Script Analysis

[nganok]

OK- I've written my first two scripts- had them editted by a writer friend of mine and now I'd like to get script analysis from one of those fancy smanchy cover guys in the back of my latest Creative Screenwritier Issue. Is this good next move or not? ? ?

[JustinoXXV]

Well, check out those script consultants. Some of them are scam artists who don't have the background.

There are experienced and credited screenwriters on this site who do script analysis. I think one of them would be better, as we know their background and we know that they are trustworthy people.

I don't want to sound like I'm endorsing one or the other, so I won't mention any names directly.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/screenwriting/interviews.htm

A bunch of those people interviewed by Jenna do script consulting. As do some people here who are on this forum (up to you guys to tell this person what you do). So just talk to them about what they offer and decide which ones is the best fit for you.

[IWrite]

OK- I've written my first two scripts- had them editted by a writer friend of mine and now I'd like to get script analysis from one of those fancy smanchy cover guys in the back of my latest Creative Screenwritier Issue. Is this good next move or not? ? ?


Ngan -

It can be a great move or a waste of money depending upon how good the analyst is. Not every writer makes a good analyst - not every analyst is good. Some analysts critique based on personal taste as opposed to offering an objective critique.

Coverage and an in-depth analysis are two different things. Coverage is the internal evaluation that agencies and production companies use. It's normally 2 or 3 pages equally divided between a plot synopsis and an overview of the strengths and weaknesses of the script and a final recommendation. Coverage is often accompanied by a grid sheet that grades particular elements (i.e. dialgue, set-up, characterization, etc.) Scripts whose coverage get a recommend are passed up the ladder - scripts whose coverage gets a pass are rejected.

Coverage services replicate these internal reports. A recommend on coverage from a coverage service means nothing to anyone but you (except in those rare instances where these services also act as liasons to agents for the scripts that get a recommend) Coverage can give you that outside perspective that your script doesn't totally suck - which is nice to know (although it's only one person's opinion and one reader's recommend is another reader's pass) - but it's not going to provide you with the type of information that will help you make it better. Coverage is more about pointing out what works or doesn't work as opposed to analyzing what works or doesn't work. A page or so of evaluation and an excellent - to - poor rating on the script elements is more about finding out where you are then getting you where you need to be.

Script analysis is a more in-depth evaluation. Evaluations are detailed reports (anywhere between 6 and 20 pages) that breakdown scripts into different areas and point out exactly what the problems are - the best analysts also provide ideas on how to fix those problems. Many analysts also provide development notes on the script itself - just as you would get from a development executive or producer during the professional rewrite process. Some analysts will offer one-on-one consulting time to go over your notes and then will read your revised draft based on the notes. Some will act as writing coaches and help you through the rewriting process. Some will act as a liason to agents, managers, etc.

A good analyst can make a huge difference. I've seen scripts go from really weak to sellable in one or two drafts. But a lot of that has to do with the talent of the writer in question, the fact that the writer had the ability to absorb the criticim and execute.

The cost for analysts vary - some like Linda Seger charge thousands of dollars - others charge a couple hundred. I used to charge around $750 (more if I did page notes) - I never had one client who didn't think it was worth the money.

[JustinoXXV]

I honestly didn't want to mention names, but on the off chance someone reads Iwrite's Post and thinks that he or she must spend thousands of dollars to get their script analyzed, Noooooo!

Joe Calabrese, the forum moderator, does script analysis for $200.

Jim Vines, who was interviewed by Jenna, charges somewhere between $.75 and $1.00 per page, depending on the level of service you order from him.

Jon Dorf, playright/screenwriter, charges $2 per page

There are others, all of whom were interviewed by Jenna, who charge reasonable rates.

People like Linda Seger are used by STUDIOS.

I don't think anyone who has a writer's best interest at heart would charge or recommend a beginning writer spend thousands, or even close to $1000 on script coverage. If someone suggests you put out that kind of money, RUN. Only studio productions have any business shelling out that kind of money.

I apologize, Joe and Jenna, if I've violated some forum rules (I didn't feel comfortable posting prices here). But a newcomer could think he or she has to spent $750 to thousands from Iwrite's post, and that isn't true.

Just because someone has the biggest name around as a script consultant doesn't mean that their coverage will be better than other qualified people, including other professional screenwriters.

I personally got some excellent coverage for free. Now I am using a script consultant (paid) for an assestment. But still, I don't see how Iwrite can seriously suggest that a novice screenwriter should spend that much money on a "script consultant" particularly when said writer has only written a couple of specs.

If you really have thousands to blow, you might benefit from entering screenwriting programs at universities like UCLA or NYU. At the end of the program they'll give you one evaluation for free, and obviously as a part of the course you write screenplays which are graded.

[Joe Calabrese]

Justin.
I think you're overreacting a little. I don't think Iwrite said you SHOULD pay thousands of dollars. In fact Iwrite said"

"... some like Linda Seger charge thousands of dollars - others charge a couple hundred."

I, as like many of those who provide coverage for a fee, charge around that few hundred.

Will you get the same notes from me as opposed to Linda for hundreds less? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree that not every analyst is good at what they do. Ask them what results writers have received from using thier coverage ask them for a sample.

My biggest recommendation to anyone looking for coverage (besides spending money on me of course), would be to have as many people read it, both writers and laymen alike. Join a writer's group, zoetrope, triggerstreet. Have as many eyes look at it and then take the advice and comments and put them in a pile. Look for common threads. If one person said "I hate how your character drinks light beer," then it's personal taste, BUT if 90% of your readers say the same thing... Well, it's a flaw that should be addressed. writer's groups are a valuable service.

If and when you want to pay for coverage, do so because you have exhausted all other avenues and still feel the script lacks.

[IWrite]

I honestly didn't want to mention names, but on the off chance someone reads Iwrite's Post and thinks that he or she must spend thousands of dollars to get their script analyzed, Noooooo!

Justino - I never said you had to spend thousands - as Joe pointed out I gave the range. I'm not going to judge the quality of anyone's analysis that I haven't seen - but I think in a case of someone like Linda Seger - you get what you pay for (I've seen hers - I know her). You are correct that she works for the studios - but she does in fact offer her services to "regular Joes" - and a regular Joe that chose to go to her could probably save themselves a minimum of three drafts and add texture and character shading that they would never come up with on their own.

I don't think anyone who has a writer's best interest at heart would charge or recommend a beginning writer spend thousands, or even close to $1000 on script coverage. If someone suggests you put out that kind of money, RUN. Only studio productions have any business shelling out that kind of money.

No offense Justino - but this is big bunch of poo. Every consultant that I know - and I know quite a few who charge quite a lot - is passionate about helping writers. They also believe that what they do has value and they charge what the feel it's worth.

Some hairstylists charge $20 / cut, others charge $200. The Jose Eber's are not ripping people off - they just believe that their talent and knowledge is worth that much and those who choose to spend it can spend it. And while the amount one charges does not necessarily reflect their ability - I'd bet my bottom dollar that Jose Eber gives a better cut than any hair stylists that works at Supercuts.

When I did consult I'd spend about 10 hours total on each script - $75 an hour for the service I was providing was reasonable. $20/ hour (which is what it would be if I was charging a couple hundred - was not reasonable in my eyes. I could get paid $20 / hour for TYPING someone else's screenplay - story consulting - script development requires more of me and from me than typing and as such deserves considerably more compensation. I wasn't just analyzing - I was teaching and guiding as well.

It's a free market - there are hundreds of options out there and all different price ranges. For me, part of the beauty was that those who were willing to put that type of money I charged toward consulting services - were not hobbyists (which does not necessarily mean they were all good or talented) they were dedicated to pursuing a writing career, which means they were willing to do the hard work and take the tough criticism - they wanted to learn and improve. They came to me because they KNEW they weren't where they needed to be and wanted to get there. It made my job easier and more gratifying.

And just for clarification - Justion. I was not, repeat was NOT talking about coverage. I am talking about analysis and consulting. Personally, I think any coverage is a waste of money, because it points out what's bad, but doesn't tell you what's bad about it. And I agree with you that a class at NYU or UCLA is the best investment of your screewriting dollars.

But consultants are not necessarily just for the newbies. I still consult ocassionally and my clients are working writers - repped, produced, on assignment - and incidentally I charge them considerably more than 75/hour.

I agree that a writer should wait until they really understand the craft before investing in a consultant - and I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone should go to a consultant or needs one - but many of those who charge at the high end may well be worth the money.

[nganok]

This is what I love about this board, so many different views, but ultimately "I get smarter" and my instincts are sharpened. Every script I write is a prize fight while each time I come to the board I get good sparring. Thanks guys. Joe - how do I get in touch with you once I'm ready for your services.

[scripter1]

several simple tests you can put your script through in order to discover where you are in your writing.

1) Post a logline.

This will reveal a great deal about your skills and the concept of your story. Some problems may be readily apparent.

2) Post a few pages in the pages forum here or at DoneDeal. There is a pretty good chance you'll get some interesting insights and some helpful advice. If there is an issue, we'll find it.

3)Try triggerstreet or zoetrope. Lots of novices, some real trolls, but usually there is something to be learned. Once in a while a pro will respond.

Like Joe said, if one or two people mention something it's probably just personal taste but if you get three or four similar comments then you should seriously consider the validity of the comment.

If you get favorable responses and after you've fixed what ever issues might have been identified then do a little research and find someone you like and trust. Joe has given solid advice on the boards so I believe he would be a safe bet.

Bill Martell who runs scriptsecrets will give you excellent feedback though he has said his fee is high to ward off people who are not serious. (I think it may be 400 or 500 dollars. He would be worth every penny.)

There is a topic at DoneDeal about script services and quite a few recommends.

[JustinoXXV]

Iwrite, I apologize if I overreacted. While I've never been scammed, I certainly have come across them so forgive me if I'm a little sensitive to these things sometimes.

And yes, I understand that consultants are not necessarily just for beginners.

[JustinoXXV]

"2) Post a few pages in the pages forum here or at DoneDeal. There is a pretty good chance you'll get some interesting insights and some helpful advice. If there is an issue, we'll find it.

3)Try triggerstreet or zoetrope. Lots of novices, some real trolls, but usually there is something to be learned. Once in a while a pro will respond."

I'd say a screenwriter should chose very carefully who he or she lets read his work. I joined a writer's group once. Three of the writers royally trashed each other and had a huge fight. That was the end of the group, and I will never attend another writer's group again.

Also, people may decide that they totally hate a script or a movie because it has some elements that they don't like. A person who hates gays isn't going to like a gay themed screenplay no matter how well it is written. A person who hates witches isn't going to like a fantasy with witches.

That's where the value of a good script consultant can come in, ideally they'll be objective and tell you what things work and don't work in your script structurally. They may even steer you towards markets that your work fits.

I recently got an indepth analysis from a producer who liked the potential of my script, but hated it's structural and dialog flaws.

Even if a person who isn't familiar with screenwriting totally loves your work, they won't be able to tell how to make it better. And that's what you really need. Along those lines, I'd definitely say avoid Triggerstreet. I'd even question asking a group of people on this forum for that kind of help, as you'll often get conflictling advice. Find someone that you trust and whose background you know. If you can work with that person, contact them privately if they are able and willing to work with you as a script consultant (for those who are qualified).

[zagoraz]

I would also recommend avoiding Triggerstreet. Some of the worst screenplays I've ever read in my life are some of their 'site favorites.' It's basically peer feedback from people with very little knowledge or experience. And because most reviewers are trying to work their way up through the rankings, it's hard to get any kind of objective feedback from them (You're their competition.) I applaud what they are trying to do there, but you'd be spinning your wheels taking much of their feedback with more than a grain of salt.

[scripter1]

when you can get some decent advice for free?

(and I even run my own editing and feedback service.)
The same people you trust with your questions on the boards are the same ones that will read your pages and give you feedback. There are several people here who are very willing to read five or six pages and can, will, and have given wonderful advice.

The pages forums are always busy and most of the time things go pretty well.

You may get some goofy comments and some people (like me) will comment on anything and everything that bugs them BUT I can guarantee you that if the regulars (like me, Dpaterso, Joe, Iwrite, Maestro, etc) are around then you'll get great feedback.
(sorry if I left anyone out.)
If you don't believe me then check out the pages boards and see what other writers have received.

Sometimes another writer might not be as skilled a story teller or word smith but they could have other talents and insights that you will find useful.

I remember a new writer here who's script included a scene with an airplane that had just landed. The writer obviously didn't understand or think about the logistics and realties of aircraft and the scene simply would not work the way it was written.

I worked at the airport for a year and was able to give him very specific info and facts that improved the scene.

Now I will be quite blunt. REAL writers will know if the advice and feedback is sound or not.
SERIOUS writers will have done some personal study, grasped the basics, and be able to compare the advice to what they all ready know to be correct.
And they will ditch the junk.

Anybody who can't sort it out should move on. Time and again it has been proved that the fools, the unskilled, and the lazy are the ones that resent feedback.



Nganok, spend an hour or two reading posted pages and the feedback given. You may become aware of your scripts problems just by doing that.
Sometimes you can see the problem in another's script but not in your own because you are too close to your writing.
Then you read YOUR OWN pages and go "Crap, I did the exact same thing."
You will at least inform yourself and then be able to decide with intelligence whether posting pages is for you.

Do it, do it, do it.
I prooooooomise it won't hurt................



.................................................. .............................much.

[NikeeGoddess]

Creative Screenwriting did an extensive consumer reports article on 25 different consultants. If you called them for that back issue then you'll see what i'm talking about. They took one script to each consultant and posted the reviews and what the writers got out of the process. They also did a cost analysis.

Check it out!

[IWrite]

when you can get some decent advice for free?

BUT I can guarantee you that if the regulars (like me, Dpaterso, Joe, Iwrite, Maestro, etc) are around then you'll get great feedback.
(sorry if I left anyone out.)
If you don't believe me then check out the pages boards and see what other writers have received.

Scripter you are comparing a crumb to a 5-course meal. Yes I'll take 15 or 20 minutes to read 10 or so pages and give feedback on those pages - for me it's a pay it forward kind of thing. But I'm not gonna take 5 or 6 hours to read an entire script on these boards and give a detailed evaluation - I'm not that generous.

Real analysis is micro and macro - it takes the entire flow of the script into account, the entire character arc. It puts every element under a microscope and then takes a step back and evaluates the entire script as a whole. It is a multi-level evaluation.

Again, I'm not suggesting that people spend money on a good consultant and I am not dissing the feedback you can get on boards like this (if you are lucky enough to get feedback from a Joe or DPat) - but don't think for one minute that feedback on a couple pages is the same thing as a real Professional, high quality analysis of a script.

[scripter1]

of a script can and often do reveal major problems for a novice writer.

There is no point in paying money to read the whole script when it might be fatally flawed from the get go.


Writers will repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
If they can be shown in their first five pages how, where, and why they are losing the reader they then can go on and fix the entire script, saving themselves 45 to 100 bucks.


MAYBE THEN a good consultant can be called in for the detail work.


Sure a very well written script's flaws may not be apparent until one reads the whole thing, gets the entire picture but HONESTLY man, I mean REALLY HONESTLY in your experience

how many novice writers can make it through the first 5 to 10 pages with out making SOME kind of basic mistake or having elements that could be improved?


Why pay a highly skilled person to find those things when a message board member is perfectly happy to do it for free? And capable.

Nganok may be a very talented writer and able to write a great script.
Then again he may only just be okay and could use some nudges forward.


If we on the boards can tell a new writer "You're blocks of description are too bulky, I just can't accept this one character's actions, the dialog is on the nose, you left one of your major characters doing nothing during this scene, and you'll NEVER be able to get that horse to walk across the rope bridge," then we may have given this writer enough tools to carry on and get that script in tiptop shape.


Sometimes all people need is to have their minds opened to script issues and then they can go on and apply general advice to the entire script.
It's like washing your face in the morning and getting the goop out.
Your eyes get opened.


Most new writers have so many basic story and script problems that they aren't ready for big time script consultants.
Problem is, THEY don't know they aren't ready.

It's like attending grad school when you're still in ninth grade.



Iwrite, how many people do you know that eat five course meals?
Most of us are pretty darn happy with a couple slices of pizza or a burger, a lasagna here and there, and pot roast with potatoes and carrots on Sunday.
Maybe some ice cream for dessert.


Sure we want more then crumbs but we don't NEED a formal dinner.






OH, and when you post pages PLEASE keep them to five or six pages.
And don't post the whole script in five page sections either.

[Joe Calabrese]

I think that most writers are so close to their work, or write with such a fevered determination, that they can never be totally objective and see the errors they make, or the weakness they know exist, but still make those mistakes anyway.

That is why it is important to get unbiased opinions whenever and wherever they can, whether it be free or for pay.

If I was rich, I would give Mamet whatever he wanted to read everything I have-- twice.

But alas, I am but a poor man and can afford very little. So I get dozens of people (both writers and non) to read my work for free and weed through the crap and bonehead advice and single out the rare pearls of wisdom that come in until I have an idea of were the weaknesses and errors are. Then I hope that the fix is better than the original.

Sure a novice or layman can't give advice on structure, three act, beats, characterization or formatting, but they may have some comments that will give you a wake up call and see an error or weakness. I let my hairdresser read one of my scripts and sure she had no idea what she was talking about. But she said one thing that made me think. She said that it was hard to understand because two lead characters had almost the same sounding name. She also said I had a lot of characters that made it confusing. She never knew who was in the scene. I agreed and changed it.

I belong to a regular writer's group with 8 to 10 members who meet each month at someone's house. After two years, I can call these people my peers and my friends. Everyone there is about at my writing level, with few below and some above. We read each others work (1 to 2 submissions a month) and for 2 hours we cut the crap out of it. This by far is the best tools at our disposal. Join a writer's group or start one in your area. If you are an hour drive from a big city, chances are you will find people to join who are worth their weight in gold.

Of course people have likes and dislikes and that will reveal in the feedback. Of course no one person is an expert, but may still offer advice that is worthwhile.

Even an expert may not give you everything but they are focused more and more knowledgeable it the craft. If you decide to go the pay for advice way, think about using me (just kidding). Use someone who has something to offer and can show you samples of their reviews. Pay what you can afford and don't put off a mortgage payment so you can get a review of your work.

[scripter1]

I think that most writers are so close to their work, or write with such a fevered determination, that they can never be totally objective and see the errors they make, or the weakness they know exist, but still make those mistakes anyway.

Hit the nail right on the head there Joe.

Also novice writers can often sense that something is wrong but have no idea what, or why, or how to go about fixing it. They've read all the books, articles and tips but understanding the concept is one thing, being able to apply it is another.

[IWrite]

Scripter -

Not every person who is looking for feedback on this board is a novice. There are people at all different levels of the craft - from those who don't understand the basics to people like Joe who've had options, sales and writer for hire gigs. And every single one of them wants feedback to make their work better.

You act like the basics i.e. strong dialogue, descriptions, etc. is all that you need to judge in order to tell the quality of a script. Not by a longshot. That's only the tip of the iceberg. That's what separates the Good from the Bad from the Ugly. But those who are good (i.e. not passed on by page 5) are judged at a much higher standard on the big picture elements - story, pace, character development, outer conflict, inner conflict, overall style, tone, storytelling etc. You cannot give a writer helpful feedback in these areas if you've only read a handful of pages. You need to read from page one to page 120 - to give a helpful analysis on the whole script.

And the quality of a scene or two does not necessarily represent the quality of the whole script. Sometimes writers get stuck on a scene so they execute poorly - doesn't mean the whole script is as bad. I've read full scripts that had a couple of brilliant, shining - perfect scenes - plonked down in the middle of a 110 page pile of poo. I've seen scenes that make me groan and grimace - in the middle of an otherwise fabulous project. I've seen stellar dialogue in a lousy story and lousy dialogue in a stellar story and a great concept with a weak second act.

Iwrite, how many people do you know that eat five course meals?.

All the (in your words) REAL, SERIOUS writers I know want to know how to get their script good enough to sell. Never met one who said "no, just help me improve the dialogue, I don't care if the character arc sucks."

I don't know how you work - but when I did evaluations my objective was to break down the script and tell the writer what he needed to do - to reach a place where it was not just better - but good enough to actually have a shot of getting produced. Many writers didn't get to that place in one rewrite - but my goal was to give them tools to get there - to give them a thorough enough evaluation - not just what to do - but also guidance on how to do it, so they could return to the notes on successive drafts. I did this regardless of what level of the craft they were at - although with the less experienced writers - I'd include a lot of explanations and lots of examples.

I basically approached my notes the same way I approach a script in development. Regardless of where it was - I focused on the path to take it to where it needed to be.

I am not saying that the feedback on these boards can't be helpful - but I am saying that micro analysis of a few scenes is not the same thing and it cannot address the big-picture overall story issues. Those issues are extremely important and should not be overlooked. And encouraging understanding of things like dialogue without fostering understanding of the bigger elements of storytelling makes no sense to me - in fact - it's kinda backwards. In film school we studied the overall structure of story, character, etc., before we learned about things like diaogue or how to build a scene. You can sell a script with a great story and weak dialogue - you can't sell a lousy story no matter how great your bon mots are.

I know you mean well, Scripter - but I get the feeling that although you know some things, you think you know more than you actually do.

[Joe Calabrese]

Oh come on Iwrite... quit with the "think you know more than you actually do" crap. Adding that little tidbit lessened the professionalism and credibility of an otherwise good, solid argument.

As a man once sang: "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them."

[IWrite]

Oh come on Iwrite... quit with the "think you know more than you actually do" crap. Adding that little tidbit lessened the professionalism and credibility of an otherwise good, solid argument.

As a man once sang: "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them."

I calls them as I sees them, Joe.

You want the good, you gotta take the bad and the snotty on occasion.

"a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when the little bit's imparted as actual wisdom"
-paraphrasing something I read sometime somewhere.

[Joe Calabrese]

Grandpappy used to say sometimes tis betta to keep yer mouth shut and have folks think your a fool, then to open it wide and prove 'em right.

[IWrite]

My Grandpa taught me a different lesson

"Don't be afraid to point out a nude emperor"

[Joe Calabrese]

"Don't be afraid to point out a nude emperor"
Only if you get a kick at looking at naked, fat old men. :box:

For those of you who are thinking of answering my last post with a "then why are you here?" remark, I beat you to it. :ROFL:

[JustinoXXV]

Once, only once, have I gotten an indept analysis on a screenplay of mine for free.

It's the RARE soul who is going to give you that kind of quality feedback for free.

My main concern earlier on this thread was I slightly misunderstood Iwrite and I thought she was definitely saying people should use Linda Seger.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with her.

I don't want someone to read 2 pages of my script and decide they don't like it. I want someone to read the ENTIRE script, and give me a detailed analysis of the story, the pacing, the structure, the dialog, etc. It's why I paid a script consultant who was recommended to me by someone I know. And it's why I registered online for the UCLA screenwriting program (at the end of the certificate they analyze one script for free). I truly want to learn how to become the best screenwriter I can be.

[scripter1]

Are you the writer of "Mother in Law?"

[scripter1]

I totally agree with you on all your points.

I've just learned from experience that during the page posting process things tend to get drawn out a little. The writer starts to reveal more of their story trying to explain why that scene, or character, or dialog has to be that way and THAT explanation can reveal the more serious story issues.
Mmmmmm, like maybe there really isn't a story there after all. They may have posted a cool scene but the general idea is, how did you put it?
Poo.
No, page posting is not the cure all. But it is a reasonable and FREE start.

I hate to see a new writer just barely out of the gate and the first thing they think about doing is plunking down a load of cash.

"I don't know how you work - but when I did evaluations my objective was to break down the script and tell the writer what he needed to do - to reach a place where it was not just better - but good enough to actually have a shot of getting produced. Many writers didn't get to that place in one rewrite - but my goal was to give them tools to get there - to give them a thorough enough evaluation - not just what to do - but also guidance on how to do it, so they could return to the notes on successive drafts. I did this regardless of what level of the craft they were at - although with the less experienced writers - I'd include a lot of explanations and lots of examples."

We're on the same page then.

When I offer feedback on a script my objective is to have that writer out grow me in only one or two rewrites and then not need me again.
I don't just work with the script, I work with the writer THROUGH the script.

When I offer feedback I pin-point EXACTLY in a script where the problem occurred and then fully explain WHY it is a problem and how it can be fixed. I also point out how an earlier mistake gradually built up over the script to create a larger issue. And then I explain how it could be fixed, usually giving them several examples, and how to avoid that in the future.

Sometime I ask the writer leading questions to help them come up with the solution themself. If there is a movie or produced script example I will give it.

I comment on everything from word choices to structure and pacing. Yes even character arc and theme.
(You wouldn't believe how many scripts I've read that expressed a perfectly marvelous theme in one scene and then completely ignored it both for and aft.)

I also send my clients articles from pro writer Bill Martell that focus on and address the specific issues of their script.

I find his tips inspiring and very clear.
(Yes I have his permission to use them.)

[JustinoXXV]

"Mother in Law?"

Yes, I am. I wasn't speaking of that script when I mentioned a detailed analysis for free.

" No, page posting is not the cure all. But it is a reasonable and FREE start."

No offense to people here, and I'm sure that page feedback offers valuable insights. But I don't think it can ever do enough to solve script wide problems. Someone could post a smashing 5 first pages which the board could help to get even better. But Act II of the same screenplay could be the dullest piece of nonsense.

That's why helping with just a few pages isn't enough to help someone produce a sellable script.

"I hate to see a new writer just barely out of the gate and the first thing they think about doing is plunking down a load of cash."

Alternatively, if a writer doesn't get the proper help, he or she may waste years that could have been spent working as a professional writer had he or she gotten help from the proper resources, whatever they maybe.

A writer who sends of poorly written scripts is wasting a ton of money on postage for the queries, postage for the scripts themselves, printing paper, ink, and associated computer costs (electricity, internet, etc).

If you can do that, you can invest in your future as a screenwriter by taking classes, buying books, using a script consultant when needed, etc.

If you're lucky enough, you may know or come across a professional screenwriter whose willing to mentor you for free. Hey, it maybe rare but it happens. Especially if you have relatives or very good friends in the business. Or you just come across the right person at the right time.

Still, be ready to invest money in your future career as needed. There's no way to be a screenwriter without spending a ton of money over the long term anyway (I'm just counting postage, ink, paper, and related costs).

[IWrite]

No, page posting is not the cure all.

Ah but scripter - you implied exactly that - or at least that posting pages would offer one equal benefits to a complete analysis - your exact words were:

Why pay
------------------------------------------------------------------------
when you can get some decent advice for free?

Nowhere in that entire post - did you talk about it being a good place to "start".

Nowhere in there did you even acknowledge that there are limitations to the type of feedback one can receive from posting a few pages. I would think as a consultant yourself - those limitations would be quite apparent to you.

I'd think that in all your experience as a consultant you would have come to realize that it is often easier to grasp how to write natural dialogue than how to structure a plot. I would think you would understand the importance of plot structuring, so at the very least would have taken a moment to point out to the newbies that they will really need to have someone read the script in it's entirety (whether they pay them or not) in order to get a good assessment on the big picture.

And finally - regarding the feedback on this board. Again I'd like to state for the record - that overall I think the feedback is helpful.

But there are all levels of feedback - the critique you get on your golf swing from the Pro at your club is going to be more insightful than the critique you get from your neighbor who's been playing two months. There is a broad range of knowledge on this board - but there are only a few with a really high level of knowledge of the craft - the higher your understanding the deeper your insights will be. Of the people you singled out only Dpat and I critique work regularly. No one including Dpat and I are under any obligation to do so, no one should feel bad for not doing so. But my point is that there is a very small percentage of people on any of these boards with the knowledge necessary to give professional-quality insight.

I've often been the only person to point out a specific problem - if you go by the "if you hear it repeatedly - then it's probably true" model - then one could easily assume that the flaw I highlighed did not exist. In reality I was the only person who nailed a specific problem - because no one else was looking for it - or no one else had the tools to put their finger on the real problem.

You have repeatedly told people on this board that you do script consulting, which in some eyes will set you up as a voice of more authority than the average Joe. Therefore the information you post may be given more credence. As such you have a responsiblity to make sure that information you give as accurate as possible. You do a disservice when you boost peer critiques of excerpts over a professional analysis without at least pointing out the limitations of excerpt critiques.

[Joe Calabrese]

I apologize for not critiquing lately, (I did a lot up until a month or two ago and let's not forget who created the critique board) as I have been swamped with negotiating a sale and work in general. I will start reading pages and reviewing more.

I wish to point out that many of us, when critiquing here have the opportunity to see the other reviews and as such tend to not repeat or second another reviewer's observation. Iwrite, many times I read your comments or someone elses and say to myself, "yup, that's right." I don't bother repeating that comment since you put it so well.

So where reviewers get to see other reviews, like here, that statement I made about one observation or comment being opinion and a dozen being a worthwhile observation doesn't apply.

[IWrite]

Joe -

I was trying really hard NOT to make you feel bad about not critiquing lately. You have nothing to explain or apologize for.

And I too don't always "second" a comment you make - because you expressed it so well. My point was that someone with your experience and background is more likely to notice things that the majority will not. If you or I or one of a small handful of others don't critique a given excerpt - chances are certain problems will not be pointed out. But an absence of criticims does not mean there is no problem.

[Joe Calabrese]

Of course experienced writers will see things that the layman will not, but do not discount a novice reviewer's value. As I said earlier about my hairdresser, an untrained eye can offer insight (however trivial) or at the very least cause the writer to look at his/her work more closely or with fresh perspective. Having someone say something light, like: "I didn't like that John smokes Marlboro lights." may force the writer to question the character's motivations and back-story. From a small seed, a mighty oak may grow.

We all know the rules, some more than others, and sometimes all is needed an excuse to look over your script word for word to see the errors for yourself.

Of course, If you are an unexperienced writer who read one book on screenwriting, that won't help one bit. They need a lot of books, articles, a consultant or mentor, or a writer's group with seasoned writers to point out a majority of their flaws. For them, having the first 5 pages posted and reviewed here, won't help much. But I have to say that besides critiquing pages, this forum does offer valuable advise with regard to rules, theory and other screenwriting issues. All you have to do is ask. All we have to do is advice and nurture what may eventually be a great talent.

[IWrite]

Having someone say something light, like: "I didn't like that John smokes Marlboro lights may force the writer to question the character's motivations and back-story. From a small seed, a mighty oak may grow.."

Ahhhh - you have just hit on a beat that could twist this discussion in a different direction. And that is concept of evaluating based on personal likes, dislikes and taste as opposed to what works and doesn't work.

Because someone may not like the fact that John smokes Marlboro lights because their father died of lung cancer or because their ex smoked them or for any number of reasons. And bogging a writer down with that kind of criticism is not helpful at all unless you can really pinpoint it - i.e. - he's a vegan Buddhist - the smoking thing seems out of character. Then the writer has something to mull. Although I personally know a vegan Buddhist who smokes like a goddamn chimney, which is actually an interesting character thing.

The less you understand the craft - the more likely you are to evaluate based on taste. I admit there are times when someone may not like something and the reason they don't like it is because it doesn't work but they are unable to articulate - but that happens far less often than someone doesn't like it simply because they don't like it and they criticize it because they don't like it. This is not often helpful to a writer whose goal is to make their script better.

Ironically - I think some of the best evaluations I did were on scripts that were in genres I don't personally like or had major elements that didn't appeal to me taste-wise. The ability to set aside your likes and dislikes is key to being a good analyst.

[Joe Calabrese]

I totally agree with you, however...

Taste (and experience) plays a huge role in any critique whether by a novice reader or a pro. I submitted once to a large coverage house and the review came back so bad, I was utterly shocked. The reader obviously didn't get it. I complained to management that the reviewer obviously hated or had no experience with action films. They sent it to another person who dealt more with that genre and wallah! I got a review that was insightful and well put with valuable suggestions and comments, which made the script rock afterwards.

That is why whenever you send your work out, whether to a analyst, producer, agent, whatever... make sure you are sending it to people who work with that genre.

And when you read someone's review, always look for taste vs. tried and true observations. It's a skill that takes time to develop that is why I get a wide range of reviews so I can look for common threads.

[JustinoXXV]

"The less you understand the craft - the more likely you are to evaluate based on taste. I admit there are times when someone may not like something and the reason they don't like it is because it doesn't work but they are unable to articulate - but that happens far less often than someone doesn't like it simply because they don't like it and they criticize it because they don't like it. This is not often helpful to a writer whose goal is to make their script better."

Exactly why I don't bother with letting those who aren't professionals read my work.

In one draft of a script, I had someone people get high and drunk after the Sept 11th tragedy. One person got extremely upset over the fact that I could so unpatrotic as to have people getting drunk or high after that even. But they did. Later on that day I was in a bar in NYC itself with friends of mine, watching the horrific news (and people were drinking a lot). He also hated the fact I had characters who dealt drugs or who used them. In that script I also had characters speaking an urban dialog, and that would probably kill that person (he's a prim and proper English teacher).

Another person got very upset when I had a married man cheating on his wife.

"Ironically - I think some of the best evaluations I did were on scripts that were in genres I don't personally like or had major elements that didn't appeal to me taste-wise. The ability to set aside your likes and dislikes is key to being a good analyst."

And that's what a screenwriter needs. A good analyst. People who have no industry background may get bogged down in things they really like or don't like.

[IWrite]

And when you read someone's review, always look for taste vs. tried and true observations. It's a skill that takes time to develop that is why I get a wide range of reviews so I can look for common threads.

I think overall this has been a good debate - it's brought up a lot of things for people to consider that will help them in how they view what feedback they do get wherever they get it.

I also think it highlights just how many elements come into play when an agent or producer is reviewing a submission for real.

I agree with you that personal taste comes into play even with pro Readers who do coverage - both at coverage houses and at production cos. And when an agent or producer takes on a project - personal taste definitely plays a part in that ultimate decision. No one is going to invest two years of their life and 10's of millions of dollars into something they are not passionate about. Which is why you need to target your submissions.

The vast majority of scripts that are submitted are rejected due to quality. Once you sift out the bad ones - passion and personal taste come into play.
One man's fruit is another man's candy and even when I read scripts that I don't like - I know if they are good.

My point is that taste should be set aside when giving feedback - it should totally be about quality, strength and weakness. The best analysts are familiar with the elements necessary in all genres - whether they like them or not. That's one of the things that separates a good consultant from a bad one. A consultant should be focused on making it better - they have a totally different mission than a studio reader.

[Chesher Cat]

Mention was made earlier in this thread highly recommending that people take classes at UCLA or NYU. Just as all analysts are not great, all classes, even at those prestigious schools are not great. If you are considering plunking down hundreds of dollars for one of those classes make sure you check out who is teaching the class.

Case in point: I took the most advanced screenwriting class they have in the UCLA extention writer's program. There were 12 spots available. You had to submit a script to get in and were expected to be an advanced to professional writer. The class was set up that everyone brought in pages each week and they were read and discussed/critiqued. Out of the class there were only two of us that were at the advanced level. Some of the people in the class didn't even know how to format a script. The class time ended up being bogged down dealing with issues that had no place at an "advanced" level class.

I can guarantee that the teacher did not read the submitted material. The class was a waste of time and money for me. I didn't learn anything. The only good thing was I made friends with the other writer.

I'm not saying all the classes are bad - it just depends on who's at the helm, so do what you can to check them out. Also, make sure you put yourself in the right level of class - it's better for everyone.

[JustinoXXV]

"I'm not saying all the classes are bad - it just depends on who's at the helm, so do what you can to check them out. Also, make sure you put yourself in the right level of class - it's better for everyone."

Isn't this true of all kinds of classes in all fields at universities in general? Also, I think the general idea is of what a beginners get out of the entire screenwriting program from UCLA or NYU. Not just one class. Ditto for any other program or major.

As for the quality of script analysts varying, isn't this true of any other profession?

When all is said and done, by the time anyone has made it, you will have spent thousands. Classes or analysts, postage, printing, ink, paper, software, etc.

[IWrite]

"When all is said and done, by the time anyone has made it, you will have spent thousands. Classes or analysts, postage, printing, ink, paper, software, etc.

Oooh a twist in yet another direction.

You have to spend thousands (in some cases hundreds of thousands) of dollars to train to pursue any number of professions - from lawyer to hair stylist to pilot to lab techinician to teacher. There is no guarantee that you will find work or have success in the profession you trained for.

You also have to spend money to train in order to pursue many hobbies - i.e. flying. Those who want to improve from novice status often pay for lessons - golf lessons, skiing lessons, tennis lessons, music lessons, horse-back riding lessons, etc.

So why is that so many seem so offended at the idea that people should spend money to learn how to write a screenplay or improve their craft? Writing a screenplay is no more innate or natural than playing the guitar or horse jumping - in fact it might be less innate then many physical pursuits.

Most working screenwriters are formally trained in the craft. Many went to film school, invested tens of thousands of dollars and years of their life in their education. While a formal education may not be necessary to succeed - that doesn't mean that people should have an expectation that they can reach a place where they can compete with those who are formally trained without spending a dime to learn the craft. Some may be able to - but the assumption that most can is erroneous.

And even if one is pursuing writing as more of a hobby - that still doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with spending money for a good class or consultant. Thousands of people take golf lessons every day even though they are well aware they will never be good enough to make it on the PGA tour. We don't consider it a waste of money for them to pay an instructor or coach.

[JustinoXXV]

www.writingforfilm.com (http://www.writingforfilm.com/)

Brooke Wharton, the writer of How the Write Got screwed, mentions here that queries letters do not work in the entertainment industry. Of every successful writer that she's come across, everyone got an agent through industry referral.

I'm not trying to bring up the query debate again, but a lot of writers I've come across like Simon Kinburg got industry referral from their professors/instructors, or their script analysts.

A referral from someone whose in the industry and who knows what a good screenplay is goes so much further they the query/contest route. Not that I'm knocking those two, or telling people not to do it. But with queries, if a production company asks for your work, it had better be fantastic. If they reject you they won't be taking in any scripts from you for a long time. Ditto for the few worthwhile agencies that accept queries.

So you really want an expert or experts to say that you're ready to go out in a major way.