March Book Study - Lord of Light

Hello, and welcome to the SF/F Book Study.

This thread is for discussion of Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny.

***Spoilers*** will be streaking through this thread unpredictably. You have been warned.

If anyone wants to compare to previous book studies:
[URL="http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111104"]Ender's Game (August)
Lies of Locke Lamora (September)
A Deepness in the Sky (October)
A Fire in the Deep (November)
Storm Front (December)
I Am Legend (January)[/URL]
The Onion Girl (February)

Thank you to Broken Fingers for starting the book study!

Cheers,
Christina

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Here is the list, compiled by Fingers, of possible discussion topics. Feel free to tackle something off the list or come up with your own points.

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First of all: Did you enjoy the book? Why or why not?
What was your impression of it?

And I’ll list some of the possible things we can discuss:

The Beginning:
- How effective was the opening hook?
- How effective was the first sentence? The first paragraph? The first page? The first chapter?
- When were you pulled into the author’s world? By the end of the first chapter?
- If not, when?
- How do you think this was accomplished? Or why do you think it wasn’t accomplished?
- What would you have done to change it/make it better?
- If you were an editor, what would your reaction be to the first chapter?
- Why do you think the average reader liked it so much?
And more…

The Protagonist:
- What did you like/dislike about the protagonist?
- How did the author introduce the protagonist?
- How did the author get you to become invested in the protagonist?
- What was different about the protagonist as opposed to other protagonists? What was the same? Did the author make the protag distinguishable? If so, how?
- What techniques did the author use to show the protagonist throughout the story?
- What were some of the characteristics the author gave the character and how did they work/not work?

The Characters:
- Did the author make the characters come alive for you?
- How did he/she do this?
- How were they described?
- How were they distinctive?
And more…

The Setting:
- Was the author’s world convincing?
- Did he/she make you feel you were there? How?
- What about the setting did you like? Not like?
- What would you have done differently?
And more….

The Plot/Story:
- Did you enjoy it? Why or why not?
- Was it different or similar to other plotlines in the genre? How?
- Was it believable? Predictable?
- Were there any twists, turns or surprises?
- Would you have thought of it? How does it compare to your own plotline of your WIP?
- Did it pull you through or did you have to wade through it?
- How was this done or how do you think it should’ve been done?
- If you were buying stories for a publisher, and this manuscript hit your desk (not knowing what you do now about its sales) would you have bought it or expected it to be successful?
- Why do you think the buying public enjoyed it so much?
- What variations, if any, would you have added to the storyline/plot?
And more…

The Style:
- What did you think of the author’s style of writing? Like it? Hate it?
- How much do you think this had to do with the success of the book, if any?
- What type of POV was used? How effective was it? Would the book have turned out different if the POV were done differently?
- How removed was the author from the story or how intrusive?
And more…

The Structure:
- How did the author unfold the story?
- Were the beginning, middle and end equally strong?
- How effective was the way the author gave you all the information?
Was it straightforward? Suspenseful? Predictable? Surprising?
- Could it have been done another way?
- Was it a linear structure or did the scenes jump around? How did this add/detract from the story or your enjoyment of it?
And more…..

The Theme:
- Was there any? What was it?
- Did you think it had an impact on your enjoyment of the story?
- Was it blatant or subtle?
- Do you think the average reader registered this?
- Do you think it may have affected him/her or contributed in any way to the success of the book?
And more…

Conflict:
- What was the main conflict?
- How was it handled?
- Was it a large part of the story or did the author keep it lying under the surface?
- What other conflicts did the author use in the story and when? (Internal and external.)
- What purpose did they serve?
- Would the story have been as enjoyable with less conflict? More?
- What types of conflict could’ve added to the story? Which conflicts subtracted from the story?
And more…

Dialogue:
- Was it realistic?
- Was it readable?
- How did the author handle ‘tags’?
- Was there a lot of dialogue or a little?
- Were there dialects? Slang? Profanity? Vulgarity?
And more…

The Ending:
- Was it satisfying? Why or why not?
- Did it come as a surprise or did you see it coming from page two?
- Would you have ended it the same?
- Was everything resolved?
- Would you be able to write a sequel?
- Would you buy another book from this author?
And more….

I haven't finished, but I have one thing to say: Any book that is worthy of Pratchett's ongoing mockery is okay by me.

Library apes should be universal

First, I'd like to remind everyone (or announce) that this Thursday we are having a Lord of Light discussion during the official SFF live chat. We've got a few people who have said they'll definitely come, so it should be a good chat. The details are in my sig, and the transcript will be posted here for continued discussion. So, The 19th (tomorrow!) at 9PM EST, in the AW chat room. Hope to see everyone there.

Now, on to my comments:

Scott Cole said:

Zelazny for me is a 'love it' or 'hate it'.

Click to expand...

I can totally see that, but I was very torn on this book. I wanted to love it, but it kept giving me a headache. More below.

Smiling Ted said:

One of the things that grabbed me is on the very first page - the way the story begins in a traditional, mythological voice, and then undercuts it almost immediately: "He preferred to drop the maha- and the -atman, however, and called himself Sam."

Click to expand...

That was well done. However, I think he tried too hard to be clever at times. Intentional use of pronouns to avoid revealing someone in a scene, confusing (to me) writing--particularly in relation to the world building. It took me a long time to get used to it and to not scream when he did something to distance me from the story.

Half way through the book I had to find a summary to make sure I was following correctly (I was, but I'd not picked up on some details, so that was helpful). A little ways after that I finally got used to the story, the time hops, and the other annoyances and was able to read and follow along. (and forget the summary)

NicoleMD said:

I tried hard to get all the way through this (I managed about two-thirds), but I never really connected with Sam. Plus it got a little tiresome trying to remember who was in whose body, and keeping all of Sam's dozen different names straight.
<snip>

Click to expand...

If you got two thirds, you might like the ending. Just arm yourself with a summary and character list. But I agree with your other points.

Basically I think he did too much. It was a good story with interesting concepts and characters, but he really needed to keep it simpler. My betas yell at me when I try to be too clever and I think Zelazny would have benefitted from their disapproval

The so SF that it's Fantasy was an interesting idea. I also liked how he used the 'I want to use your telephone' line to convey that there are people who remember such things, yet it is an ancient technology, yet(!) here we are in this medieval world. Very fun.

Given all that though, I'm not sure if I'd pick up another of his books. If the style was more straight forward I might be game.

Can anyone who enjoyed the book help us draw on its strengths more?

Oh, I agree some of his concepts were great and deservedly clever. I too got a laugh out of the ancient sign joke, though I had to pause and consider for a second.

By overly clever I was referring to the larger structural parts of the writing. The time hops, the keeping hidden of who someone is, so on. Some is okay, but too much is frustrating and distancing. I know his style works better for others, and I guess I would have liked to have been drawn in more so that I could be free to pick up on more of those finer details.

Make sense?

Alright, as I warned (in the chat thread), we were holding the LoL chat even if there was a small crowd. There were three primary chatters tonight, but a lot of good discussion. Here's the transcript, any further discussion is welcome-

@BahamutBrat What did you think of the characters in this novel? How did the SFF elements add to those characters?
ELM Once I'd gotten into the book Yama and Sam were good.
@KittyPryde and Tak!
ELM I didn't feel much for Kali or the others.
@BahamutBrat I thought Sam was very interesting
@BahamutBrat There was so much to him
ELM I liked the idea of Tak, but he wasn't fleshed out.
@BahamutBrat but he was almost too laid back up until the end
ELM Sam was very interesting, but it took a long time to get him settled into his many names.
@BahamutBrat Tak definitely could have used more flesh
@BahamutBrat He was a fun character and looked to have a lot behind him
ELM That was actually my biggest issue with the beginning of the book. We get Yama and Ratri and Tak
@KittyPryde i think if one is up one's knowledge of buddhism in india, it's easier to deal with all the names
ELM then we drop them.
ELM for a long time.
@BahamutBrat Yeah, I couldn't figure out what Ratri was doing or what her backstory was
@BahamutBrat the intro was too sudden
@BahamutBrat and then we dropped her
ELM True. I learned a few gods I hadn't thought of.
ELM At about 150 pages I went back to figure out Yama/Ratri and Sam.
ELM They are introduced as friends and then spent the book as enemies.
ELM I didn't know much about Kali.
ELM Only that the thuggee worshipped her.
ELM thanks to Indiana Jones.
ELM Some of my programmers are from India and I've chatted up Hinduism/Buddhism with them.
@BahamutBrat I am far too ignorant on the religions to have gotten the full amount from this book
ELM But outside of a few basic gods I didn't not know the pantheon.
@BahamutBrat I should have studied up
ELM My father is a retired minister.
@KittyPryde yeah, a little extra background goes a very long way for this book, for sure
ELM I've spent my whole life surrounded by religion.
@BahamutBrat I found the Aspects interesting
ELM I plan to read the RgVeeda to get up to pace, but have the read the Quoran first.
@BahamutBrat almost hard to suspend disbelief since it was so sciencey
@KittyPryde when you guys were reading, did you think of the characters as SF characters, or as fantasy characters?
@BahamutBrat but it worked
ELM SF characters.
@BahamutBrat I was really thrown by the SF elements at first
@BahamutBrat I really wanted it to fit fantasy
ELM He gave us enough SF to let me hold that in the back ground.
@BahamutBrat toward the end it became more acceptable as totally SF to me
ELM I was interested in the concept of a real Buddha.
ELM and that the real Buddha was an assassin.
ELM at first.
@KittyPryde to me, the SF kind of went by the wayside, because the characters want so much to impersonate the mythological deities
ELM I think that was part of his statement.
@BahamutBrat That's interesting EL, since the assassin came after 'Buddha' in LoL
@BahamutBrat The religious elements were a large part of the story. How did the interplay between various factions work for you? What did you think of Lord Nirriti the Black and his zombies? And how did mixing these 'convoluted' religions with SFF elements work for the story?
ELM I thought it funny, and very sixties, that Death was a Christian missionary.
@BahamutBrat I totally missed that
@BahamutBrat do you know roughly where that was mentioned?
ELM If you recall, Sam said that he was only a fake Buddha... his disciple was the real thing.
@BahamutBrat yes
ELM Lord Nirriti was a Christian.
@KittyPryde i have to trot out the old Clarke quote here: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
ELM His zombies were Church people.
ELM Like Spanish conquistadors.
ELM That's a very true statement.
@BahamutBrat And they all said their prayers before battle
ELM Ignacious Loyola said that the miracles of nature and science are proof of the magic of God.
@KittyPryde i really loved the idea that these people had all the high tech scifi gadgets ever imagined, and they wanted to use them to sort of reenact mythology, cause it was so cool
@BahamutBrat I thought it was a very bold move for him to have the Christian man leading zombies
@BahamutBrat talk about insulting many of your readers!
ELM Every smart person in the sixties wanted to say that western religion was evil.
ELM it was part of the time.
@BahamutBrat Kitty, I think that really added to the light/humorous feel of the novel
ELM and yes, I know that's an exaggeration.
ELM Kitty, I think the whole using science to subjugate people was part of the story.
Maxmordon Makes me think on all those European artsy films from the 60's and 70's
ELM the point of the story really.
ELM agreed, Max
@KittyPryde yes--but using a form of science that imitated magic
@BahamutBrat So does anyone know if this book really stirred things up when released?
ELM I don't.
@KittyPryde well it won the hugo
@BahamutBrat Or was it not famous/recognized till later?
@KittyPryde so the nerds were all over it at least
ELM God save the nerds.
ELM Or Gods I suppose.
@BahamutBrat It was also nominated for a Nebula
@BahamutBrat so lots of big names enjoyed it
@KittyPryde wikipedia says:
@KittyPryde In 1979 it was announced that Lord of Light would be made into a 50 million dollar film. It was planned that the sets for the movie would be made permanent and become the core of a science fiction theme park to be built in Aurora, Colorado. Famed comic-book artist Jack Kirby was even contracted to produce artwork for set design. However, due to legal problems the project was never complete
ELM I think Zelezany was trying to say something about the nature of people.
@BahamutBrat That would have been a fun film and park
ELM if you give a ship full of sailors/astronauts the ability to set themselves up as gods, they will.
ELM Lord of the Flies style.
@BahamutBrat Yeah, I found that very interesting
Maxmordon Ever heard of the Prince Philip Movement?
@KittyPryde what pantheon would you choose if you had your own spaceship and superpowered tech?
@BahamutBrat particularly since they weren't divided in castes straight away
ELM No, what was it.
Angelus Cavemen vs. astronauts who would win?
@BahamutBrat but it was Firsts and their kids
@BahamutBrat and ancestors
ELM Greek or Egyptian sound fun.
@BahamutBrat Not the traditional division of power
ELM Greek particularly.
Maxmordon a bunch of silanders in Vanutu thinks Prince Philip is their god
@BahamutBrat Astronauts, Angelus
ELM Astronauts. Ask the natives about that one.
@KittyPryde I would choose the chinese buddhist pantheon
@BahamutBrat But Sam did alright without embracing godhood
@BahamutBrat Alright, last question
ELM Aboriginal people all over have been subjugated by a few men with powerful toys.
Angelus That astronauts wouldn't
@BahamutBrat There were many humorous or satirical elements in the story. One example- the inscription on Hellwell's gate that reads (roughly) "Go away. This is not a place to be. If you do try to enter here, you will fail and also be cursed. If somehow you succeed, then do not complain that you entered unwarned, nor bother us with your deathbed prayers." Signed, "The Gods."
@BahamutBrat -What light or humorous moments in LoL did you enjoy? How did they fit with the rest of the story?
ELM I don't really know the Chinese buddhist pantheon.
@BahamutBrat For example, it started out with 'he preferred to go by just Sam' in the opening
ELM I like the video phone
@KittyPryde I thought sam in general being flippant and rebellious in general was cool
ELM And truthfully, I thought that making Tak a monkey and a son was a good touch. That actually made one of the gods a monkey's uncle.
Maxmordon since their legends talk of a white man who was the son of God and married an important woman and when the Brits came they thought they worshiped Queen Elizabeth they said 2 plus 2 makes 4 and they worship good old Philip
@BahamutBrat Sam was the Monkey's grandpa
ELM is that the same bunch that built the under ground city?
ELM Father I thought.
ELM When he was caught stealing the belt, wasn't that the side story.
ELM With the pretty young goddess of dreams.
@BahamutBrat Not sure EL, I can't find it
ELM Actually, the difficulty I am having making my points on this story point out the real trouble.
@BahamutBrat I think because it was all confused
ELM I finished that book only two books ago and I can't remember any names but Sam, Yama and Tak.
@BahamutBrat There wasn't one thing, imo
ELM I remember the point of the story, but not the story.
ELM I think a simple story told well is better than a complex story told well.
ELM This one was too complex.
ELM IMO
@BahamutBrat Something I found hilariously absurd- The Irish stand down on page 200 (of my copy), right before the big battle.
ELM Of course, I like other more complex tellings.
ELM Remind me of the scene.
@BahamutBrat All this tension building up, and they start punching each other
ELM Ah yes.
@BahamutBrat Sam and Kubera take turns hitting each other
ELM Though I found it fitting.
@BahamutBrat If Kubera wins, he takes Sam to safety
ELM It had a 1960's western feel to it.
ELM right.
@BahamutBrat Alright, any final points or comments?
ELM I'm glad I read it, but I don't think I liked it.
@BahamutBrat I think I'll have to re-read it again
ELM I've got too much to learn to try that one again.
@BahamutBrat It's not a long book, and if I did my homework and kept a character list, I think I'd really enjoy unraveling it on the second read
Skyrish with knowledge of Indian religions...its wonderful
Skyrish samyaksambuddha

And further reading suggestions:

Maxmordon The Satanic Verses by Rushdie, haven't read it but heard is quite good

The authors Vandana Singh and Anil Manon were mentioned as well.