Merits of vanity publishers?

Emerita said:

Vanity presses should be put out of business.

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I disagree! There are some good reasons to use vanity presses, if all the fees and expectations are stated honestly up-front. People who might find vanity publishing a good solution are:

a) people who want to publish a small number of copies of a book for circulation among friends, family, or a small group of colleagues, and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish;

b) people who want to publish a very limited-interest niche book with a small and specific market (like a history of a very local landmark that would be sold at tourist sites and shops in that area only), and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish;

c) people who have a career as a speaker or workshop presenter, and who would like to create an accompanying book or workbook that can be sold at their lectures or workshops, and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish.

Now, if you can do your own self-publishing or find a good self-publishing consultant who will do the set-up, etc., then that's probably a better deal, financially, than vanity publication. But not everyone can do that.

That said, nobody should pursue vanity publication unless a) they've accepted that their book is not going to be sold in bookstores; b) they are willing to risk the cost; and c) they are confident that the vanity publisher delivers a quality product and adheres to the letter of its contract.

I have to say that I respectfully disagree with ICE here:

IceCreamEmpress said:

I disagree! There are some good reasons to use vanity presses, if all the fees and expectations are stated honestly up-front. People who might find vanity publishing a good solution are:

a) people who want to publish a small number of copies of a book for circulation among friends, family, or a small group of colleagues, and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish;

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Given what most vanity press publications look like, I'm not sure what extra time or skills would be required to make the self-publishing route at least equal in terms of quality. Many vanity presses don't typeset or format manuscripts, let alone spell check them...so at that point, what's the difference with even an unskilled self-publisher? Kinko's can get you a neato binding and nice colorful paper if that's the concern.

b) people who want to publish a very limited-interest niche book with a small and specific market (like a history of a very local landmark that would be sold at tourist sites and shops in that area only), and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish;

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Such books can sometimes be funded by grants from the local area or historical society--and since we're not talking about high quality stuff, the cost is relatively minor anyway. Some university presses will also deal with these kinds of books at times (though in that case the author would have to meet some quality standard).

c) people who have a career as a speaker or workshop presenter, and who would like to create an accompanying book or workbook that can be sold at their lectures or workshops, and who don't have the time or skills to self-publish.

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But again, what time or skills are we talking about? How difficult is it to get a manuscript bound which wouldn't be quality checked at a vanity press anyway?

Now, if you can do your own self-publishing or find a good self-publishing consultant who will do the set-up, etc., then that's probably a better deal, financially, than vanity publication. But not everyone can do that.

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Why not?

That said, nobody should pursue vanity publication unless a) they've accepted that their book is not going to be sold in bookstores; b) they are willing to risk the cost; and c) they are confident that the vanity publisher delivers a quality product and adheres to the letter of its contract.

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Amen to that. Of course I respect ICE's opinion greatly, but I disagree with her general premise here: the vast majority of arguments in favor of vanity publishing essentially can be answered with a self-published book, at a much better financial cost. Naturally both models are complete death to any kind of a serious writing career 99.9 percent of the time, but as stated above, if people know what they're getting into and don't have any long term aspirations as an author, then self-publishing could be a good option. And I fear that giving anyone the idea that vanity publishing has any redeeming qualities is a dangerous path.

Just my two cents.

Phoenix Fury said:

Amen to that. Of course I respect ICE's opinion greatly, but I disagree with her general premise here: the vast majority of arguments in favor of vanity publishing essentially can be answered with a self-published book, at a much better financial cost.

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I agree completely.

But I think there are people who make a considered decision that they would rather pursue vanity publishing than true self-publishing. I have known people who were happy with that decision.

I would always argue for true self-publishing, though, and for those who don't have even the most basic computer skills there are a lot of ways to find competent, affordably-priced consultants to manage that end of things.

And rather than work with a large national/international vanity publisher, I would encourage people to instead work with a local printer--it's much more likely that they'll get a quality product.

That said, I think calling for vanity publishers as a group to be "shut down" is inappropriate, because there are people who use them in full understanding of what they can and cannot provide.

But I do think that any vanity publisher who misrepresents its services, or what it can deliver, should go away. And that, at least in my belief, includes most of them.


On edit: Sorry to contribute to the off-topic drift! Maybe a mod will prune some of this to somewhere more suitable.

This interesting conversation arose in one of the agency threads in Bewares & Background check. I've ported it here, where it can be discussed separately.

- Victoria

Real "Vanity" publishing outfits (Trafford, Dorrance, Vantage, etc.) depend purely on up-front charges by authors for producing X copies of a book, with no significant attempts at distribution. They are nothing more than very expensive printers. Very few bookstores will even look at a title produced through them.

Some other "self"- publishing outfits are quite legit, notably Lulu. They don't pretend to be anything but a printer, with a few optional frills, should you want those. At base, they cost nothing up-front, and make their profit off individual book sales, either to, or by, authors. They are an excellent choice for niche books, like club handbooks, family histories, class manuals & materials, etc. I know (not personally) of one Civil War buff who has reproduced a bunch of out-of-copyright memoirs, histories, etc., related to that, in a very nice format. I purchased another historical account of an exploration through New Guinea via a Lulu author, and found it quite good. But don't expect to hit the NY Times bestseller list via this method.

And we have an entire set of massive threads about PublishAmerica here, so no further comment is required about them.

caw

IceCreamEmpress said:

But I do think that any vanity publisher who misrepresents its services, or what it can deliver, should go away. And that, at least in my belief, includes most ALL of them.

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Fixed.

No, no, kidding. And what you say makes sense. But I guess the point should be that self publishing is almost always a better solution than vanity publishing, even if you've exhausted your other options (of which there are many, by the way, including reputable small presses and the like).

I shall now list the positive aspects of vanity presses:




















That is all.

I came to this thread looking for enlightenment as to why vanity press is worthwhile. Haven't been enlightened.

But it does remind me of a family member who spent years writing his memoirs, then handed it to his sister who read it only because she felt obliged to. She then told me that most of the childhood memories were not as she remembered them, and that he had twisted things to make him look great throughout his life and that it was totally wrong. I remember thinking it's all subjective, and it's probably totally right for him. It never even made it to vanity press despite, I think, his wishes that it would.

scarletpeaches said:

I shall now list the positive aspects of vanity presses:




















That is all.

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That's a serious slap at blank space, you know.

Is Xilbris considered a vanity publisher because they've been calling and e-mailing me for months?

I politely told the guy that called yesterday, I don't have a book ready to be published at this time, but when I do, I'm going to look for an agent and a contract before I consider self-publishing.

I think the first thing to do is define what is meant by vanity, because different groups of people use the word to mean completely different things. For example Using Lulu but paying an add-on fee for one of their recommended editors or cover artists--that is an upfront fee but is it "vanity"? I think it is more of a continuium.

...reading through this thread I've found out a few things I didn't know about Vpubs. For one, they pester people to get them to sign up for their services. Pretty annoying :-(

I don't think they should be put out of business, except for a certain infamous one often written about here. It really amazes me that this "publisher" can get away with what they do.

Emerita said:

Yeah, Dorrance was after me for awhile.....they backed off when I said I decided not to self publish.....

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Wonder what they would have done if you had said you decided not to go with a vanity publisher...which is what Dorrance is, of course. You dodged a bullet there, Emerita!

I was reminded recently of the perils of vanity presses. At a social function I ran into an elderly man I know slightly who "published" a book through a very small and obscure vanity press. He has a bitter attitude toward publishers in general because of his experience. His book is one of the sort that could not be published any way but vanity or POD, a local history. But if he had shopped around some, had some better advice, he might have done much better, even ten years ago. Presently he has a good many copies of his book, while if you search for it online you will find only a couple of used copies for sale at an exorbitant price.

It is very sad. This man is intelligent, and a fine artist, but knows too little about publishing to avoid being taken for an expensive ride. Every time I see him, he tells me that authors do not get paid, they have to pay the publisher. I haven't got the heart to tell him about Yog's Law, or explain the difference between writing for a small audiece vs. writing a novel.

It does not follow that all vanity publishers are underhand, and those who tell you there is never a need for an author to pay to have a book published or that all vanity publishers are 'bad', simply display a lack of knowledge and understanding of the publishing world.

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http://www.vanitypublishing.info/index.html

Cheers,
Rob

The author should be paind good money.

Rob is correct, although there may be a difference between a vanity publisher and a book printer, like Lulu, even though the author still pays for publication. In poetry, chapbooks are frequently published (printed) at the author's expense since there is such a small market via traditional publishers.

From that same article that Rob quoted (see his link above), the following quote really nails the reality of vanity/self-publishing:

If you cannot find a mainstream publisher to publish your work at their expense, you must look on the whole process of publishing not as money invested to make you a return, but as money spent on a pleasurable hobby which you have enjoyed and which has provided you with well-manufactured copies of your book. If you do also manage to make a small profit, then that should be looked upon as an unforeseen and unexpected bonus!

Exceptions do exist, and the vanity publishers always highlight them to try to draw in customers, but the odds of a bestseller coming from vanity-published book may well be in the Lotto range.

It does not follow that all vanity publishers are underhand, and those who tell you there is never a need for an author to pay to have a book published or that all vanity publishers are 'bad', simply display a lack of knowledge and understanding of the publishing world. http://www.vanitypublishing.info/index.html

Cheers,
Rob

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Or they may be displaying a much more developed knowledge, one gleaned from years of experience of seeing vanity publishers pretend to be something they are not, taking in (and down) desperate and unknowing authors left and right.

Sorry, I'm not buying. Find me a vanity publisher which goes out of its way to stress how little like a regular publisher it actually is. I'm sure there are a few, but the vast majority of these places are misleading at best and downright liars at worst--because they know they're ultimately selling something which people could do for themselves, and at considerably less money. If I walk across a busy street in Manhattan at rush hour without looking and survive (a vanity press not pretending it's a regular press) that's lucky for me. If I then take that circumstance as the norm and recommend it to all my friends and family as a great thing to do (all vanity presses are like this!), I'm being foolish.

Self-publishing is by far the better option if your other alternatives--of which there are many--are exhausted.

Phoenix Fury said:

Sorry, I'm not buying. Find me a vanity publisher which goes out of its way to stress how little like a regular publisher it actually is. I'm sure there are a few

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Well, if you're sure there are a few then I guess you're saying you agree that not all vanity publishers are underhand, which is consistent with the quoted text.

Was that your intention? Is that your position?

Cheers,
Rob

RobJ said:

Well, if you're sure there are a few then I guess you're saying you agree that not all vanity publishers are underhand, which is consistent with the quoted text.

Was that your intention? Is that your position?

Cheers,
Rob

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My position is that straw men are fun to knock down, but not much use in an argument. The fact that a few vanity presses are honest about their intentions and what they will do and not do for an author is, based upon the law of averages, a virtual certainty. But to be frank, so what? Why is this important? If the vast majority of vanity presses are unreliable, disreputable, disingenuous and expensive, while self-publishing (along with small presses of many descriptions, to say nothing of writing a better book) is a better alternative in nearly every case where a vanity publisher is being considered, why waste time (and confuse matters in the process) by bringing up the one in a million exception to the rule? I'd rather we focus on the real issue, which is leading authors to honest and cheaper alternatives, than searching for a very small needle in a very large haystack.

Nothing at all personal, of course, Rob, and that article makes some good points. I just think the section you quoted isn't particularly germane to what we're talking about here.

If the only difference between vanity and self-pub is that vanity presses charge a lot more, then who needs them?

I'm with Phoenix ... and Rob's reply that "saying they're not ALL bad" somehow validates the main argument is just silly. If the best you can say about an industry is that they're not all bad, then who needs them?

The basic premise of the vanity pubs is deceptive. Their ad blitzes in mass market magazines rave about "getting published", and are just trolling for suckers. They don't say "get (sort of) published and be left in a half-assed limbo where you have to fight for one shred of respect".

Any of the above arguments for limited editions and tiny niches can be filled by Lulu (etc). The vanity presses remain unique in their predatory position and deceptive claims. Presses with a conscience go out of the way to distance themselves from the term.

I liked Fizz's comment about the Lotto range -- but, um, how do you get a bestseller AT ALL for something with a limited printing and no support? It's worse than a lottery. I can't support any businesses which are borderline fraud. Yeah, they can mince words and say they only offered to print books, but their ads do scream "GET PUBLISHED." Is that all that publishing means? I don't know why it's legal to dangle that carrot and then screw with your "customers." It's a classic "bait and switch" scam.

I see no argument (here or anywhere else, or over 20-odd years of dealing with authors and publishers) to acknowledge or support vanity anything.

Emerita said:

Well, that shows you how much I know....... I thought they were only out to scam people. Good to know they all aren't bad.....

What is a Boutique Agency? I found an agent the other day that calls her agency a Boutique agency......

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Geez, no one answered this, but who knows. You could ask her.

scarletpeaches said:

I shall now list the positive aspects of vanity presses:




















That is all.

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Phoenix Fury said:

That's a serious slap at blank space, you know.

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It's also plagiarism! Scarletpeaches is a plagiarist! Someone hit the Red Triangle!!!

nighttimer said:

Is Xilbris considered a vanity publisher because they've been calling and e-mailing me for months?

I politely told the guy that called yesterday, I don't have a book ready to be published at this time, but when I do, I'm going to look for an agent and a contract before I consider self-publishing.

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Geez, I've never gotten any such emails. Perhaps I should post more about that manuscript I have in the trunk...and to think I could have copies of my book in the trunk...

But really, this is spam, and if they don't stop when requested, forwarding it to the sender's ISP and webhost should stop it really quick.

Ken said:

...reading through this thread I've found out a few things I didn't know about Vpubs. For one, they pester people to get them to sign up for their services. Pretty annoying :-(

I don't think they should be put out of business, except for a certain infamous one often written about here. It really amazes me that this "publisher" can get away with what they do.

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