Different Reasons for "Holy Wars"

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 8, 2009

In one of my projects, "Gods" are a very real and provable part of the world. There is no question that they exist. All of them. Basically, no-one can really say that another group worships a false god/false gods... though different people's definition of "God" might differ. But one of the major plot points of the project is a religious war between two different religious groups (and there are plenty of story-historical examples of this as well). There's a complex historical background, but I'll try to keep it simple.

One group is a very large monotheistic religion, who were essentially kicked out of a certain region. Their God had lied to them about the existence of other Gods in the world, and at a certain point, admitted the truth. This caused a split where a very large section of this religion went off and became polytheistic. The original group didn't approve of this, and they eventually went to war against each other. The polytheistic side won, and banished the montheistic group to another continent. Mainly because the God of the monotheists (which might not be an entirely appropriate term, but you get the idea: they worshipped (though not believed only in) a single God) wanted its worshippers back. It wasn't anything personal on the part of the God, more an issue of survival. More worshippers equals more power. The polytheists didn't really have anything personal against the God either, and still believed in the God; but their worship was now spread out among many other Gods, as well. But that doesn't mean the monotheistic worshippers knew it wasn't personal. The God has no issue with lying to get what it wants. The worshippers (who are human, if that matters) don't understand the issues of Godhood the way the Gods do.

But my question is this: In the face of a complete understanding by the majority of people that all Gods are real, do holy wars seem like they would be out of place? Do I have a reasonable cause for having one?

Zoombie · Mar 8, 2009

If God A is real and hates God B and you worship God A, it seems reasonable that you would hate God B too and, by extension, his followers.

RSD · Mar 8, 2009

In the face of a complete understanding by the majority of people that all Gods are real, do holy wars seem like they would be out of place?

Not at all out of place. Because they're not fighting over the existence of a gods, but rather they are fighting over who's religion is a better practice to worship those gods. You can always have two people believe in the same thing, but have different understandings about it. For example, Baptists have different understandings of God than say a Methodist. Though they still believe in the same God, and quite possibly are very similar, they have different teachings about Him, and thus have different denominations.

Do I have a reasonable cause for having one?

If group A disagrees with group B, that's the foundation of war.

SPMiller · Mar 9, 2009

When in doubt, Fallout.

"War. War never changes. [...] waged over the resources that could be acquired."

Additionally, there could be "holy places" where events of import happened in the distant past. The gods and/or their followers may perceive these places to have value, whether subjective or objective, and they might therefore be willing to fight for them.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 9, 2009

What about differences between surface and true causes? The reason the God supports this war has nothing to do with the reason the humans would support it. Nor is the God exactly willing to explain its reasons. There's been a sort of paradigm shift, and this God is from the old side. it can't really survive without worshippers, because it has lost its original source of power. So that's its motivation. I'm still working on what the human motivation is. It's not like this God created the world or something. It was just a power. A major river spirit, originally, I think. But then displaced. The newer form of god/spirit is making inroads on its domain, and so its struggling to survive. As it loses the secondary powerbase of worship, it is diminished. So it's a fight for survival.

But on the part of the humans, I'm struggling. What puerely physical issues could drive them to support this God, beyond spiritual concerns? Are there any published books that deal with similar issues? I've read plenty of fantasy where you have a Islamic/Christian-like monothesitic religion that calls heathen or infidel on those who disagree--Jennifer Fallon's Xaphista, say, or Edding's Elene God--but not so much issues between Gods that aren't mutually exclusive. Anyone jave recommendations?

tehuti88 · Mar 9, 2009

Makes sense to me that holy wars could still exist (even if for different reasons). But be aware I'm of the mind that, even if the tenets of EVERY belief system were proven to be true tomorrow (no matter how contradictory, just bear with me here), or even if every belief system were proven to be false, people would still find reasons to have holy wars. If there's something holy, or even just a belief in something holy (and sometimes not even that much), then there's enough reason to have holy war. And people can always find ways to call something a holy war even if it's not--and, in time, come to believe in their own deceit.

Just my naive two cents. Your idea sounds complex but intriguing BTW.

ETA: Slipped the update post. I have nothing to add, sorry.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 9, 2009

tehuti88 said:
Makes sense to me that holy wars could still exist (even if for different reasons). But be aware I'm of the mind that, even if the tenets of EVERY belief system were proven to be true tomorrow (no matter how contradictory, just bear with me here), or even if every belief system were proven to be false, people would still find reasons to have holy wars. If there's something holy, or even just a belief in something holy (and sometimes not even that much), then there's enough reason to have holy war. And people can always find ways to call something a holy war even if it's not--and, in time, come to believe in their own deceit.

Just my naive two cents. Your idea sounds complex but intriguing BTW.

ETA: Slipped the update post. I have nothing to add, sorry.

Don't worry about it.

Lyra Jean · Mar 9, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
What about differences between surface and true causes? The reason the God supports this war has nothing to do with the reason the humans would support it. Nor is the God exactly willing to explain its reasons. There's been a sort of paradigm shift, and this God is from the old side. it can't really survive without worshippers, because it has lost its original source of power. So that's its motivation. I'm still working on what the human motivation is. It's not like this God created the world or something. It was just a power. A major river spirit, originally, I think. But then displaced. The newer form of god/spirit is making inroads on its domain, and so its struggling to survive. As it loses the secondary powerbase of worship, it is diminished. So it's a fight for survival.

But on the part of the humans, I'm struggling. What puerely physical issues could drive them to support this God, beyond spiritual concerns? Are there any published books that deal with similar issues? I've read plenty of fantasy where you have a Islamic/Christian-like monothesitic religion that calls heathen or infidel on those who disagree--Jennifer Fallon's Xaphista, say, or Edding's Elene God--but not so much issues between Gods that aren't mutually exclusive. Anyone jave recommendations?

Could the God's powerbases have significance for its human worshipers? Ancestral homeland, natural resources, future homeland, manifest destiny, source of major food supply, hub of a trade route. Could the God control a charismatic leader and use the leader to make the followers fight for him?

Sounds very interesting not what I was thinking when I first read the premise. Good luck.

tarcanus · Mar 9, 2009

<i>But on the part of the humans, I'm struggling. What puerely physical issues could drive them to support this God, beyond spiritual concerns?</i>

You just mentioned that it used to be a river spirit. Drought, or the threat of it, I think, would drive humans to worship a river spirit in the hopes of ending the drought or bringing on rain or whatnot.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 9, 2009

rosemerry said:
Could the God's powerbases have significance for its human worshipers? Ancestral homeland, natural resources, future homeland, manifest destiny, source of major food supply, hub of a trade route. Could the God control a charismatic leader and use the leader to make the followers fight for him?

Sounds very interesting not what I was thinking when I first read the premise. Good luck.

Good point on the first part; and same for Tarcanus's comment, though it's not only a river spirit any more--but that could certainly be a major part of it. Thanks both.

On the premise, perhaps you could explain what you were thinking? There's a lot of room in the concept, so I'm very likely to find your thoughts interesting.

Lhun · Mar 17, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
But my question is this: In the face of a complete understanding by the majority of people that all Gods are real, do holy wars seem like they would be out of place? Do I have a reasonable cause for having one?

A bit late but anyway: i don't think anything would really change about holy wars. After all, when the majority of holy wars took place in history, the humans "knew" that gods were real. The kind of spiritualistic monotheism that says there is really only one god and people just call him different is a pretty modern invention.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" was not written by people who thought those other gods were mere fiction.

Higgins · Mar 17, 2009

Lhun said:
A bit late but anyway: i don't think anything would really change about holy wars. After all, when the majority of holy wars took place in history, the humans "knew" that gods were real. The kind of spiritualistic monotheism that says there is really only one god and people just call him different is a pretty modern invention.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" was not written by people who thought those other gods were mere fiction.

But if the Gods and their followers are essentially a political unit, then the war is not religious: it is purely political and religion is just war and politics by other means.

sirensix · Mar 17, 2009

Most holy wars have little to do with actual religion, at their heart. It's about who gets to control things socially/politically. Although the Muslims in Iran may SAY that they kidnap, imprison, and torture Baha'i's because they are sinful heathens, it's really because the things that Baha'i's teach, if widely accepted by Iranian society, would call into question the infallibility and right to rule of the extraordinarily powerful Muslim clergy. So the violence against Baha'i's is very much about retaining secular power.

Your monotheists, even though they know the other gods exist, may feel threatened by the different power structure/clergy of the other faith and so they may want them wiped out. And vice versa. In order to wipe out the clergy you have to wipe out the faith. Reason enough for a "holy" war.

Nivarion · Mar 17, 2009

you know, this reminds me of the Belgariad by David Eddings. In the story the god Auldar (or some spelling like that its been a long time since I read them) Made an orb that would give any one using it unbelievable power. The god Torak wanted it so he basically sucker punches Auldar and steals the orb.

Well, All of Torak's followers are now at war with all of the others because all of the gods are pissed that Torak would do that.

I think that if the gods were a provable part it would be just like with any other war with politicians.

Mr Flibble · Mar 17, 2009

I've just finished an MS with a religious errr skirmish? Smear campaign? One god gets his nose put out of joint when a new god gets very popular ( and therefore leeches faith, and strength, away from him)

Cue religious persecution and trying to prove the new god and his followers are EVUL AND MUST DIE!!! Proceed to framings, hangings and magic sperm.

That last one has nothing to do with a religious war, just thought I'd throw it in

Basically, whatever people can fight about - they'll do it even harder for god/s. And if the god is encouraging them for his own benefit....

Lhun · Mar 17, 2009

Higgins said:
But if the Gods and their followers are essentially a political unit, then the war is not religious: it is purely political and religion is just war and politics by other means.

Not necessarily. Saying it's all just political/economic is a common argument to deflect criticism of religion but it is not always an appropriate defense.
The easiest example are martyrs. There is no non-religious motive possible, since being dead pretty much overrides all political or economic gain. Not so common anyome today though (except in buddhism).
Also, there are many conflicts that are openly attributed to cultural reason instead of religious ones, where it really should be noted that religion is a big part of culture. At least in some parts of the world. Not to mention the obvious example where religious dividing lines in a conflict may not alone cause it, but definitly do a lot to intensify it and make it so much more vicious. Not to mention that religious is not only influential on culture in general, but on eduction especially and consequently on the whole human mindsets. Xenophobia is a pretty ugly part of the human psyche that nonethelss gets promoted and exaggerated by pretty much all the major religions. The sad truth is that if you see religion as a meme trying to promote itself, intolerance, xenophobia and a divine order for convert-or-die proselytizing are elements which are simply very effective in spreading the meme. While tolerance and acceptance are elements that get a meme wiped from the pool.
To quote Weinberg: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

Higgins · Mar 18, 2009

Lhun said:
Not necessarily. Saying it's all just political/economic is a common argument to deflect criticism of religion but it is not always an appropriate defense.

I was thinking more from the point of view of a God. For example, when even His most devout followers never really expected an answer, the King (of Kings) and Priests of Ashur (God of the Assyrian Empire) used to write boastful letters to Ashur. Now what if he had written back and said they were not doing half of what they claimed? Well, that's a political event, not a religious event and wars where the God plays an administrative role are more political than religious.

Lhun · Mar 18, 2009

Higgins said:
I was thinking more from the point of view of a God. For example, when even His most devout followers never really expected an answer, the King (of Kings) and Priests of Ashur (God of the Assyrian Empire) used to write boastful letters to Ashur. Now what if he had written back and said they were not doing half of what they claimed? Well, that's a political event, not a religious event and wars where the God plays an administrative role are more political than religious.

I agree here. I think the difference between a god that regularly interferes in human affairs (or even acts as supreme dictator) and a god that exists but mostly stays in the background is much greater than the difference between a god of the latter kind and a fictitious one. Heck, history provides pretty good examples again. There have been many dictators who had their people revere them as gods, and even if the word god isn't used, the personality cult many of the more modern dictatorships isn't that far off either.

Nivarion · Mar 18, 2009

something I have found interesting about holy wars in real life is that no religion still in existence actually preaches violence.

Even Islam which is accused of preaching violence doesn't really preach violence. (well, it does and it doesn't.) there is a passage about getting killed while fighting infidels and being rewarded with a thousand virgins, It's been a while since I read this, but I always interpreted it to mean that if an infidel is trying to force you to stop believing in Islam, and kills you as you resist then you will be rewarded. I mean, Hell it has a lot of passages about loving thy neighbor and all of that in it too.

So holy wars are the awful events when politicians get their hands on a religious power, and can then use it to drive a people to a whole new level of war they couldn't otherwise.

Like the pope in the middle ages. He had a lot of secular and religious power, and that's bad. Using these powers again and again the popes called crusades against the middle east for being a religious threat. So even though the religion has nothing to do with it, religious wars are purely political.

if I've made any sense at all.

Lhun · Mar 18, 2009

Nivarion said:
something I have found interesting about holy wars in real life is that no religion still in existence actually preaches violence.

It is actually quite easy to argue the opposite position here. Because pretty much all religious texts are very contradictory, not to mention open to interpretation. And seriously, the people claiming their religions preach peace have no better reasons for their interpretations than the people claiming their religions teach violence.(though they wouldn't call it that way)
Personally, i always thought it is a bit funny how even the people who claim to stick to nothing but a literal interpretation of their holy book still twist those words in ways they like. (see the shellfish thing)
But because of that, saying religion x teaches peace is never entirely correct. Usually, it can be interpreted as being peaceful. But it also can be interpreted differently. Just because today we see religion as a generally positive and spiritually healthy thing today doesn't mean that the peaceful and tolerant versions are any more correct than the versions of those people who wish the good old dark ages weren't over and you could still burn unbelievers at the stake.
Thing is, religious violence, as in holy wars, is every bit as multi-faceted as any other kind of human violence. Saying it's all the religions fault is wrong, but saying it's just political and economic causes in disguise and religion has nothing to do with it is no more correct.

Nivarion · Mar 18, 2009

I have to say, Love thy neighbor, Do good to those who hate you, when thy enemy smites you on the cheek turn the other to him also, are not very open to interpretation.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 18, 2009

Nivarion said:
I have to say, Love thy neighbor, Do good to those who hate you, when thy enemy smites you on the cheek turn the other to him also, are not very open to interpretation.

And there are equally clear quotes going in the other direction. But let's not turn this into an argument over any specific religions, thank you.

Nivarion · Mar 18, 2009

okay I wont.

Lhun · Mar 18, 2009

Nivarion said:
I have to say, Love thy neighbor, Do good to those who hate you, when thy enemy smites you on the cheek turn the other to him also, are not very open to interpretation.

Neither are "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them shall surely be put to death", "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning" or many many other quotes. The interpretation is in the choosing which parts to accept as commands and which ones to call metaphorical or allegorical etc. And there isn't more foundation for the liberal christians for example to pick their selection from the bible then there is for the likes of Fred Phelps.

Higgins · Mar 23, 2009

Nivarion said:
something I have found interesting about holy wars in real life is that no religion still in existence actually preaches violence.

In the past people were as real as they are now. Their lives were as real to them as yours is to you. they lived in times and places where the Aztec Empire waged wars to capture people and sacrifice them to their gods. they lived in worlds where the Knights Templar were Holy Warriors living in the same Mountains with the Assassins who were also Holy Warriors. There have been plenty of religions that have not only preached violence, but trived on it.

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