYS improve and always DO improve with time, effort, and practice.

angeliz2k · Mar 10, 2009

To qualify what I said; just because people get better doesn't mean they'll ever be good.

My father is dyslexic. It's taken him nearly sixty years to be able to really read and write, and his spelling is still a little wonky. At least most people can understand his handwriting now. He's gotten better (and he can tell a great story orally, btw), but will he ever be a great writer? Er, no.

Some people just have a lot more to learn than others.

AnonymousWriter · Mar 10, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
You can teach writing but you can't teach storytelling.

Ditto that.

With enough practice and commitment, everyone can improve their writing. No writer is perfect. But a lot of it has to come from inborn talents.

I think some people were born to be great writers. But that doesn't mean that others can't be a good writer.

timewaster · Mar 10, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
Every single writer can improve, no matter the degree of experience and regardless of the talent level. That's a primary drive in this business--to get better, to look back each year and appreciate the progress, to look to the next year as a challenge to match or exceed that progress. Some writers may feel comfortable where they are. I hope I never find that groove because the challenge of improvement contributes to my self-motivation.

Oh I find that attitude so tiring and unrealistic. I don't think I get better year on year.
Sometimes I write a better book than the previous one sometimes not.
I have ambitions to write really good books, but I am under no illusions that there is any kind of career progression in this game. I hope for longevity, that I continue to sell, that I carry on enjoying what I do and that every now and again I hit the sweet spot.

Each book I write is an entity in itself - I do the best I can by it. Is it better than the last one - who knows? Who judges? I find the very idea slightly ludicrous.

cubed · Mar 10, 2009

maestrowork said:
Yes. Like Stephen King said in On Writing, with enough learning and practice, you can make a bad writer into a competent writer, and a competent writer into a good writer.

What you CAN'T do is to make a good writer into a GREAT writer -- that requires divine intervention.

Most of us would have to make do with being just "good."

This is what I was going to say. You can learn to create enjoyable, well written, and otherwise publishable stories, but it takes something more for you to be a great writer.

Most of my favorite writers I would classify as good but not great, so it’s not an insult to be labeled as such, IMO.

NeuroFizz · Mar 10, 2009

I happen to think one can improve in storytelling as well. Just reading a lot can improve storytelling technique, and good beta readers can offer suggestions for improving storytelling that can be incorporated into one's writing toolbox.

Bad to good, good to great, this is all very subjective, and it should not be determined by the writer him/herself. It's for others to determine. That's why I focus on constant improvement. I just try to move in the right direction and let others place me on the quality continuum...

timewaster · Mar 10, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
You can teach writing but you can't teach storytelling.

Why not?

Plot Device · Mar 10, 2009

maestrowork said:
Yes. Like Stephen King said in On Writing, with enough learning and practice, you can make a bad writer into a competent writer, and a competent writer into a good writer.

What you CAN'T do is to make a good writer into a GREAT writer -- that requires divine intervention.

Most of us would have to make do with being just "good."

My fav quote from that book.

NeuroFizz · Mar 10, 2009

timewaster said:
Why not?

I agree. I think this is a myth writers have invented to make themselves seem special. It seems to be an accepted mantra, but I can think of several ways I have learned to improve my storytelling technique. And each person develops his/her own little storytelling quirks (some good, some bad) that make him/her an original writer. Those quirks can change with experience.

timewaster · Mar 10, 2009

popbunny said:
I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few days. I've posted some of my first attempt at fiction in SYW, and offered to critique a ms from another member.

It seems like some of the SYW critiques here, and on a few other writing forums I've found, as so comprehensive that they turn bad writing into good writing. Some of them turn a piece with no voice into a really strong work.

I think bad witers can become better ,though it is a little hard to judge.
(Some people I think are really bad writers are very successful.)

In many ways if you are getting really basic things wrong - like failing to have a story, or a consistent viewpoint, muddling tenses etc etc. it is relatively easy to improve very quickly and teaching/critting can really help. I think the move from competent to 'good' is much harder to achieve and is in any case much more subjective. People can usually agree about what is bad, disputes are much more common along the 'OK to 'great' continuum.

maestrowork · Mar 10, 2009

Of course everything can be improved upon and that includes storytelling techniques.

Still, it's a mistake to think or pretend that everyone can be good or great. Not everyone can be an astronaut, no matter how hard he or she tries.

scarletpeaches · Mar 10, 2009

*sigh*

Storytelling is the part that comes from the creative part of you. No-one can teach it. No-once can write a book for you. So while it can't be taught, can you choose to improve it yourself? Perhaps.

I find it strange that a writer can't tell the difference between writing a book and telling a story. While reading widely can undoubtedly help you see various ways of telling a story, it's ultimately down to you to use those techniques...or not.

I think it comes down to a strange kind of alchemy between what you've learned, what you've read and what you've experienced. No-one can teach that. But perhaps - and this is a BIG perhaps - it can be improved if you utilise the above three things properly.

Viking Horse · Mar 10, 2009

Perhaps it is a bit off topic now, but I am curious now as to what you guys consider the difference between a good writer and a great writer. I mean, I'm guessing one you're willing to read and the other you probably seek out, but can anybody provide a quick example, comparing two authors?

As for me, I like to think that, yes, someone can become a better writer. I look back on my older stuff, as most of us probably do, and I see a marked improvement over it. I think it has a lot to do with 1) getting comfortable with the idea of writing, 2) the "finding your voice" thing and 3) learning what works and doesn't work. So yeah, you're learning the rules, but I also think you can get a maturing sense of commitment. Breaking down that barrier of confidence, I believe, can do a lot to improve your work.

maestrowork · Mar 10, 2009

Actually, you CAN teach and learn storytelling, which can be deconstructed as mere steps.

That's what "genre conventions" are...

NeuroFizz · Mar 10, 2009

To the original question: Can bad writers become good writers?

Yes. It is possible.

By extension: Can bad storytellers become good storytellers?

Yes. It is possible.

It all depends on the starting point (how bad) and the finishing point (how good). And since these are subjective measures, we can go around and around on what is good and bad and totally sidestep the important point--no matter where on the continuum, one can improve. And improvement goes in the same direction as bad-to-good.

Again: Can bad writers become good writers?

For some people it will never happen. For some, improvement may progress very slowly so significant movement on the continuum will not show much upward trajectory. For some people quantum leaps are possible, like when some writing technique finally clicks and the person's writing takes on a sudden new quality (this can be in the mechanics or in the storytelling side of writing). Quantum leaps in understanding a craft can happen at any level of competence. It may be an aspect of these quantum leaps of understanding that form the separation between good and great writers.

scarletpeaches · Mar 10, 2009

Mind you, there are some authors who are thought of as 'great', and me? I'd rather scoop my own eyes out with hot teaspoons than waste my time reading them...

Can bad writers become good writers?

The grad students did it

Court Jester

Seeing newness all the time

Great Scott Member

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Dragon rider

Fear the Death Ray

never mind the shorty

never mind the shorty

present

The grad students did it

present

A woman said to write like a man.

The grad students did it

present

Fear the Death Ray

Devil in the Top Hat

Fear the Death Ray

The grad students did it