Rewriting Woes Rant - ignore me.

SFLP · Mar 4, 2009

[rant]
This morning, I critiqued a piece in SYW, a partial first chapter, where the author was concerned that she was getting a crit for *that* chapter, because there wasn't any sex in it. EL and I agreed that a bit more needed to happen in the 1700 words posted, and then he said:

"Someone once told me you need a little hook in 250 words and a destination in 1,000."

Well, I went back to my main WIP today and I've been rewriting my first three chapters this evening (which are now my first two chapters, at least) and I'm going nuts. If there's a hook in there anywhere, I can't find it.

The female protagonist is a commercial photographer. The scene opens with her going to her Friday hangout with friends on the day that she found out that all the studios on her floor of her building have been broken into, with everything that wasn't stolen, was trashed.

From there, in two chapters, I've got to introduce her, the two male protagonists, four critical but minor characters, move her studio to the male MCs house, push her off a balcony, burn her house down, and total her car (she's having a bad week, obviously) so that she ends up co-habitating with the two guys, because sex won't happen until then, and it isn't instant when she gets there.

Ever tried to keep the attributions straight for *seven* people? Mostly, it's a conversation between Rachel and one other character, but...sheesh. (I think I can introduce one of the minor characters later. That will save me about 50 word. lol.)

It's suspense/thriller/mysteryish kind of story, so there's a bunch of "the gun is on the mantle in the first scene" stuff going on...I can't leave it out of the beginning of the book. I have hacked and hacked at this thing and got it all down to about 7000 words, but that's still 7000 words where we aren't even CLOSE to sex. Maybe I should just make Rachel a nun and have Michael and Eli get it on. lol.

Annnd, in Chapter 3, there's a lot of innuendo and flirting until finally, FINALLY, about 2000-3000 words later, Michael is screwing some babe and Rachel watches.

That's 9000-10000 words before anyone actually has sex. Once the sex starts, it's pretty constant after that, but Jeez Louise...10,000 words? And that's at a minimum so far as I can tell.

I can't figure out where I can cut any more without a chance of making the dialog sound stilted and losing threads in the plot of the suspense story and and and and

And.

And.
[/rant]

*sigh* Maybe I'm in the wrong genre.

Just had to rant. I'll beat on it more tomorrow.

:Headbang:

G'night

ELMontague · Mar 4, 2009

Perhaps you mistake my comment. The 250 hook and 1,000 word destination just mean we have to one, care enough to read more (250) and know what the problem is (1,000). That roughly translates into page one and page five.

And there are more experienced writers than me to comment. I've just got a big mouth. And I read a lot, which means I buy a lot of books.

SFLP · Mar 4, 2009

Eh, it wasn't just your comment, EL - lol - I hit that AFTER I'd edited all this stuff and realized it was 10k words to sex. I'll figure something out I was just sitting here going bugshit and nobody I know is online right now.

sunandshadow · Mar 4, 2009

SFLP said:
she found out that all the studios on her floor of her building have been broken into, with everything that wasn't stolen, was trashed.

That sounds like a hook to me.

Darklite · Mar 5, 2009

What are you more worried about, the book not having a good enough hook or that there’s no sex for 10000 words? Personally speaking, I can go 10000 words with no sex (even with an erotic novel), as long as the characters are interesting enough to carry it. There can be sex on page one but it means nothing to me unless I can connect with the characters. From what you’ve got so far, I’d agree with sunandshadow, the story does sound like it has a hook to me.
It might be a good idea to let the early chapters rest a while and come back to them with new eyes in a few days.

ELMontague · Mar 5, 2009

They have a good point. You don't need sex on page one.

Soccer Mom · Mar 5, 2009

ELMontague said:
They have a good point. You don't need sex on page one.

In fact, too early sex is even worse than too late sex. We need a chance to know the characters before caring about their sexual encounters.

Maryn · Mar 5, 2009

Without having seen the work, I'm kind of flailing around here, but things to consider:

Does it really take all that happening for her to move in with the guys? It seems as if this is so much action that the sex isn't going to be the interesting part. Maybe this is a suspense novel or a thriller, not an erotica novel at all. If it is an erotica novel, I suspect this needs substantial simplifying.
Do you enter the hook scene as late as possible? Is the hook lean and strong? The scene opens with her going to her Friday hangout with friends on the day that she found out that all the studios on her floor of her building have been broken into, with everything that wasn't stolen, was trashed. Seems like this scene approaches the hook situation sideways. What is the purpose of the hook? To hook. (Gold star for you!) What hooks the reader better, a likable character meeting with friends and hearing bad news about her studio, or her entering her studio and finding it trashed?
While there's no rigid formula, I think you need to keep the reader's mind on sex as much as on other elements of the plot when so much is going on. Maybe you can shorten what leads to the sex, maybe not, but you can surely put the reader inside the MC's head and have her thinking sex a lot, sometimes when it's wildly inappropriate.
If this is a first draft, maybe it needs to be written as-is, including fat and inefficient, before you attempt to slenderize the beginning.
You might find it helpful to loosely adhere to a formula of sorts which controls pacing of events unfolding. I find this one helpful sometimes, although it's for scripts. It does help me structure rising action and force me to shorten the opening and ending.
Remember, you may end up rewriting the whole thing many times, so if you're not happy with this version, it's not life-altering. Just save every version you do, so you can cobble together the best, rather than revising your original.

Maryn, who is supposed to have left the house but is in her nightgown

SFLP · Mar 5, 2009

Darklite said:
What are you more worried about, the book not having a good enough hook or that there’s no sex for 10000 words?

Yes and yes, and *also* that I have chopped stuff back so far that I've totally trashed the pacing.

The sex in this story escalates (or is supposed to) with the suspense, in two parallel, inter-related story lines. In the beginning, Rachel just seems to be having an insanely bad run of luck. As it progresses, it becomes apparent someone is trying to kill her. Later, when it seems like everything is OK and they've figured it all out, so she should be safe and sound, the guy is STILL trying to kill her (he's obsessed with her at that point) and not being at all subtle about it.

But the sex is an integral part of the *suspense* story line.

What I've done in trying to move the sex earlier into the story is take what was once four chapters, make it three chapters, then down to two chapters. Acky.

I actually have been trying to think of some way to interject a sex scene earlier (lol - even my husband is making suggestions at this point) but every sex scene in this story actually has some sort of purpose, whether it's tied to the suspense part of the story or the romance part of the story. (I guess I could have made that paragraph much shorter and said "I'm trying to add a sex scene earlier without making it gratuitous.)

J.

SFLP · Mar 5, 2009

Wow, long post even for me

Without having seen the work, I'm kind of flailing around here, but things to consider:

I wish I had enough to show you at this point. I did before I started editing yesterday, but now I've got six chapters ripped all to heck.

Does it really take all that happening for her to move in with the guys? It seems as if this is so much action that the sex isn't going to be the interesting part. Maybe this is a suspense novel or a thriller, not an erotica novel at all. If it is an erotica novel, I suspect this needs substantial simplifying.

See my thread a couple of weeks ago (might have been the first one I started here) on "Too much story for erotica?" lol.

The two guys she is moving in with, Eli has been one of her best (platonic) friends for YEARS. These days, Eli has a roommate, Michael, who Rachel can't stand, I mean, REALLY can't stand. Up until now, she won't even hang out at Eli's house any more due to Michael. The studio being broken into is part of the suspense plot *and* it's a reason to get her back IN the house, working. (Eli has a great darkroom, or as Rachel put it "You've got great equipment.")

The balcony scene - maybe that could go, but it's not that long. It's part of the suspense plot, not part of the romantic/getting-her-to-move-into-the-house plot...but since the next thing that happens is her house burns down, I've got to use it then or nowhere. (And I really had to wrack my brains to come up with ways that someone might try to kill someone, and make it look like an accident. I think there are seven accidentals and several more obvious attempts, at this point.)

Upon reflection this morning (and because I no longer want to throw my laptop into the snow) I *could* move the car wreck until after she moves in. Currently, it's the reason she finally agrees to move in because Michael is actually concerned (as opposed to trying to get in her pants). I'll think on that. If I did, it would cut another short scene.

If I take the sex out, the suspense plot no longer makes sense. If I leave the sex in, trust me, it's erotica

. I can't think of a non-erotica publisher who would touch it.

Do you enter the hook scene as late as possible? Is the hook lean and strong? The scene opens with her going to her Friday hangout with friends on the day that she found out that all the studios on her floor of her building have been broken into, with everything that wasn't stolen, was trashed. Seems like this scene approaches the hook situation sideways. What is the purpose of the hook? To hook. (Gold star for you!) What hooks the reader better, a likable character meeting with friends and hearing bad news about her studio, or her entering her studio and finding it trashed?

The scene opens with her friends (I didn't want to waste time with her going to the studio...I'm more interested in how she feels about it and how her friends feel for her about it, than I am in the fact the studio was broken into. The first scene with the three MCs and the four minor characters is important as more than just an introduction. Of these four friends, two of them are actually the villains and two of them you *think* are the villains earlier in story.

If I start with the studio getting trashed, I'm actually starting *earlier* in the story, not as late as possible.

While there's no rigid formula, I think you need to keep the reader's mind on sex as much as on other elements of the plot when so much is going on. Maybe you can shorten what leads to the sex, maybe not, but you can surely put the reader inside the MC's head and have her thinking sex a lot, sometimes when it's wildly inappropriate.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out a way to add a *purposeful* sex scene somewhere in there. There is[/] innuendo, a lot of it, flirting, etc.

Initially, I did *not* introduce Michael in that opening scene; it was a separate scene after the opening scene. In trying to shorten this up, I dumped that scene and put him at the bar, instead. Maybe I'll put it back and have that second scene open with Michael/sex if I can think of some way to do it without making it look gratuitous.

If this is a first draft, maybe it needs to be written as-is, including fat and inefficient, before you attempt to slenderize the beginning.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's the pacing pacing pacing thing. As I move ahead in it, I find that some parts that I expected to be at a certain pacing *aren't*, so I needed to rework some. Then I realized how far it was until the first sex scene (and it was wayyy more than 10k words, though as I said, once they get started, it's sex sex sex sex, which was screwing up pacing on the OTHER side of the story.)

You might find it helpful to loosely adhere to a formula of sorts which controls pacing of events unfolding. I find this one helpful sometimes, although it's for scripts. It does help me structure rising action and force me to shorten the opening and ending.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Remember, you may end up rewriting the whole thing many times, so if you're not happy with this version, it's not life-altering. Just save every version you do, so you can cobble together the best, rather than revising your original.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm thinking I should have picked something a lot less complex as my first long work. (And I've never written suspense, I just read a lot of it.) I've been jumping over to my novella-ish length empath story now and again for a break.

I adore the plot of this story. There are little threads woven all the way through that I hope will keep the suspense-story as interesting as the sex/romance-part of the story. (This thing has a few sex scenes in it that just...do me, every time I read them. When you consider how many times I've read them...I'm pretty happy with 'em.)

If I let it get *too* fat, a *complete* rewrite would be very, very difficult from the suspense side. Certain things *must* happen at certain times in the story, if that makes sense.

On the other hand, there's that "your first novel will languish in a drawer forever" thing, so maybe it's not an issue

Anyway, I have a toothache today, so I'm taking the day off. I'll take a look at that link and consider stuff some more. Between reading these and other suggestions, and sleeping on it (I always end up doing editing way too late in the day...I should start with it, instead) I have some ideas, provided I can implement them without screwing with the pacing even further. lol.

J.

SFLP · Mar 5, 2009

Maryn said:
You might find it helpful to loosely adhere to a formula of sorts which controls pacing of events unfolding. I find this one helpful sometimes, although it's for scripts. It does help me structure rising action and force me to shorten the opening and ending.

Maryn, that is a great link, thanks. I was relieved to see that I'm actually at about the right length for the setup, at least screenplay-wise. As a matter of fact, I'm golden up until the "point of no return" - I get a little messy in there, probably because so much is going on, and even *I'm* not sure where the "point of no return" is. (In my head, for the suspense part of the plot, the point of no return was about a week before the story starts...the romance side is a bit clearer.) I'm not bad in the last few stages, either. So I'm not so far off as I thought, which is good.

I'm doing a new loose outline of this thing, keeping these points in mind, so I can figure out just how badly I've trashed it.

Thanks again,

J.

MargueriteMing · Mar 6, 2009

SFLP said:
[rant]
This morning, I critiqued a piece in SYW, a partial first chapter, where the author was concerned that she was getting a crit for *that* chapter, because there wasn't any sex in it. EL and I agreed that a bit more needed to happen in the 1700 words posted, and then he said:

"Someone once told me you need a little hook in 250 words and a destination in 1,000."

Well, I went back to my main WIP today and I've been rewriting my first three chapters this evening (which are now my first two chapters, at least) and I'm going nuts. If there's a hook in there anywhere, I can't find it.

The female protagonist is a commercial photographer. The scene opens with her going to her Friday hangout with friends on the day that she found out that all the studios on her floor of her building have been broken into, with everything that wasn't stolen, was trashed.

From there, in two chapters, I've got to introduce her, the two male protagonists, four critical but minor characters, move her studio to the male MCs house, push her off a balcony, burn her house down, and total her car (she's having a bad week, obviously) so that she ends up co-habitating with the two guys, because sex won't happen until then, and it isn't instant when she gets there.

Ever tried to keep the attributions straight for *seven* people? Mostly, it's a conversation between Rachel and one other character, but...sheesh. (I think I can introduce one of the minor characters later. That will save me about 50 word. lol.)

It's suspense/thriller/mysteryish kind of story, so there's a bunch of "the gun is on the mantle in the first scene" stuff going on...I can't leave it out of the beginning of the book. I have hacked and hacked at this thing and got it all down to about 7000 words, but that's still 7000 words where we aren't even CLOSE to sex. Maybe I should just make Rachel a nun and have Michael and Eli get it on. lol.

Annnd, in Chapter 3, there's a lot of innuendo and flirting until finally, FINALLY, about 2000-3000 words later, Michael is screwing some babe and Rachel watches.

That's 9000-10000 words before anyone actually has sex. Once the sex starts, it's pretty constant after that, but Jeez Louise...10,000 words? And that's at a minimum so far as I can tell.

I can't figure out where I can cut any more without a chance of making the dialog sound stilted and losing threads in the plot of the suspense story and and and and

And.

And.
[/rant]

*sigh* Maybe I'm in the wrong genre.

Just had to rant. I'll beat on it more tomorrow.

G'night

You're a writer, make some shit up. Is your MC single? Does she have a one night stand? Maybe she likes to take pictures during the act? Maybe she snaps a pic that sees out the window, and catches something important in the background that matters later? Maybe to do with the breakin? Or not? It's a mystery, you're allowed red herrings. But you get your reader hooked, and draw them into your MC's world.

MargueriteMing · Mar 6, 2009

sunandshadow said:
That sounds like a hook to me.

Yeah, just set the hook with the first sentence.

"It was the 23rd shot on the roll that caused XXX all the trouble."

Then go on to show her taking pix of her lover. then talk about how the film didn't get developed right away, because the shutter stuck, or something. Then after the burglary is revealed, get the film developed, and show two guys in a van outside the building staking the place out.

Or just make somethign else up. That's the great thing about writing, you can have ANYTHING happen, as long as you work it in well. Maybe a car crashes into the building, so she snaps some pix of that, and sees the guys. Whatever, doesn't matter, just have something happen.

SFLP · Mar 6, 2009

MargueriteMing said:
You're a writer, make some shit up. Is your MC single? Does she have a one night stand? Maybe she likes to take pictures during the act? Maybe she snaps a pic that sees out the window, and catches something important in the background that matters later? Maybe to do with the breakin? Or not? It's a mystery, you're allowed red herrings. But you get your reader hooked, and draw them into your MC's world.

Yep, she's single. (There's actually more detail about this story, both in this thread and elsewhere.) This character would NEVER take pictures in the act, but one of the other MCs does, later in the story. But she's taken a picture, not in the act and just a snapshot, at the wrong time, and it's very important later. It's also very important before, as it's the reason for the break-in in the first place. There are tons of red herrings here, and throughout the story. My problem is not in figuring out what to put IN the plot, suspense-wise (that part is complicated and pretty well thought out), it's that in trying to move sex up earlier into the story, I'm screwing with the pacing of the whole thing (which is pretty damn important in a suspense novel - lol), and possibly losing the hook.

The link that Maryn posted earlier has really helped.

J.

Rewriting Woes Rant - ignore me.

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

ELMontague

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Darklite

ELMontague

Soccer Mom

Crypto-fascist

Maryn

I Tried

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.

MargueriteMing

MargueriteMing

SFLP

Just tell me to shut up.