Tolkien's writing, one more time

Greg Wilson · Feb 20, 2009

This is going to be old hat to a lot of you, but I wanted to bring your attention to a new article by Richard Morgan on Tolkien--a criticism of his work, and not a particularly nuanced one in my view (as I talk about in my response to the article, posted on my site here), but the discussion was interesting and I thought some of you might like to weigh in.

Greg

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 20, 2009

Much like your response, the first thing that came to my mind was an underhanded advertisement for his own fantasy novel.

Death Wizard · Feb 20, 2009

Greg Wilson said:
This is going to be old hat to a lot of you, but I wanted to bring your attention to a new article by Richard Morgan on Tolkien--a criticism of his work, and not a particularly nuanced one in my view (as I talk about in my response to the article, posted on my site here), but the discussion was interesting and I thought some of you might like to weigh in.

Greg

I liked your response better than Morgan's article.

Tolkien was a genius and LOTR is genius. His characters have so much richness and warmth. His story is so powerful. I adore LOTR.

Dawnstorm · Feb 20, 2009

I never managed to finish any of the LotR books. Everything I know about is from:

a) Lots of excerpts read in bookshops over the years, whenever I thought I might buy the books

b) Lots of secondary sources, both critical and reader response (the Morgan article, IMO, is the latter)

c) Discussions with people who have read it, some who liked it and some who didn't, and some who know the Silmarillion by heart.

d) The films (both the animated earlier one, and the recent trilogy)

Now, the interesting thing is this: I did read and enjoy The Hobbit. So why can't I get into the LotR?

Personally, I think Tolkien is giving me trouble finding a reading mode. Sometime's it's a fairy tale, sometimes it's an epic, and sometimes it's social realist novel, and it never really comes together for me. This may actually also be Morgan's problem: there's stuff in there that interests him, but it's buried in more stuff that doesn't interest him. If it were a fully fledged epic, singing the praise of our heroes (like, say, Beowolf), or if it was a fairy tale string of adventures (like The Hobbit, which I actually enjoyed) you could deal with it on that level. But that's not what it was. It's way more complex.

For some it comes together, and for others it doesn't. You're right (in your blog entry) that we shouldn't criticise Tolkien for what we think he should have written. But it's somewhat harder if he taunts us with intersting snippets. It's almost like: look, this is what I could have written, but I didn't really want to. Under certain readings, it's almost as if Tolkien criticises himself.

Again, this is just a superficial impression, based on my inability to get into the text, and on the fact that it's not Tolkien that puts me off (I like The Hobbit).

Deleted member 42 · Feb 20, 2009

1. Tolkien said pretty much exactly this, in an unpublished letter that Tom Shippey wrote about.

2. Tolkien specifically said he drew upon his experience in the Somme to write about the Marshes of the Dead.

Nothing to see here folks, move along . . .

Greg Wilson · Feb 20, 2009

Dawnstorm said:
Personally, I think Tolkien is giving me trouble finding a reading mode. Sometime's it's a fairy tale, sometimes it's an epic, and sometimes it's social realist novel, and it never really comes together for me. This may actually also be Morgan's problem: there's stuff in there that interests him, but it's buried in more stuff that doesn't interest him. If it were a fully fledged epic, singing the praise of our heroes (like, say, Beowolf), or if it was a fairy tale string of adventures (like The Hobbit, which I actually enjoyed) you could deal with it on that level. But that's not what it was. It's way more complex.

For some it comes together, and for others it doesn't. You're right (in your blog entry) that we shouldn't criticise Tolkien for what we think he should have written. But it's somewhat harder if he taunts us with intersting snippets. It's almost like: look, this is what I could have written, but I didn't really want to. Under certain readings, it's almost as if Tolkien criticises himself.

Again, this is just a superficial impression, based on my inability to get into the text, and on the fact that it's not Tolkien that puts me off (I like The Hobbit).

This is a thoughtful reply, much more thoughtful than the initial article, actually...I'd have to think through your argument a bit more before responding to it. My only initial objection is that I wasn't really arguing that "we shouldn't criticize Tolkien for what we think he should have written." I was arguing that we shouldn't criticize Tolkien for what we wish he had written for the sake of our argument...for example, that he wrote simplistic stereotypes of good and evil, which, though very effective for an argument about avoiding a black and white moral compass, just isn't true.

That said, I totally appreciate your nuanced point of view, and the others who have commented here. Would that everyone was willing to consider subtlety in the same way...

Greg

Nivarion · Feb 21, 2009

I've read Tolkien through a few times, and the only criticism of his work i could find was that his prose is... too sweet. its like eating a lot of candy, you get a bit sick after a few.

but put it down for a bit and it stops that.

(it could be my suckage at English)

i do love his portrayals of good and evil. There is a line, either you are good or you are evil, but that doesn't mean "Towering Archetype Evil" or "Radiant Good" i mean hell, you want a really rough break down of the shades, look at any D&D out there. and that even is too rough, Tolkien used so many shades of good and evil you could pain a picture with it.

and i liked your comment. especially the Michal Jordan thingy.

oh and wanted to say, the argument would have been valid (even though ignored) if he had left out that little HEY FORK OVER CASH FOR MY BOOK there at the end.

williemeikle · Feb 21, 2009

Maybe he's after "The most gratuitous use of the word 'FUCK' in a fantasy novel" award?

Toothpaste · Feb 21, 2009

I actually didn't mind the essay at all - in fact agreed with a lot of it, I'm not a big fan of the books myself either though I love the films - until it concluded that adults shouldn't like children's books (he essentially concluded that LOTR was for kids and then asked what "adult" would read them). As if somehow children's books are a lesser form and not worthy to be read by adults. As if there isn't any merit in a children's book.

And I am sure by now you all know my opinion on that,

.

Greg Wilson · Feb 21, 2009

Toothpaste said:
I actually didn't mind the essay at all - in fact agreed with a lot of it, I'm not a big fan of the books myself either though I love the films - until it concluded that adults shouldn't like children's books (he essentially concluded that LOTR was for kids and then asked what "adult" would read them). As if somehow children's books are a lesser form and not worthy to be read by adults. As if there isn't any merit in a children's book.

And I am sure by now you all know my opinion on that, .

Well, if that's your major objection, you should go back to the article now--where he leaves a comment talking about the "moral simplicities" of children's literature, comparing it through an extended metaphor to "runny cheese."

Oversimplifications for all!

Greg

Toothpaste · Feb 21, 2009

Nice of him. I don't need to put up with yet another ignorant soul who likes to make these sweeping judgments. Shame on him especially considering he's also an author.

I wrote a lengthy guest post over at Nathan Bransford several weeks back on children's writing. Here it is. Do you think I should go over to the dude's blog and link to it? Genuine question.

Greg Wilson · Feb 21, 2009

Toothpaste said:
Nice of him. I don't need to put up with yet another ignorant soul who likes to make these sweeping judgments. Shame on him especially considering he's also an author.

I wrote a lengthy guest post over at Nathan Bransford several weeks back on children's writing. Here it is. Do you think I should go over to the dude's blog and link to it? Genuine question.

Absolutely--though I should warn you that he won't get the point. You're a runny cheese merchant, after all.

Greg

Toothpaste · Feb 21, 2009

Eh too late. I already did.

Toothpaste · Feb 21, 2009

Well my comment was submitted at any rate, not sure if it will actually show up . . .

Mr Flibble · Feb 21, 2009

Toothpaste said:
Eh too late. I already did.

oooh well said!

Toothpaste · Feb 21, 2009

Why thank you!

I'll never understand other authors who wish to demean entire genres. I mean I could kind of understand it from people who aren't familiar with books, who don't read a lot, or who don't understand the world of writing, but authors? Especially an author of genre fiction who must have some understanding of what it's like to have people look down their noses at your work (I mean it's not like SF/Fantasy is considered "legitimate" by the intelligentsia). It's such BS to me. And I don't get how supposedly intelligent people can say such absurdly unintelligent things.

Alex Bravo · Feb 21, 2009

I finally got through the LOTR book one! The fourth time was the charm, and it was an audio book, but I can now say I've read it, or listened to it.

I'm working up the courage to get book two, but every time I see it on the shelf I'm not sure if I'm ready to slog through another. Once I run out of other interesting books, I'll do it, just because everyone else seems to like it so much.

Death Wizard · Feb 21, 2009

IMO, there seems to be an age factor with Tolkien. Those currently younger than 35 tend to disdain him, those currently older than 35 tend to love him. I'm 51 and love him. LOTR is fantastic in all ways. Brilliant. Amazing. Entertaining. Ground-breaking. Marvelous. Etc. Etc. Etc. I'm curious to see if there is anyone out there older than 35 who doesn't like LOTR.

Alan Yee · Feb 21, 2009

I'm a lot younger than 35, but I enjoyed both The Hobbit and LotR. I read them when I was in 4th and 5th grade.

rugcat · Feb 21, 2009

deathwizard said:
IMO, there seems to be an age factor with Tolkien. Those currently younger than 35 tend to disdain him, those currently older than 35 tend to love him. I'm 51 and love him. LOTR is fantastic in all ways. Brilliant. Amazing. Entertaining. Ground-breaking. Marvelous. Etc. Etc. Etc. I'm curious to see if there is anyone out there older than 35 who doesn't like LOTR.

Well, I read LOTR before it came out in paperback and was popularized. I was reading a lot of SF/F at the time, and I found a set in a used bookstore when I was in high school. I had no idea what it was, except that it looked interesting.

It knocked me off my feet. I'd never read anything like it, and I thought it was great. I've read it more than once since, and still think it's great.

Death Wizard · Feb 21, 2009

Alan Yee said:
I'm a lot younger than 35, but I enjoyed both The Hobbit and LotR. I read them when I was in 4th and 5th grade.

I'm not saying that everyone younger than 35 hates it and vice versa. I'm sort of generalizing. But Tolkien's "voice" seems to appeal less to the younger crowd, again IMO.

Death Wizard · Feb 21, 2009

rugcat said:
Well, I read LOTR before it came out in paperback and was popularized. I was reading a lot of SF/F at the time, and I found a set in a used bookstore when I was in high school. I had no idea what it was, except that it looked interesting.

It knocked me off my feet. I'd never read anything like it, and I thought it was great. I've read it more than once since, and still think it's great.

I'm not saying this to brag. In fact, maybe this makes me look weird. But, starting in the early '70s, I have read LOTR all the way through at least 25 times. For me, it's a rite of passage about every spring.

lkp · Feb 21, 2009

I tried LotR for the first time in my early teens and hated it. Tried again in my mid-thirties and devoured it almost in one sitting. One thing I fud interesting --- a few years ago I read it aloud to my son. It has a completely different feel when read aloud (better) --- it is almost as if T. composed it to be a tale told orally.

Death Wizard · Feb 21, 2009

lkp said:
I tried LotR for the first time in my early teens and hated it. Tried again in my mid-thirties and devoured it almost in one sitting. One thing I fud interesting --- a few years ago I read it aloud to my son. It has a completely different feel when read aloud (better) --- it is almost as if T. composed it to be a tale told orally.

To me, the beauty of it is the richness, complexity, and warmth of the characters. I love them all.

eyeblink · Feb 21, 2009

I read LOTR three times between the ages of 10 and 13. Third time round, I had a feeling of "enough now" and I haven't read it since - that was thirty years ago. I'm not against rereading it, but I'd rather hang on to my happy memories. These days I'm a lot pickier about writing style - of the classic fantasy series I read in my teens, Titus Groan and Gormenghast were more my thing, and a major reason for that was the way it was written. I'm worried I might find Tolkien turgid now. I liked the films a lot, by the way.

Also, as I have less time to read and I'm slower too, a novel of over 400,000 words would take me well over a month to read. That's not in itself a problem, but there are too many books I haven't read at all yet that I'd like to.

Tolkien's writing, one more time

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