What is a girl to do???

[JulieJames]

Ok so I asked earlier about getting an agent because I was told to get an agent and resubmitt my stuff to them.... well that was 3 months ago and of course I still don't have an agent, the thing is, the script is still at pitch. I've tried asking everyone I know that might possibly know someone that might know someone in Hollywood land that could help me out (It's a lot more than I realized) but I still got bupkiss. Is there anyone on here? I know I'm not saying it's going to sell, I just find it odd that it hasn't moved past scripting.

Hope you guys can help....

[kullervo]

You're seeing the problem. Hollywood has 1,000,000 screenplays in orbit around it at all times. And it doesn't want them. The vast majority of movies are work-for-hire from writers they know and trust, and very few newbie places are ever available. You have fallen into the churn of hype and enthusiasm that is Hollywood-speak for "go away."

[JulieJames]

You're seeing the problem. Hollywood has 1,000,000 screenplays in orbit around it at all times. And it doesn't want them. The vast majority of movies are work-for-hire from writers they know and trust, and very few newbie places are ever available. You have fallen into the churn of hype and enthusiasm that is Hollywood-speak for "go away."


thats so depressing... even though I know it's true... How on earth can a nobody ever hope to become a somebody?? Like that chick that wrote juno? How do you ever get discovered if you don't know anyone at all?

[ComicBent]

I am not a professional. I am just an observer. Here is what I have learned in that capacity.

* First, it helps if you have three or four scripts.

* The scripts need to be good.* Your scripts need to be interesting. They cannot be slice-of-life, semi-autobiographical drivel that is important to you in some way but totally boring to everyone else.

* Your scripts cannot be what I call "linear." As I use the word, "linear" means that the plot moves directly like a bus from Point A to Point G, with little stops along the way at B and C and D, etc., just to have a fight or have a conversation with someone. But these stops are just inconveniences; they do not teach the character anything or challenge him in any particular way. Instead, the bus needs to have a very unexpected detour before it finally gets back on course. One of the most common fatal flaws that I see in scripts is that everything just moves, like a bus, from A to G with no life-changing, life-illuminating events along the way.

* Your scripts need conflict, with growth or change in the main characters, or a demonstration that the unchanging main character is able to overcome a particularly difficult challenge that could have made him change in a bad way.

* Get a couple of competent people to read your scripts to give you some honest feedback. What I am saying is: Do not go out looking for success until you know that you have a genuine potential for success in your hands to show to people.

* Send your queries and scripts to anyone in the film industry who will read them. I have known lots of people, on line, who have had their scripts read. I have known people who sold scripts or at least got an agent.

* The main thing is: Do not try to do this without having the materials to show to people in the industry.

* My final opinion: Having an agent is not the answer for most people. The answer is to have some really good stuff to show.

As I said, I am not a professional, just an observer.

[IceCreamEmpress]

How on earth can a nobody ever hope to become a somebody?? Like that chick that wrote juno?

She was a journalist, published a book, and had a very popular blog. This brought her to the attention of a manager. The screenwriting thing came after she had already made a name as a writer.

[icerose]

In order to get noticed if you don't have contacts you can't be just good. You have to be amazing and lucky. And don't forget creative.

[kullervo]

1. Luck.
2. Contacts.
3. Luck.
4. Luck.
5. Writing Ability.

[dpaterso]

Some aspiring screenwriters have found a measure of success through contests, although the odds there aren't in your favor either, and others through paying contact networks like InkTip.com (whose weekly "scripts wanted" newsletter lists prodcos looking for specific types of script) and ScriptPIMP whose prodco signatories are willing to look at queries submitted by ScriptPIMP members. Take a peek at post #3 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=475908&postcount=3) in the screenwriting tips thread.

-Derek

[clockwork]

Ok so I asked earlier about getting an agent because I was told to get an agent and resubmitt my stuff to them.... well that was 3 months ago and of course I still don't have an agent, the thing is, the script is still at pitch. I've tried asking everyone I know that might possibly know someone that might know someone in Hollywood land that could help me out (It's a lot more than I realized) but I still got bupkiss. Is there anyone on here? I know I'm not saying it's going to sell, I just find it odd that it hasn't moved past scripting.

Hope you guys can help....

100% of screenwriters working today, at one point, were not working screenwriters.

The only thing that will turn you into one of them is how badly you want it. 3 months is a sneeze in the lifetime of an aspiring screenwriter. You have to be prepared to stick with it through what could be a decade of rejection. The good news is, it's entirely possible (see above) but you have to decide if you want it that badly.

[wordmonkey]

You need to make contacts. And this might well be via a different route.

Like the Juno example, she came in via other writing that got her connections.

I started writing screenplays, switched to novels, short stories and finally ended up at comics. Working with an independent comic company who had a BIG Hollywood agent got me that connection and now I'm developing a TV show, the I co-created, with a prodco. Might not go anywhere, but I have a seat at the table now.

OK... maybe a seat at the kids' table, but it came from networking and not going the obvious route that was blocked to me.

My overall point here is that in going a different route, I was able to write, be seen and develop my style/voice. That got me some people who liked what I did and they opened other doors for me. And I now have access, to people that I couldn't dream of getting to via the slush-pile. I've skipped the gatekeeper. That doesn't mean I'm IN, but it means I get my stuff to the people who can say YES, instead of just getting in front of the people who are paid to say NO.

It is NOT easy. But is IS achievable.

(BTW, I wouldn't recommend trying my route, comics are even harder to break into than Hollywood. You could look at local film-makers and develop a relationship with them - if they make your stuff, they have a vested interest in making sure your stuff is seen... because they want their stuff seen. It could be writing a few one act plays for a local theater group. Doesn't matter about the specifics, it matters about being seen and having people know you and your work.)

[odocoileus]

College. Courses in theater, film, literature, other arts. Math and science are good too, especially computers. Do a film industry internship program in Hollywood or NYC.

Write short stories, plays, reviews, paperback novels.

Make short films.

Work in the theater. Do everything you're allowed to. Act, write, build sets, hang lights, make costumes.

Move to Los Angeles, find an entry level job in the industry. Make people. Meet friends. Keep writing.

Per your question from another thread, your Mom can't be your manager.

[Rainy Night]

thats so depressing... even though I know it's true... How on earth can a nobody ever hope to become a somebody?? Like that chick that wrote juno? How do you ever get discovered if you don't know anyone at all?

Move to Hollywood and make contacts.

[Cyia]

Something else, and it may sound horrible, but unless you're writing straight chick flick fare, don't put a girl's name on the front. Hollywood is very much a boystown; pick a name that's at least gender neutral.

[JulieJames]

OWOWOWOWOWOWOW! Thanks for all the awesome input! So going by the name James Coburn would not be a bad thing (I was doing that for a while)?? Lets see, I've already got 1 script listed on Inktip.com and I've entered several competitions. So I'm getting there. I just need to keep writing, and keep pushing. I can do that.

On a side note. what do you guys think about expos as in the screenwriting expo?? I've never known anyone to make it out at that event. Is it worth it to just suck up as much information as possible? and meet as many people as possible?

Did I mention how awesome you guys are??

[kullervo]

And know that even if you do everything right, know all the right people, win all the right contests*, write all the right scripts, get all the right education, the odds are still crushingly against you. Don't turn your life upside down.

*Winning the Nicholl is still a very, very good idea if you can manage it.

[platinumscript]

Hi. Very daunting task indeed. But if you glance upon entering AW there's always viewing traffic--- tremendous interest. Most shy. (views in relation to posts)

This thread states the harsh realities s-writer faces. Absolute best cluster of posts I've seen... till mine drags it down.

Suggestion: grab the 'life rights' to somebody verrry interesting. Could be a jewel borne from the distant... or not so distant past... or present. Past is easier to secure, less vultures circling. Pow. You are now at the very least an associate producer. You own the rights of a developing H-wood film embryo. Write the script. You now own a viable H-wood film fetus. Take this to the door. By bringing the first two stages of the hallowed 'package' (star/director/producer elements to be attached) you have tremendously increased your odds of getting a seat at The Table. Why? Because your competition is banging on the door with the same fist most everyone else bangs with. A script by its lonesome. You are different. What you bring can be measured. It's less nebulous... therefore less risky. Now pitch your heart out.

But as pointed out in above posts... execution of the script is key. Make sure you bring your 'A' game or you will be kicked to the curb before the salad can even be served.

Just a suggestion. Enjoy your day. Plat

[kullervo]

Everything, everything, everything has been tried. I have a producer friend who does the life rights bit. Believe me, if someone is even possibly of interest to Hollywood, my friend is on a plane to go get their rights. She's got an entertainment attorney to write the agreements, and the money to make it happen. So advising a new writer to get in that game and magically find the rights to someone's story is fairly close to "here a miracle occurs."

And how does my friend afford all this? By selling the rights on to production companies. They then hire a known writer, and you're back to square one.

[platinumscript]

Kull--- Very simple. If your friend sells the rights to prod. companies... then the mere (and easy) act of her acquiring life rights (which I recommended) brought her into the 'sphere of influence'. Got her to the table with flesh and blood producers. Producers who, by your account, pay real money to her. Her approach brought her to the alter of The Holy Grail. Thought that was the point. So advise seems reasonable... far from 'a miracle occurs'. And your post intimates that she has done this on more than one occasion. Hmmm. A 'pattern of miracles? Interesting.

Why does she 'fly around the country'? Email is far more efficient and far less costly. Suggests haphazard process.

Entertainment Attorney? Wow. A simple Deal Memo signed and faxed/mailed will do. Once you have that... all future deals will be basically the same format. Why pay?

The 'money to make it happen'? We should all be so lucky. Yes, if she's chasing 'Pilot Lands on the Water' rights and 'Scott Peterson-type' breaking news stuff... that's TV MOW, and networks are the competition, and do prefer their 'knowns'. She doesn't have the dough for those sweepstakes. Wasted plane fare.

'Magically finding the rights'. It's not magic. Much easier than that. You simply ID your target. Scour net for connection. Relative. Employer. Agent. Manager. Etc. Example: HOLLYWOODLAND, the story of TV's Superman George Reeves. Story was 40-50 years old. Musty and dusty. Someone woke up someone at Reeves estate, which was NOT fighting off the offers with a stick. Probably paid no upfront dough. Whoever got the rights had first shot at script. Big budget Ben Affleck flick results.
THE EXPRESS, first black Heisman winner. Guy died in late 50's. Now at theaters starring Dennis Quaid. The point is you don't need the money. Just the passion. You pay off... actually the producers/studios pay off on 1st day of filming.

Back to square one? Then she either doesn't have the chops and deserves to be there... or she is not taking the time to 'package' the property to the prod companies. I.E.--- I have this story you want. You can have it BUT I get to write the first draft. That's the deal. Simple and quite common. They can ashcan her draft and go to others. Also routinely done. But she is now a PAID writer... union benefits and since she wrote the first draft and it's a bio she at the very least will be entitled to 'story by' credit on any film. Result foot and body in the door. How's that for advice?

[odocoileus]

Entertainment Attorney? Wow. A simple Deal Memo signed and faxed/mailed will do. Once you have that... all future deals will be basically the same format. Why pay?


You're really advising people to do without an attorney, and just rely on a boilerplate deal memo?

[platinumscript]

Odo---- Hi. And yes. That's the beauty of 'boilerplate. A 'Rental' or 'Lease' agreement covers 'deal points' of importance. Some can run 2-3 pages. A Deal Memo is simple by comparison and the verbiage is not even close to legalese. It is one sheet with very clear and easy 'deal points'.

Big (and small) producers... Deal memos are how it's done when they like a story/screenplay and offer to option it from a writer. Standard practice. The Memo has a line in it that states 'upon a studio or production entity agreeing to make film, all parties agree to execute formal contracts.

For those out seeking to tie up a life rights client--- Deal Memo can work for them too. Secures the rights. You can always get a boilerplate Option/Purchase Agreement later. They are standard and also 'boilerplate'. Easy to find on the net. But if you want to go fishing... test your nerve... this is a good way to do it without being hindered by fear of the big bad option/purchase agreement wolf. Locks subject in and it costs you zero.

Sample Deal Points: 'Joe' agrees to grant exclusive life rights to 'Jim' for a period of xxx months.

'Joe' warrants that he currently owns all of his life rights and has not sold/assigned those rights.

'Jim' agrees to pay Joe 1000 dollars should film be made. Payment to be on or before 1st day of Principal photography.

10-12 deal points. It's over. Very clear, clean, and binding.

Enjoy your day... Plat

[DevelopmentExec]

10-12 deal points. It's over. Very clear, clean, and binding.

Unless you actually buy the life rights - or whatever rights up front, it is not necessarily clean or binding.

Options expire eventually, unless both parties agree to keep renewing them (which usually means the perspective buyer keeps paying for the option). If a better offer comes along, the selling party can simply choose not to renew and make a deal with someone else.

Without the underlying rights - a screenplay based on those underlying rights can't be sold or produced.

I've seen both writers and producers left holding the bag, when for some reason or another the rights holder chose not to extend the option on life rights or film adaptation rights (or demanded far more money to extend the option and/or purchase the rights than the original agreement called for.) For producers it's a calculated risk that's part of the business equation, but for writers who are writing on spec....

I would never write a spec script that wasn't an original idea of my own, unless the underlying property was in the public domain or I bought the film rights outright - rather than optioned them (which is usually cost prohibitive.)

[mario_c]

Lets see, I've already got 1 script listed on Inktip.com and I've entered several competitions.Did you list in their magazine? I did, and didn't get one call. Their open call list is extensive, though.

On a side note. what do you guys think about expos as in the screenwriting expo?? I've never known anyone to make it out at that event. Is it worth it to just suck up as much information as possible? and meet as many people as possible?I attended Expo 08, and another pitch fest (Final Draft) here in NYC. If you suck at networking and need to practice your selling and social skills, it can be very useful. You need to go to LA for at least one weekend if you've never been, to get a feel of what the city is like, but you should already be networking and mailing queries as hard as possible from home first. If you're query is awesome, one studio will bite (don't count on it being a big one).


Did I mention how awesome you guys are??:D To the naysayers, I just have to respond. Whatever you do in life, people will line up to tell you you shouldn't do it and you will fail. You truly cannot win so do what you love, and you can at least know you tried.

[platinumscript]

Unless you actually buy the life rights - or whatever rights up front, it is not necessarily clean or binding.

An option is rock solid clean and unquestionably binding. Period. The option secures and reserves, without question, the exclusive right to purchase the life rights (via an instrument known as a Purchase Agreement)... should the option holder wish to do so w/in a stated period of time. (typically when and if the holder finds somebody other than himself to pay for it. Read: studio/prod. co.) No gray areas.

Quote: Options expire eventually, unless both parties agree to keep renewing them (which usually means the perspective buyer keeps paying for the option). If a better offer comes along, the selling party can simply choose not to renew and make a deal with someone else.

Yeah, options expire or get exercised. Grown-ups doing deals with eyes wide open. Why go thru pain/risk of renewing? Simply have sufficient term length, at inception, that allows time for project to be completed... that way the seller can't walk. Don't leave a window open for them. Easy enough. Can even place 'trigger' clauses that extend option period at no cost. Example: Should a studio/prod. co. start production on the property, the option period shall be extended by ___ months. Note: No law against one dollar cash option. Actually the 'consideration' can be zero cash- your promised efforts. A promise for a promise. Classic binding contract. They promise you the exclusive rights... you promise to work to get the movie made.


Quote: Without the underlying rights - a screenplay based on those underlying rights can't be sold or produced.

All the rights... underlying/overlying are secured by option agreement.

Quote: I've seen both writers and producers left holding the bag, when for some reason or another the rights holder chose not to extend the option on life rights or film adaptation rights (or demanded far more money to extend the option and/or purchase the rights than the original agreement called for.) For producers it's a calculated risk that's part of the business
equation, but for writers who are writing on spec....

They need to be left holding the bag if they didn't give themselves enough time. Their own fault, no excuse. Take the risk out of the calculation. Use good business, as well as common sense. YOU are the one who designs the terms and the parameters of those terms. For Producers it's part of equation. Same holds for writer, 'cause now he qualifies as a producer if he snags the rights. Either way ineptness is not to be rewarded, especially in H-wood. Writer is a big boy, this aint brain surgery.

Quote: I would never write a spec script that wasn't an original idea of my own, unless the underlying property was in the public domain or I bought the film rights outright - rather than optioned them (which is usually cost prohibitive.)

No law against spending unnecessarily. Go head on. See how fast them pockets get empty. When you start talking 'buying OUTRIGHT' to anybody it takes on a sense of permanency in the mind of the seller and they suddenly want a ton. They don't wish to fall 'victim' to the city slicker, for peanuts no less. Go head on...show them the money.
But in an option situation you can (honestly) say you are working for free to get their story to the silver screen. Nobody gets paid till you... their champion and benefactor, sells it to the deep pockets. Then we both get paid --- fairly and handsomely---on the same day. Yep. 1st day of principal photography. Seller says OK... wasn't doin' anything with them dusty old rights anyway. Where do I sign?

Best--- Plat

[platinumscript]

Whoops.. got caught in the QUOTE matrix---

Unless you actually buy the life rights - or whatever rights up front, it is not necessarily clean or binding.

Options expire eventually, unless both parties agree to keep renewing them (which usually means the perspective buyer keeps paying for the option). If a better offer comes along, the selling party can simply choose not to renew and make a deal with someone else.

Without the underlying rights - a screenplay based on those underlying rights can't be sold or produced.

I've seen both writers and producers left holding the bag, when for some reason or another the rights holder chose not to extend the option on life rights or film adaptation rights (or demanded far more money to extend the option and/or purchase the rights than the original agreement called for.) For producers it's a calculated risk that's part of the business equation, but for writers who are writing on spec....

I would never write a spec script that wasn't an original idea of my own, unless the underlying property was in the public domain or I bought the film rights outright - rather than optioned them (which is usually cost prohibitive.)

Plat says:

An option is rock solid clean and unquestionably binding. Period. The option secures and reserves, without question, the exclusive right to purchase the life rights (via an instrument known as a Purchase Agreement)... should the option holder wish to do so w/in a stated period of time. (typically when and if the holder finds somebody other than himself to pay for it. Read: studio/prod. co.) No gray areas.

Yeah, options expire or get exercised. Grown-ups doing deals with eyes wide open. Why go thru pain/risk of renewing? Simply have sufficient term length, at inception, that allows time for project to be completed... that way the seller can't walk. Don't leave a window open for them. Easy enough. Can even place 'trigger' clauses that extend option period at no cost. Example: Should a studio/prod. co. start production on the property, the option period shall be extended by ___ months. Note: No law against one dollar cash option. Actually the 'consideration' can be zero cash- your promised efforts. A promise for a promise. Classic binding contract. They promise you the exclusive rights... you promise to work to get the movie made.

All the rights... underlying/overlying are secured by option agreement.

They need to be left holding the bag if they didn't give themselves enough time. Their own fault, no excuse. Take the risk out of the calculation. Use good business, as well as common sense. YOU are the one who designs the terms and the parameters of those terms. For Producers it's part of equation. Same holds for writer, 'cause now he qualifies as a producer if he snags the rights. Either way ineptness is not to be rewarded, especially in H-wood. Writer is a big boy, this aint brain surgery.

No law against spending unnecessarily. Go head on. See how fast them pockets get empty. When you start talking 'buying OUTRIGHT' to anybody it takes on a sense of permanency in the mind of the seller and they suddenly want a ton. They don't wish to fall 'victim' to the city slicker, for peanuts no less. Go head on...show them the money.
But in an option situation you can (honestly) say you are working for free to get their story to the silver screen. Nobody gets paid till you... their champion and benefactor, sells it to the deep pockets. Then we both get paid --- fairly and handsomely---on the same day. Yep. 1st day of principal photography. Seller says OK... wasn't doin' anything with them dusty old rights anyway. Where do I sign?

Best--- Plat

[DevelopmentExec]

Options can and do expire all the time. It's not about ineptitude - it's about the realities of the business. The length of an option needs to be fair to both parties. It can take years for even the most successful producer to get a project up and running to the point where you go from working off an optioned property to purchasing the rights (precisely because those rights generally do cost a ton). It took something like ten years to get Forest Gump (a novel adaptation) greenlit. No author's going to agree to a ten year option, nor should they. It's not a good idea for any writer to tie up the rights to their project for that long. A couple of years is the norm. But it's often not enough time - especially when the rights are being optioned by a screenwriter who has the extra step of having to first find a producer to further develop the project and try to package it - all the while the clock on that option is ticking.

I've worked in development for some time - I've worked with optioned screenplays, projects adapted from optioned novels, projects based on true life stories that required life rights. I have a solid understanding of the pros and cons of optioned projects. And where the dangers lie. I worked on one project that between option fees and screenwriter fees for the adaptation and various rewrites the prod co invested several years and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Great relationship with the author, he loved the adaptation. But after several extensions, the author - whose on the eccentric side - suddenly wasn't sure if he wanted the book adapted into a film. The project is in limbo and may be dead - which would really be a shame because it's a fabulous script and a wonderful story. For producers development is part of the cost of doing business and since most projects that go into development, don't make it into production this is par for the course.

What writers need to understand is that options only secure the right to purchase and lock in the payment terms for the purchase, for the length of the option. The moment an option expires, if the optioner has not purchased the rights to the underlying property, he has no rights to the underlying property and the agreed upon terms set forth in the option are are null and void. Plus they are out whatever money they put up for the option (and generally speaking the longer the option, and the more extensions, the more the option costs) Since the screenplay itself is based on those underlying rights, the writer can't do anything with the script without having those underlying rights - which he no longer has.

I've seen too many writers pour their hearts and souls into writing spec scripts with underlying rights - and then lose those rights for a variety of reasons.

I stand by my position. I don't think it's a good idea to write a spec script that has underlying rights that you don't own outright. But if you are going to, make sure you have an understanding of what an option is and is not and what it's limitations and the risks are.

[icerose]

If there's anything I've learned about scriptwriting and breaking in it's this.

Nothing is easy. Nothing is simple. And nothing is ever quick until all the work is on your shoulders and people are waiting for you.

[kullervo]

I have only two rules for screenwriting:

1. Anything might work.
2. In all likelihood, nothing will.

[platinumscript]

You are buying them, and thus 'owning' the rights outright... it's just that you're paying for them later... and not out of your own pocket. Wink.

But some might be intimidated by the process. Beats the heck out of the million to one shot of sending a query into the jaws of those notoriously stingy and near-undefeated H-wood gate-keepers.

Develop--- your points of being wary and cautious is well taken. Enjoy your day.

[platinumscript]

KULLERVO---

I took the time to peruse your s-writer site. Brilliant. I'm in awe. Point blank 'how-it-is'.

I'm gonna post a few snippets--- hope you don't mind. This should be a mandatory thread for all entrants into the s-writing section here.

-Write a query letter. We've come to the last resort. For most of you, it's the first resort.

That's it, that's all. One page. Do not send any part of the script or a synopsis or treatment unless specifically asked to do so. Then sit back and enjoy the silence, because not one query letter in fifty will receive a response.

I dream of a day when only writers who need agents seek them out. Agents share my dream. Their assistants and the poor souls in agency mailrooms all over town share my dream. Our dream will never come true.

I'm going back to read more. Certainly you must be on the cusp of great things. Much respect... and I grudgingly and rarely offer that... Plat.

[DevelopmentExec]

You are buying them, and thus 'owning' the rights outright... it's just that you're paying for them later... and not out of your own pocket. Wink.

This is not accurate. When you option something you don't own it - - what an option grants you is a legal claim (think lease or rental) to the rights for a specified amount of time, and an opportunity to purchase those rights for a mutually agreed upon fee during that time. When you lease an apartment - you have legal claim to that apartment for the length of the lease - but you don't own the apartment. When you lease a car, you don't own it.

You don't technically own the rights to a project until you exercise your option to purchase. And the rights owner is under no obligation to extend the option beyond the timeframe that is laid out in the agreement.

As I said, it's important to understand what an option grants you and what it doesn't. Bottom line is if you option something, you have no guarantee you will still have a claim to the rights by the time you are able to find a buyer for the script and/or financing for the production.

[kullervo]

Very kind, Platinum. You can probably see from my website that I am rather infuriated at the number of people making a living selling false hope to would-be screenwriters. I wanted to give away a little harsh reality, free!

Seriously, folks, before you spend some of your one precious life on planet Earth chasing this ridiculous dream, know what you're really chasing, and know the odds.

[platinumscript]

Develop--- I winked. You are sound in your observations. No doubt. But I choose to not operate within the 'rules' of the 'game'. They are designed to keep people out. See Kulervo's most eloquent post above.

My methods work. Of course they are not applicable or cost effective to securing the rights to John Wayne... but they would apply to Charles Bronson. And they were both... at some point in time the undisputed number one box office star. You've got to pick a target that has a story-behind-the story (not Bronson... arguably not Wayne too)
My point is nobody is knocking at Charlie's estate door. And thus the low/no money... pay on an 'if come' basis would apply. The George Reeves HOLLYWOODLAND FILM... and THE EXPRESS 1s black Heisman winner are sterling examples of strories 'nobody wanted'. 50 years old. Easily obtained by man on the street with a dream and some 'nads. Best of luck Dev.

[odocoileus]

Easily obtained by man on the street with a dream and some 'nads.

:idea:


http://www.bulls-balls.com/large/nbbflesh.jpg

[kullervo]

Platinum, you have contemplated Dev's user name?

[DevelopmentExec]

Develop--- I winked. You are sound in your observations. No doubt. But I choose to not operate within the 'rules' of the 'game'. They are designed to keep people out. See Kulervo's most eloquent post above.

Platinum - I was not referring to the rules of the game - but the rule of law. i.e what you are legally entitled to when you option something, and more importantly, what you are not.

Options are a staple in this business. And to my knowledge there is no grand conspiracy to discourage aspiring writers from optioning rights in order to keep them out of the business. In fact I know many producer's who won't even read a spec based on a true story unless the screenwriter has the life rights.

I'm certainly not trying to "keep anybody out", I'm simply trying to let people know what they are getting into when they choose to write a script based on underlying rights that they option rather than own.

And for the record - should some well connected, successful producer, director and/or star (let's say Tarantino for argument's sake) theoretically approach the Bronson estate with the hopes of securing his life rights - the chances that the estate would choose to renew Your option rather than let it expire and grant it to someone with a track record, an Oscar and a real chance of getting it made and distributed by a major studio are miniscule - even if you could compete on the monetary terms, which I highly doubt you could.

You'd be out on your butt with a script you can't do anything with. And if you don't think it could happen or does happen, you are naive. It happens, I've seen it happen. Multiple times. I've seen it happen to established writers and producers being usurped by more successful writers and/or producers.

My hope is that others reading this thread will not be naive and will have a solid understanding of the the risk they are taking before they make decision to option a property.

[platinumscript]

Develop... relax.

You say 'options are a staple in this business' but then you denigrate the value of them. Sorry, can't have it both ways. They are a staple. But that doesn't mean they have to be poorly written. The 'option' is not the instrument at fault for your colleagues misadventures. It is their failure to plan ahead. Don't punish me for their transgressions. and short-sightedness. They simply 'got ignorant'.

You first jumped in when I suggested a 'Deal Memo' to secure life rights. I went to law school... aced contracts. This is basic stuff. A Deal Memo IS a contract. That's why prodco's use them... every single day. Life-rights. Simple deal. Get in... pitch the subject... get a signature. If you dilly-dally and try to ink them on the spot... via a 5-page Purchase Agreement (complete with legalese) that snatches the rights from them FOREVER. Good luck. They aint signing s#*#. 'It's too complicated... let me run it by my attorney... this is my only connection to greatness... it's our family legacy'. You scared hell outta them. They freeze. No deal. Unless you pull out some loong dough. My advice was clearly intended for low/no money outta pocket interested people. The way I'm describing it is the smartest way (absent loong dollars) to get it done. Example is kinda disengenious of you... aint gonna be no Oscar guys or track-record guys in line at the gates pertinent to our discussion.

It doesn't take brains to write a check and secure the rights. It takes brains and 'nads to get em to sign for 'later money' from another pocket.

I feel a certain sadness for your 'established writers and producers... usurped by other more established W's & P's'. But if they are that stupid... yes s.t.u.p.i.d.-- to not have tied up the rights... well they deserve to be b-slapped and their project usurped. If they can't even do something as simple as securing the rights over a sufficient period of time to get the movie made... they are either dumb or ignorant. Or, as Robert Downey Jr. so aptly described in Tropic Thunder line: 'They went full-retard"

As for hypothetical Tarantino scenario: 1st of all, I wouldn't have to ask/beg Bronson estate to 'renew' the option, because I'd be smart enough (doesn't take a genius) to have written a sufficient time period into the terms so that my option does not 'toll' (expire) before the film is made. The estate would be well aware of time term and not even entertain competing offers as they are 'locked-in'. So the chances of 'track record/Oscar folks 'usurping' project are not only 'miniscule', they are non-existent. What part of this simple and transparent process do you not get? Or perhaps not wish to get? If you pretend not to see something... that doesn't make it not be there for everyone else to see. 'Hey... look at that post... the guy just explained in plain English how not to get jacked by others... just make your option period long enough'. Reply Post: 'Uh... I'll just say I don't see that... yeah... then nobody will believe it's there'.

As for me being 'out on my butt'. There's worse places to be.

And 'the establishment' does in fact wish to keep 'the club' exclusive. Not a conspiracy, just a philosophy. But I'm getting in anyway... and all the mumble-jumble double-talk by 'Dev' Execs' to discourage hard-working s-writers from chasing their dream aint getting in my way. Though, I must admit, your discourse on options this and options that, and Oscar-level track record big-wigs stealing life-rights--- have most probably scared away quite a few well-intentioned souls. Well done.

I wish to help and encourage all who wish to tackle the loooong odds of success as a s-writer in H-wood. And strangely as it may seem, Go with grace. ----- Plat.

[platinumscript]

Odo--- you are hilarious!!

[platinumscript]

Kullervo--- Took a deep breath. Contemplated... then slapped myself. I'm gonna miss you in the s-write world. Keep breezing through. The moving truck is merely a physical manifestation of your entering a new dimension of creativity. But if I ever get in deep enough... I'll make you an offer you can't refuse and drag you 'kicking n screaming' onto the studio lot to help us get it done right!

[DevelopmentExec]

You say 'options are a staple in this business' but then you denigrate the value of them. Sorry, can't have it both ways. They are a staple. But that doesn't mean they have to be poorly written. The 'option' is not the instrument at fault for your colleagues misadventures. It is their failure to plan ahead. Don't punish me for their transgressions. and short-sightedness. They simply 'got ignorant'.

I did not denigrate options, I merely pointed out certain realities your enthusiastic post left out. Only the simply ignorant would go into any type of legal arrangement turning a blind eye to the pitfalls that may be in the arrangement.

And it's not a question of having it both ways - it's being an adult, a realist and an experienced professional. Chocolate tastes good, Chocolate is fattening - the two are not mutually exclusive. Things can have both positives and negatives. Options serve an important purpose, but there are risks involved and those risks tend to hit spec writers harder than production companies. As a development executive I encouraged the producers I worked for to option scripts, film rights, life rights on any number of projects. I've been hired to write projects that had underlying rights that were optioned - but I wasn't doing those projects on spec - and it was the producer who optioned the rights, not me.

You first jumped in when I suggested a 'Deal Memo' to secure life rights. I went to law school... aced contracts. This is basic stuff. A Deal Memo IS a contract. That's why prodco's use them... every single day. Life-rights. Simple deal. Get in... pitch the subject... get a signature. If you dilly-dally and try to ink them on the spot... via a 5-page Purchase Agreement (complete with legalese) that snatches the rights from them FOREVER. Good luck. They aint signing s#*#. 'It's too complicated... let me run it by my attorney... this is my only connection to greatness... it's our family legacy'. You scared hell outta them. They freeze. No deal. Unless you pull out some loong dough. My advice was clearly intended for low/no money outta pocket interested people. The way I'm describing it is the smartest way (absent loong dollars) to get it done. Example is kinda disengenious of you... aint gonna be no Oscar guys or track-record guys in line at the gates pertinent to our discussion.

Congratulations on acing contracts. I'm starting to wonder how you fared in ethics class. Anybody signing a contract to sell the rights to their life story, their novel, etc. SHOULD speak with an attorney or someone whose familiar with the complexities of such a matter and what is in fact fair market value for the rights. Sounds like you're going out of your way to keep the sellers as ignorant as possible, so they will sign whatever the hell you put in front of them whether its fair to them or not.

I wasn't being disingenuous with my example. I know of a situation where something like that happened, not with Tarantino - but with an A-list producer and an obscure novel that no one ever heard of except the writer who initially optioned the book and a big time director who wanted to develop the project and write it himself.

It doesn't take brains to write a check and secure the rights. It takes brains and 'nads to get em to sign for 'later money' from another pocket.

I'm not really sure what the difference between an option and "later money" is. But offering someone an option takes neither brains nor nads. I'm not a lawyer or anything, but if a contract calls for an exchange of money for ownership of a piece of property be it real or intellectual, to be transferred, doesn't the money have to change hands in order for the deal to be complete? I mean if I sign a contract with you that says I'm selling you my car for 10k and you give me a down payment of a grand but your 9k check bounces, don't I still own the car, even though we signed a purchase contract?

I feel a certain sadness for your 'established writers and producers... usurped by other more established W's & P's'.

Don't feel sad for them, as Kull has pointed out the odds of any project getting anywhere in this business are miniscule. Writing on spec, putting something into development is always a risk. The key is to understand what the risks are. If you write an original spec based on your own original story - you don't have to worry about the option expiring - so while selling it is still a longshot, you're not dealing with the additional risk of losing underlying rights.

But if they are that stupid... yes s.t.u.p.i.d.-- to not have tied up the rights... well they deserve to be b-slapped and their project usurped.

This is not about stupidity, plat, it's about fairness and reality.

You are coming to this argument from a place where it's all about what's best for you and f the person you're trying to get the rights from.
Those people have rights and interests that are different from yours. (As a writer you may find yourself on the other side of this option equation). The industry standard option length is a time period that is fair to both parties. Options tend to be a bit shorter than most producers would like and a bit longer than most writers and/or rights holders would prefer. The hope is that it's enough time for the producer to develop the project, secure funding, talent, etc. and in many cases it is.

But the reality is that in many cases it isn't enough time. Option are often extended multiple times - but both parties have a say in whether or not to extend, which has been my point from the very beginning.

I have no idea how long an option you're offering - but if you really are locking up an option long enough to virtually guarantee that you'll retain the rights for as long as you need them - you are either underestimating how long things take or you are taking advantage of the rights holder - especially since you don't seem to be paying much, if anything, for the option. An option essentially takes a script or the film rights off the market and puts the owner of the rights in limbo until the option is executed or expires.

People choose not to extend options for any number of reasons. When it's an adaptation or a life rights situation, if they don't like how you've portrayed someone or something in the script, or are upset that you omitted or added something, they may choose to let the option expire.

I once chose not to renew an option on a spec I wrote because I wasn't comfortable with the direction the producer was taking the project while trying to package it.


But I'm getting in anyway... and all the mumble-jumble double-talk by 'Dev' Execs' to discourage hard-working s-writers from chasing their dream aint getting in my way. Though, I must admit, your discourse on options this and options that, and Oscar-level track record big-wigs stealing life-rights--- have most probably scared away quite a few well-intentioned souls. Well done.

I'm sorry that you see my effort to enlighten writers about how options work as discouragement rather than education. Personally, I'd want to understand how an option works, before I'd written the script, had the option expire and discovered I didn't actually own the underlying rights to the story I'd spent months or a year working on.

I've worked with close to a hundred writers over the years - from successful pros to newbies and treat every one of them, even the most novice among them as adults and professionals. I'm honest about both the business and their handle on the craft, because quite frankly, if you can't handle the truth about this business, you will never make it in this business.

You seem to hold it against me that I have actually worked in this business, and have practical real world experience. I'm sorry if my resume offends you.

I hope the others who read this thread will take the information I've provided as intended and allow my experience-based knowledge to provide them with the facts they will need to make informed choices.

[platinumscript]

[quote=DevelopmentExec;3321822] Only the simply ignorant would go into any type of legal arrangement turning a blind eye to the pitfalls that may be in the arrangement.

Hmm. Guess your colleagues fall into the category you personally describe as 'simply ignorant'. 'Cause you stated: Quote: I've seen both writers and producers left holding the bag, when for some reason or another the rights holder chose not to extend the option

Quote: And it's not a question of having it both ways - it's being an adult, a realist and an experienced professional. Chocolate tastes good, Chocolate is fattening - the two are not mutually exclusive.

Wow. Chocolates no less! Weak misdirection and makes no sense. The idea of an option is either good or bad. Can't be both. If it's good for the goose (producer) it's gotta be good for the gander (writer) Both are ... believe it or not, both human beings. Just because one has a 'better' title... so what. Not in the least impressed. Caste system?

Quote: Options serve an important purpose, but there are risks involved and those risks tend to hit spec writers harder than production companies.

Oh yeah sure, just like rains tend to hit spec writers harder than production companies. And, ahem... after all... you are really only altruistically looking out for the poor little writer here.

Quote: As a development executive I encouraged the producers I worked
with to option projects.

A dev exec encouraging options? Is nothing sacred?

Quote:Rights holders SHOULD speak with an attorney or someone whose familiar with the complexities of such a matter and what is in fact fair market value for the rights.

Wow. I forgot... H-wood wrongly has a reputation as a brutal shark-infested town when in truth the industry encourages the party on the other side of the negotiating table to get all the ammo they need to get the upper-hand in the deal. Beverly Hills ethics. Who would have guessed?

Quote: Sounds like you're going out of your way to keep the sellers as ignorant as possible, so they will sign whatever the hell you put in front of them whether its fair to them or not.

Pal. I close em when I can close em at the best deal possible... for me. (yegads!) And yes, the sooner the better. NOBODY in H-wood would ever dream of doing that. Apologies to Dudley Do-Right.

Quote: But offering someone an option takes neither brains nor nads.

Um. Don't let your colleagues hear you talking like that!

Quote: I'm not a lawyer or anything, but if a contract calls for an exchange of money for ownership of a piece of property be it real or intellectual, to be transferred, doesn't the money have to change hands in order for the deal to be complete? I mean if I sign a contract with you that says I'm selling you my car for 10k and you give me a down payment of a grand but your 9k check bounces, don't I still own the car, even though we signed a purchase contract?

I don't for the life of me know what you're talking about here.

Quote: You are coming to this argument from a place where it's all about what's best for you and f the person you're trying to get the rights from.
Those people have rights and interests that are different from yours.

I get it. This is the part where the violins play. And I thought they played hard-ball in Tinsel Town. Where do I leave my donation for the Tiny Tim and the orphan fund?

I have no idea how long an option you're offering - but if you really are locking up an option long enough to virtually guarantee that you'll retain the rights for as long as you need them - you are either underestimating how long things take or you are taking advantage of the rights holder - especially since you don't seem to be paying much, if anything, for the option.

Quote: People choose not to extend options for any number of reasons. When it's an adaptation or a life rights situation, if they don't like how you've portrayed someone or something in the script, or are upset that you omitted or added something, they may choose to let the option expire.

Quit it. You're killing me here. I forgot this is the 'It's a Wonderful Life' movie and we diligently rush over to the rights holder's house and get script approval on every little thing lest we upset the poor dears. Silly me.

Quote: I've chosen not to renew an option on a spec I wrote because I wasn't comfortable with the direction the producer was taking the project while trying to package it.

Never happened. If the 'direction' was to the bank... you would have been quite comfy indeed. Save that story for the Osmonds.

Quote: You seem to hold it against me that I have actually worked in this business, and have practical real world experience. I'm sorry if my resume offends you.

Never seen your resume. Seems George W. had quite a resume himself at one time, and we all know how that worked out. So, no... I'm not easily misdirected or 'Buffaloed' by illusions. But I'm sure I've worked with much bigger names than you. (Which means absolutely nothing) Or you wouldn't be 'in' development. No disrespect, but I'm certain I swim with much larger fish. I wish you well and I'm sure you are on your way to many successes.

Plat

[JulieJames]

WOW!!! HUGE debate!

So what if I take history and fill in the blanks with a character I created??

Also I hear that period pieces are REALLY hard sells. Essentially by getting someone's life rights from 50 years ago I will end up writing a period piece (I already have one under my belt that doesn't tie up anybody's rights and it's been on inktip for almost a year with no bites.) ?

[platinumscript]

Hi Julie. Period pieces are supposedly hard sells. But 'biopics' that are 'period pieces' are at the cinema all the time. So what does that tell you about the 'rules?

'RAY' (Charles) HOLLYWOODLAND (George TV Superman Reeves)
The Express (Ernie Nevers, 1st Black Heisman winner) Cinderella Man (James Braddock played by Russ Crowe) --- Also Crowe's A Beautiful Mind. JACKIE ROBINSON coming out by Spike Lee. LOMBARDI due out.

JOE NAMATH with Jake Gyllenhall due from Paramount. MILK...Sean Penn. CHE (Guevarra with Benicio del Toro) Hmmm. Some Oscar winners in that mi to boot.

Remember the Golden Rule of Hollywood: Nobody knows anything!

Your inktip may have had wrong subject. They can't all hit. Good luck.

[DevelopmentExec]

Platinum,

The fact that you refuse to see that something can have both a potential upside and a potential downside and that people can be aware of the downside and still take the risk, and hence get stuck holding the bag if that risk doesn't pay off, says to me you are either unable or unwilling to accept anything that I say. I don't know why you're so bitter and I guess it doesn't really matter. My guess is some big bad development exec. didn't like your script. If so, for your own sake, get over it.

Yes, the writer I mentioned was simply ignorant - she was a novice writer who knew nothing about the business and she regretted her decision to option the book rather than work on an original spec. As for the producers I mentioned with the author who changed his mind about adapting the book. They were not ignorant, they were producers. This is what producers do - they take risks, they pursue projects that they are passionate about, even though they know that most won't come to fruition, even though they realize that they may lose the option to a book or screenplay they put in development. It's a numbers game and it's a risk they are willing to take.

As for the rest, it's not worth responding to. I have offered nothing but the best advice I could on this site, to help writers who are not fortunate enough to have the knowledge, experience, and/or connections that I have.

I know you think you've got the better of this exchange. I'll let you live with your illusions.

[platinumscript]

Quote: I know you think you've got the better of this exchange.

You said it... I didn't.

Note: I never got personal. The exec's LOVE my scripts. You may be working for me soon.

Actually it's best we move on to more productive endeavors on this site. I respect your smarts and wish you the best. I can get touchy at times. Human foible. Good luck friend. Plat

[DevelopmentExec]

So what if I take history and fill in the blanks with a character I created??

Also I hear that period pieces are REALLY hard sells. Essentially by getting someone's life rights from 50 years ago I will end up writing a period piece (I already have one under my belt that doesn't tie up anybody's rights and it's been on inktip for almost a year with no bites.) ?

Hi Julie,

The right script gotten into the right hands at the right moment can sell regardless of genre, budget or anything else.

But the reality is that period scripts tend to be harder to sell than some other genres. But they do get made - in fact I can't think of the last Oscar race that didn't include a period piece or two.

Most of the period pieces of the last few years have either been based on true events - Milk, Frost/Nixon, The Duchess or adapted from novels Revolutionary Road, The Reader, Atonement, Benjamin Button.

You can create a fictional character and drop that character into an historical situation, but original fictional period pieces are even tougher sells.

It's all contingent on the quality and commercial viability of your story and getting it into the right hands. For instance I know that the Hallmark channel is currently looking for scripts set in the 1940's - but that means the script needs to be "hallmark-y" in subject matter, tone, etc.

Don't be afraid to write another period piece if that's where your passion lies, but if you have other stories in other genres that you are also passionate about - you might want to consider mixing it up a bit.

It's not so much about breaking the rules as giving yourself the best chance possible to break in.

As for your original question, if I were you I'd pay an entertainment attorney to submit the script.

[JulieJames]

As for your original question, if I were you I'd pay an entertainment attorney to submit the script.


That's all well and good, but I don't have any extra cash just lying around, not to mention the entertainment attorneys I've contacted wont even talk to me, not even local ones way over here in Florida (which I've also heard is a big no no)....

[odocoileus]

That's all well and good, but I don't have any extra cash just lying around, not to mention the entertainment attorneys I've contacted wont even talk to me, not even local ones way over here in Florida (which I've also heard is a big no no)....

What's the rush?

How do you know your scripts are ready to market?

[JulieJames]

What's the rush?

How do you know your scripts are ready to market?

The only reason I even thought my script was ready was because, after getting a copy of some of my script they said find an agent and resubmit. I have since gotten the same script back from the 20/20 contest and well... I made a lot of stupid mistakes because I was in a rush to get it in the mail, and so I didn't score well. However, if I take what they say and create all new characters then it will be another story and no longer a sequal as it had originally been intended to be. I have no problem changing that stuff, and at this point I'm beginning to doubt they are really waiting on my script from a legal representative. It is still listed at pitch on IMDB so I kind of don't know at this point. I want to write in Hollywood so bad I can't see straight sometimes, so the little kid in me is screaming "They like me! They really like me!" but the adult in me says "Well, if they really wanted your script they'd get it from you with or without representation."

So I'm frustrated and confused and somewhat depressed.

oy.

[odocoileus]

Who's "they"?

Did "they" say, we only accept submissions from an agent, or did "they" actually request your script?

I don't get the impression that your work is really ready to sell. Obviously, I could be wrong. First timers do sell. It's rare, but it happens.

Most of your competition (not the wannabes, the real competition) are doing the equivalent of graduate level work or higher in their writing. They've already mastered the undergraduate stuff - format, grammar, basic story structure, basic dialogue.

They already know a fair amount of film history and usually have a decent knowledge of drama and fiction. They've probably made a short film or two, or put on one of their plays in front of an audience. They also have a basic grasp of how the Hollywood film industry works, through reading books like these:

http://www.swedenpress.com/writer.htm

http://www.hollywood-101.com/lessonplan/bookstuff.html

You've got time to learn all this. You can do a lot right where you are. Within an hour's drive, there are probably classes in creative writing, digital videomaking, and acting. If you're anywhere near a major college or big city, classes in playwriting and screenwriting too.

If you're young, there's no reason to be in such a hurry. It may take a couple of years of steady work before you have anything worth selling.

[DevelopmentExec]

The only reason I even thought my script was ready was because, after getting a copy of some of my script they said find an agent and resubmit. I have since gotten the same script back from the 20/20 contest and well... I made a lot of stupid mistakes because I was in a rush to get it in the mail, and so I didn't score well. However, if I take what they say and create all new characters then it will be another story and no longer a sequal as it had originally been intended to be. I have no problem changing that stuff, and at this point I'm beginning to doubt they are really waiting on my script from a legal representative. It is still listed at pitch on IMDB so I kind of don't know at this point. I want to write in Hollywood so bad I can't see straight sometimes, so the little kid in me is screaming "They like me! They really like me!" but the adult in me says "Well, if they really wanted your script they'd get it from you with or without representation."

So I'm frustrated and confused and somewhat depressed.

oy.

I'm confused too.

A sequel to what? Did you write a spec script that is a sequel to a movie you saw and liked? Was this a contest of some sort or did you just take it upon yourself to do so? Were you trying to submit the script to the producer's of that film? Oy. If so, it's no wonder that they'd demand submission through an agent.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say it's listed at pitch on IMDB.

As for the feedback from the contest. If you did write a sequel then you are using copyrighted characters - which means you are violating a copyright, so the suggestion that you change the characters was a good one. Talk about left holding the bag when it comes to not owning underlying rights! If you wrote a spec sequel you have basically put yourself in a position where there is only one possible buyer in the entire world for your script.

As for the other feedback you got from the contest, I read some of the pages you posted here, if those pages are indicative of the quality of the writing of the script in the contest, then you didn't score well because the writing isn't up to the level it needs to be in order to score well, or more importantly to sell.

Your pages were okay but okay isn't good enough, good isn't even good enough - nor is better than average or even very good.

I know you are already frustrated and this is the last thing you want to hear, but as I said above I am always honest about the business and the craft and I treat all writers, whether professional or aspiring as adults.

If you really want to write in Hollywood then you need to get your writing up to a level where it can compete in Hollywood. It's not there yet.

The general consensus on the pages you posted here was that they were confusing, readers couldn't get a sense of what was going on or what the tone was - your response to that was that the feedback was neutral. "Confusing" is not a neutral characterization.

Don't chalk your low contest score up to being rushed when you sent it. Read the criticism, both good and bad, consider it, let it sink in.

Your writing will never improve if you aren't able to at least acknowledge negative criticism, even if you ultimately choose to reject it. And your writing will need to improve if you want to become a professional screenwriter.

I highly recommend that you take a class or workshop, if possible. There's no quicker way to learn the craft than by having face time with a knowledgeable instructor and getting feedback as you go.

Good luck

Dev

[JulieJames]

Were you trying to submit the script to the producer's of that film? Oy. If so, it's no wonder that they'd demand submission through an agent.


Why is it no wonder they would demand submission through an agent?

It was actually a manager that I was told "can make things happen", when I called their office they said yes we got it, "get representation and resubmit" You're in Hollywood, what does that mean?? I honestly have no idea how to take it.

I have read and paid attention to the feedback I got from the contest and I have to say it's pretty detailed. A lot of it was simple mistakes that I knew better on, but the script wasn't ready to send to the contest and I should've known better. I think at this point, I'm ready to start over from scratch and create my own characters and build a story to knock some socks off. Then I'll submit it to the contest again in the fall. (They don't START accepting stuff until mid-October so I've got lots of time to work on it.)

[odocoileus]

It was actually a manager that I was told "can make things happen", when I called their office they said yes we got it, "get representation and resubmit"

It's usually a polite rejection.

Managers are representation. So what they told you was, get representation so we can see if we want to represent you. Doesn't make sense. If you had representation, why would you need them?

Trying to sell to Hollywood at this point in your career is just putting too much pressure on yourself. Take some time to figure out how screenplays work, how filmmaking and acting work. Keep writing. It takes three years of full time study to become a lawyer, and that's before you study for and pass the bar. Becoming a working screenwriter is actually harder than becoming a lawyer.

[nmstevens]

Why is it no wonder they would demand submission through an agent?

It was actually a manager that I was told "can make things happen", when I called their office they said yes we got it, "get representation and resubmit" You're in Hollywood, what does that mean?? I honestly have no idea how to take it.

I have read and paid attention to the feedback I got from the contest and I have to say it's pretty detailed. A lot of it was simple mistakes that I knew better on, but the script wasn't ready to send to the contest and I should've known better. I think at this point, I'm ready to start over from scratch and create my own characters and build a story to knock some socks off. Then I'll submit it to the contest again in the fall. (They don't START accepting stuff until mid-October so I've got lots of time to work on it.)

Well, if you'd actually written an unauthorized sequel to a produced movie, "get representation and resubmit" really means something along the lines of -- "take your unauthorized sequel, go away and never come back."

It's unfortunate and I'm sure that you wrote what you did with great passion and enthusiasm and in all innocence -- but the right to create a sequel or a remake is property, no less than your car or your house or the original work itself.

It falls under the larger umbrella of "copyright" -- the right to create a sequel belongs to the studio (most likely) that made the original movie.

Now, if you wanted to write it as an exercise, as a learning experience, that would be fine.

But you can't sell it because, as I suspect you've discovered, you don't own the underlying rights to the material.

So yes, you can change it around, but it will still be something that started as one thing and ends as a disguised version of that thing -- not as an original creation.

So when you talk about starting from scratch - what does that mean?

Are you writing a new script, or simply writing a new draft that amounts to an unauthorized sequel in a brand new suit of clothes?

If it's the latter, you would be far better served to simply set it aside and write something that is a real original -- characters that are yours, a premise is that is yours, something that is completely your own and that hasn't been sent out before in any earlier and potentially tainted version.

Just my advice.

NMS

[Cyia]

JulieJames, I'm going to take a guess here and assume you're pretty young. (You were asking about mom serving as your manager, after all) that means you're very green as far as writing goes. You may have talent, but it's raw talent.

If you wrote an unauthorized sequel, what you have on your hands is fanfiction. Nothing more. Even if it's wonderful, you can't sell it. The producers of the original film will find and hire their own writers IF they want a sequel.

I went through one of your posted samples in SYW, you can take the comments I left for whatever value you can glean from them. Judging from that sample, it's obvious why your initial attempts haven't gone anywhere. You're not ready.

Not only is the format off, but you have some stylistic things that you need to perfect - and I mean P-E-R-F-E-C-T perfect - before you're even close.

You sound like you have a lot of enthusiasm, and that's great, but it's not enough. Hang in there, get your screenplay in the best shape it can be - WITH ORIGINAL CHARACTERS - and then try to market it.

[JulieJames]

I swear I have a love/hate relationship with hollywood! LOL oh well, so it's back to the drawing board, I think I may actually try to find a completely original story, I've been marinating things for a couple of days. I think I may start first with a short and film it and get it on utube (I have friends that want to film a short with me) and I think I'll just have fun with it and stay on here and post stuff from time to time and see how I'm doing. Who knows, maybe writing will just always be a hobby for me. I really do appreciate everyones input and advice and I think I'm going to take it all to heart and then see what I can create. I think I truely want to create something completely original. I think the problem I was having was trying to find a way to get into hollywood and I think after reading what everyone has said I think the way to make it into Hollywood is to be a good writer. I think that if you're a good writer and you get out there in contests and stuff that eventually someone will notice you and then you'll be a paid writer. I suppose I was more worried about the daunting task of making it in hollywood, but I think you can't be worried about that, because if you do then you're a shitty writer because you're not as worried about the quality of your writing. So I suppose I've been looking at it all wrong. This is SO much harder than just applying for a job with a company. I've got a lot of work to do.

[platinumscript]

Hi Jules---- I think you arrived at the perfect decision. Utube sounds like the right move for you. Contests and stuff also make perfect sense for you. I'm sure that eventually someone will notice. And don't worry about the business side of getting into H-wood. Do the writing for you and your soul. Perhaps it's just that you were looking at this all wrong in the first place. Best of luck. I'm certain I'll be seeing you in H-wood.

[JulieJames]

I'm certain I'll be seeing you in H-wood.


I sure hope so!!!

[jonpiper]

OWOWOWOWOWOWOW! Thanks for all the awesome input! So going by the name James Coburn would not be a bad thing (I was doing that for a while)??


I think you should try James Julie. Has a male writer vibe.:)

DevelopmentExe and Platinumscript, your conversation/debate explained much about the value of options, their pitfalls, and how they work.

I guess the main point Platinum made was:

You can buy a one year option to purchase the rights. The option expires in a year if you don't exercise it. Because of this, the option will cost relatively little.

But you now have a year to find somebody with deep pockets who would pay big dollars to purchase the rights. So, as the option holder, you could theoretically make big bucks by transferring (selling) the option you own to someone with deep pockets.

Say you pay $1000 for the option and sell it to Paramount for $50,000.
A nice little profit for you.:) Paramount then exercises the option and purchases the full rights from the subject for another $200,000.

[DevelopmentExec]

I think you should try James Julie. Has a male writer vibe.:)

DevelopmentExe and Platinumscript, your conversation/debate explained much about the value of options, their pitfalls, and how they work.

I guess the main point Platinum made was:

You can buy a one year option to purchase the rights. The option expires in a year if you don't exercise it. Because of this, the option will cost relatively little.

But you now have a year to find somebody with deep pockets who would pay big dollars to purchase the rights. So, as the option holder, you could theoretically make big bucks by transferring (selling) the option you own to someone with deep pockets.

Say you pay $1000 for the option and sell it to Paramount for $50,000.
A nice little profit.:)

Only you don't buy it for 1,000 you option for 1,000 against 250,000. That's how options work. So unless you find someone with deep pockets willing to pay 300,000 for the film rights - you don't make a 50K profit.

And generally speaking writers who option rights are looking to sell the screenplay based on the underlying rights, not just the rights themselves. Being a middleman for underlying rights without a script to go with them, is not necessarily a career with potential. So you need to find a producer whose willing to pony up enough to cover the cost of not only the rights but the screenplay as well.

And chances are you'll find a producer who wants to option the script rather than buy it outright - and if the option on the underlying rights expires before the option on the script is executed... well you can see how convoluted and messy it can get. This is why lawyers and agents are so important.

Now if you've got interest in the project from a producer, chances are the rights holder will agree to extend the option, but there are no guarantees.

Like I said, it's a gamble for writers, that's why it's important that you really understand how options work.


Dev.

[jonpiper]

Being a middleman for underlying rights without a script to go with them, is not necessarily a career with potential. So you need to find a producer whose willing to pony up enough to cover the cost of not only the rights but the screenplay as well.

And chances are you'll find a producer who wants to option the script rather than buy it outright - and if the option on the underlying rights expires before the option on the script is executed... well you can see how convoluted and messy it can get. This is why lawyers and agents are so important.

Now if you've got interest in the project from a producer, chances are the rights holder will agree to extend the option, but there are no guarantees.

Like I said, it's a gamble for writers, that's why it's important that you really understand how options work.


Dev.

Now I understand the middleman problem.:)

[shutterspeed]

I think you should try James Julie. Has a male writer vibe.:)


Why not make it easier on yourself and go with "Julian" James.

Has the thread really devolved into this? :ROFL:

[JulieJames]

Why not make it easier on yourself and go with "Julian" James.

Has the thread really devolved into this? :ROFL:

I don't know! Julian James might work though... sinve I am technically Julie ann... LOL! this is getting to be funny!

[Mac H.]

Say you pay $1000 for the option and sell it to Paramount for $50,000.
A nice little profit for you. Paramount then exercises the option and purchases the full rights from the subject for another $200,000.As well as the problems already explained, the option contract you negotiated with the original rights holder includes all the details that the purchase will ... so you are locking the Paramount guys in to your contract.

But the Paramount guys are experts - they'll want all sorts of clauses to cover chain of title issues, etc. What about the Disney Ice Show / theme park rights to the adapted story? Are they included in the original contract? Do Paramount care? I have no idea, but Paramount certainly have their own specific needs.

They'd be better off simply waiting a year (when your option expires) and then letting a friendly producer they know to negotiate a new option and then buy it from the producer.

Mac
(PS: I'm not sure about the 'pretend to be male thing'. I've been invited to some pretty decent events (and invited to sign up for a mentorship with some top professionals) because of the hard work of the 'Women in Film' group in my country. They assumed that I was female because 'Mackenzie' is more often a woman's name. To be fair to them though, they were pretty decent about it once they realised I had a Y chromosome. But now I'm not eligible for their great mentorship program anymore.)

[jonpiper]

As well as the problems already explained, the option contract you negotiated with the original rights holder includes all the details that the purchase will ... so you are locking the Paramount guys in to your contract.

But the Paramount guys are experts - they'll want all sorts of clauses to cover chain of title issues, etc.


Because of this and DevelopmentExec's posts, I'm now convinced the middleman route is very hazardous.

Did anyone read the article today in the (San Fernando Valley) Daily News, concerning the film rights to the Watchmen graphic comic? Even with an outright purchase things can get hairy. The original studio that bought the rights, with a specific producer set to make it, gave up on the project and another studio took over. The original studio almost blocked the release of the film. They just negotiated a dollar settlement plus a share of the profits from the studio that made and is relaeasing the movie.

I'm not clear why the second studio would spend one-hundred million to develop and produce the movie without clear title to the rights.

P.S. Jules is't bad either. Jules Julie or Jules James or Julis James. Finally, Orange Julis. Quirky and gender neutral.

[platinumscript]

[quote=Mac H.;3345046]As well as the problems already explained, the option contract you negotiated with the original rights holder includes all the details that the purchase will ... so you are locking the Paramount guys in to your contract.

Yep. That's the purpose of a contract. And the 'Paramount guys' will have signed them to the exact same contract with the exact same language and will have been ... oh my... locked in. As was the intent to begin with. Boilerplate is funny like that sometimes. What? Do you think because the letters on the contract spell p.a.r.a.m.o.u.n.t. that it would not work/protect/lock-in the same if the letters spelled f.r.e.d. j.o.n.e.s.?

But the Paramount guys are experts - they'll want all sorts of clauses to cover chain of title issues, etc. What about the Disney Ice Show / theme park rights to the adapted story? Are they included in the original contract? Do Paramount care? I have no idea, but Paramount certainly have their own specific needs.

I'm an expert... and you too can be an expert. If you are not afraid and let these 'development' experts' con you and keep you sidelined. All that chain-of-title stuff is just that... stuff. It's in ALL the contracts. Nothing special. What about if the school carnival one day in 2090 wants to have _______ booth? My word. Was it in the original contract? Silly. The wording covers it all. 'To be exploited in ALL manner of media/entertainment venues now in existence and to include those conceptualized and available in the future'. Now... that wasn't so hard was it? Told ya you could be an expert. Yeah... paramount has theri own specific needs. But they are not top secret... they're in the b-plate.

They'd be better off simply waiting a year (when your option expires) and then letting a friendly producer they know to negotiate a new option and then buy it from the producer.

They can go ahead and wait a year... if they are dealing with Bozo. Me... my option would be 'flexible' so I'm not vulnerable to corp. shenanigans. Brilliant? NO. Common sense. Simply have a clause that triggers an automatic extension... 2yrs. 3ys... upon 'studio-level involvement in developing the '. Talk about some elbow room to operate. And oh BTW Paramount... ya snoozed on OUR deal and so I'll try it elsewhere. And I bet a 'friendly producer' can now be found to nurture this baby at another studio because now that Paramount was involved the town thinks it must be viable.

Great smoke-screen. I guess I must be a genius'. Because all of this is so so so confusing. But seems simple to me.

Very simple process. Don't fall for all the double-talk posts of 'discouragement'.

Get em to sign off on life rights. Deal Memo or Option. Boilerplate. Option states ya got the right to enforce a Purchase Agreement on the property if you decide to do so and spells out what they get and when.

Write a s-play if that's your bag. Now ya got a package. These 'Development types' can attempt to buffalo ya and call ya a 'middleman' I prefer the title everyone else gets that holds these aces... 'Producer'.

This is how easy it is-----

Ya pitch to agents... or Prodco's. Prodco will sign Deal Memo-- 1 page outlining deal points. Simple stuff. One deal point will be that upon studio getting involved all agree to sign 'formal studio contracts'. Standard easy stuff. (Of course when you nailed the rights you anticipated this day and had a clause that obligates life rights seller to cooperate in future contract signings... like uh... this) Prodco will agree you are to be a producer and ya get xxx for s-play... all $ to you and rights-seller on 1st day of P Photography. Prodco... and agency... will attempt to 'package' and sell to the 'bank'... er studio. They have the coin. End of story

If ya can't handle one paragraph of instructions you are in the wrong business. Get outta it. Now. (smile)

[DevelopmentExec]

If you are not afraid and let these 'development' experts' con you and keep you sidelined.

Nobody is trying to keep anybody sidelined here Platinum. And the only person on this thread, who seems to have anything against anybody on this thread is you - against development people. I don't see how giving someone an accurate picture of what an option is, how long they are normally for, and what the risks are is conning anybody.

I advise anybody who is dealing with options agreements or script sales or writer for hire opportunities who doesn't have an agent, to get an entertainment attorney who understands contract and copyright law rather than a lawyer who aced contracts who doesn't understand the inner workings of the entertainment industry. This business, like many others deals with issues that are specific to the industry. How many other industries even deal with intellectual property at all, let alone the idea of optioning it? Most people outside of the business don't even know what an option is. It's not like real estate contracts where there are tens of millions of real estate sales each year and millions of lawyers who deal with the contracts.

There are industry standards at play here and you need someone who understands those standards. The standard range of time for an option agreement is 6-18 months (with 12 months being the most common) some option agreements provide the producer with the right to extend the option for additional 6 - 18 months for an additional payment to the writer. Personally, I've never seen an option that was longer than two years including the extension.

Anyone who has experience working in this business will tell you that there are many times when the producer can't get the money together to exercise the option before it expires - at which time the rights revert back to the original rights holder. In many cases a new option agreement is executed, but not always. A writer who options a property has the additional burden of finding a producer whose interested in the project once it's ready to be submitted. Those of you who've tried to get your script out there know how long it can take just to find a producer willing to read, let alone finding one who wants to option or buy it.

Now you can try to sucker someone into tying up the rights for three, four, five even ten years, but if he's got an entertainment attorney or even an attorney who has access to google and can spell option agreement - you may not get very far. It's not in the best interest of the rights holder to tie up the rights for that long for that little money.

As writers, you should all remember that, so when you come across a sleazy producer who wants to pay you $250 for a two year option, you know to turn him down, or perhaps you can point him toward platinum who seems to think something like that is a fair deal.

[Mac H.]

Platinum,

Let's pick a simple example. You want to adapt a book.

So you get the author to sign an option agreement that is so wide it even includes the audio book version of the novel !? What the heck?

Not only that, but you want to do it in such a way that while the author might believe that it is a simple 1 or 2 year option that will expire, you have mechanism hidden in the contract that ensures that it will never expire if you don't want it to .. which basically means you got them to sign the contract by misleading them about it.

That seems incredibly unethical.

Yes - you can have an incredibly wide boilerplate agreement that will cover everything. But someone would have to be incredibly naive to sign an agreement that is so wide.

Not only that, but the wrong boilerplate can invalidate the agreement. (eg: Reversion clauses)

Look - I'm not letting others 'intimidate' me. I've got access to an incredibly good entertainment lawyer, and I've read up enough to understand what I need to. You are incredibly confident that you can do it on your own ... but that's like some poor shmuck being told by his wife that he can just use a boilerplate agreement in the divorce, and he really should save money by not getting a lawyer to review it. Would you do that !? Why not?

OK - Here's a pop-quiz:

* If you want to distribute the film internationally, what should the wording of the moral rights clause be?

Should it be:
* A selling of moral rights?
* A waiver of moral rights ?

Hint: Choosing the wrong one might invalidate the clause in some countries.
(Hint#2: This has changed in the last couple of years ... boilerplate contracts written before then might omit the clause or do it incorrectly)

If you can't answer the question without looking it up, you should be getting legal advice, rather than trying to do it yourself. There are a dozen other details like that.

Mac
(PS: Have you actually ever done these acts that you are convinced are so simple? Successfully? Made the $50k profit ?)

[icerose]

I just wanted to say something really quick that's aside from everything else, Julie.

Get to know the craft. I have no idea where you're at so this is pretty basic advice. When you have the craft nailed, when you have 2 or 3 amazing scripts, not good, amazing. The work is much easier to get. Also it's good to have a couple shorts that are unique that you can use as quick writing samples. My one short has gotten me 3 different gigs, one being 13 episodes!

I have also been read several times by various studios, some giving me amazing feedback that said to me they actually liked the writing the script just wouldn't work for them for one reason or another and never once did I have to go by a male name. At the end of the day they care about how good you are vs what you have in your pants.

[platinumscript]

Platinum,

Let's pick a simple example. You want to adapt a book.

So you get the author to sign an option agreement that is so wide it even includes the audio book version of the novel !? What the heck?

Not only that, but you want to do it in such a way that while the author might believe that it is a simple 1 or 2 year option that will expire, you have mechanism hidden in the contract that ensures that it will never expire if you don't want it to .. which basically means you got them to sign the contract by misleading them about it.

That seems incredibly unethical.

Wow. 'Hidden mechanisms'? Everything I do is spelled out CLEARLY. I would never mislead. Tacky and unnecessary. Yes, I agree. YOUR scenario seems 'unethical'. Shame on you.

QUOTE: Yes - you can have an incredibly wide boilerplate agreement that will cover everything. But someone would have to be incredibly naive to sign an agreement that is so wide.

Grasshopper... go to where this journey began, so that perhaps you may see. Take 2 steps back. Yes... That is the forest. The discussion is geared to rights of those now out of the public eye... but interesting nonetheless. Uh... how about 'The Soloist' coming out with Jamie Foxx and R. Downey Jr? (Another example since you've conveniently ignored 'Superman' George Reeves HOLLYWOODLAND example and 'THE EXPRES'. both 50 year old stories NOW playing at your local cinema... talk about timely and relevant)

D'ya thing that homeless hobo was treated unfairly by a Producer that says... hey... it might take me 5 years to get this done, but that's the truth and the way it works'. Nah.. let me think about it the 'soloist' says. A movie on my life... possible big money... 5 years? Nope. I prefer to hold onto these babies and wait for a miracle. Same thing Superman estate and 1st black Heisman estate. Your position is ridiculous on its face! Shame on you.

Not only that, but the wrong boilerplate can invalidate the agreement. (eg: Reversion clauses)

Why would anyone, besides you or Bozo use the 'wrong' b-plate?

QUOTE:Look - I'm not letting others 'intimidate' me. I've got access to an incredibly good entertainment lawyer, and I've read up enough to understand what I need to. You are incredibly confident that you can do it on your own ... but that's like some poor shmuck being told by his wife that he can just use a boilerplate agreement in the divorce, and he really should save money by not getting a lawyer to review it. Would you do that !? Why not?

We all have 'access' to lawyers. But why pay em at stage not required?

If divorce matter were simple... no kids... even split of property. Uh. Yeah. Why not? It's done millions of times per year.... and works out fine. But irrelevant to this.

QOTE:OK - Here's a pop-quiz:

* If you want to distribute the film internationally, what should the wording of the moral rights clause be?

Should it be:
* A selling of moral rights?
* A waiver of moral rights ?

Hint: Choosing the wrong one might invalidate the clause in some countries.
(Hint#2: This has changed in the last couple of years ... boilerplate contracts written before then might omit the clause or do it incorrectly)

If you can't answer the question without looking it up, you should be getting legal advice, rather than trying to do it yourself. There are a dozen other details like that.

Answer to pop quiz-- That language would not be in either the option or Purchase Agreement. Guess some people are just ignorant to certain realities and wish to remain that way. Go ahead...Mislead the hardworking striving writers.

Don't need to 'look it up. Distribution agreement is now a different animal altogether. When you are slicing the $ pie... dealing w/ studio business affairs office... (howdya like these apples?) THEN you get agent/ent att. But then and ONLY then for paperwork. Simple. Yes?

QUOTE Mac
(PS: Have you actually ever done these acts that you are convinced are so simple? Successfully? Made the $50k profit ?)

I have and will continue to do 'these acts'. But keep trying to dissuade the competition. Moer cheese for me. But I try to help folks here. 'Tis my nature.

Take a deep breath. It's gonna be OK. I promise. Best wishes--Plat--- the nurturing force.

[platinumscript]

QUOTE FROM DEV EXEC 'Now you can try to sucker someone into tying up the rights for three, four, five even ten years, but if he's got an entertainment attorney or even an attorney who has access to google and can spell option agreement - you may not get very far. It's not in the best interest of the rights holder to tie up the rights for that long for that little money.'

As writers, you should all remember that, so when you come across a sleazy producer who wants to pay you $250 for a two year option, you know to turn him down, or perhaps you can point him toward platinum who seems to think something like that is a fair deal.

'Sucker'? Ever hear of the term 'negotiate'? Yeah... it's where 2 parties go back and forth and arrive at an 'agreement' that both promise to honor. In this great land of ours everyone is to be treated equally. You yourself posted that some deals may take five years... uh... so why not agree to those 5 up front. Just because 'the standard' term is 18-36 inc extensions... does that mean I or anyone else has to sign at a unreasonably short term? Just because the establishment in H-wood 'commonly' sign for shorter periods of time? Pop quiz: what's your answer? Times up.

And thanks for pointing out that people merely need to Google to get a boilerplate agreement... option or otherwise. See. Clean and simple. Thanks. I'm sure that was your intent.

Re: 'best interests'. Now you presume to know what is in 'people's best interest'. Surely they have not the intellect of those superior beings in another zip code. PUHLEEEZE... spare us the humanitarian act on behalf of the famously devout and brotherly saints that infest... er, reside in H-wood.

And yes rights-holders... if I happen to grace your door with an offer to work for free... yes I don't get paid, sir... unless and until you get paid... then by all means slam the door. After all... I was only offering you something nobody else has for the past 50 years.

And you DESERVING WRITERS writers that slave endlessly and pour out your hearts trying to get a foothold into Emerald City. If you turn down a proven Producer you will regret it. This advise that 250 and 2 years is awful is in fact BOGUS. This tells me this guy must be smoking the PCP, at the very least.

The reasons are as follows. Period. Prodco's WILL option your property for usually 18 months---but that's negotiable. They WILL give you nothing in $$. Zip. Nada. What they will provide is contacts and a promise that they will market your work to the people that buy them. The studios are the bank. Period.. They may also promise to 'package' your work by approaching other entities (example: a fellow prodco has a prod deal at x studio.. perhaps they will be interested in this and take it to the big-wigs) and or agencies (with star/director etc packaging capabilities). Think about it. You've been lusting for years to get in. These guys ARE in. They provide you with your best (and maybe only) chance of getting your work to somebody that can get it to happen. And this clown is advising you to turn it down? Great. Fantastic. Looking out for you 'little people'. Yeah... I wanna follow that guy. Straight into s-play oblivion.

In the past --15 yrs ago... H-wood folks DID pay for s-plays. But so many... tens of 1000's are out there begging to get in... they no longer have to pay. Makes sense. Supply/demand dictates the market. Exceptions: always a blue mooon exception in life... and H-wood. Your script blows the doors off an agent... goes to a bidding war BINGO you're rich. Yeah. Sure. That's why it's called a blue moon.

Ahem. Don't get crazy and take the looong way around. Just address the cold hard facts listed right above my sig here. Plat--- the one who nurtures.
______________

[icerose]

Platinum, I don't get it, why are you trying to pick a fight? You, Mac, and Dev see it differently, it doesn't mean either side is wrong. One is putting up caution signs while you're telling them they're being jerks for being so.

Please stop. This isn't a board for sparring. Take out the personal junk and leave it professional and things will go much smoother for everyone. If I wanted to watch a sparring round, I'd stop by one of the threads in political events. Don't forget first and foremost this is a writer's board and whenever anyone is dealing with contracts, please consult an entertainment lawyer.

Okay I'm getting off my soap box.

[clockwork]

Amen. And this thread's gone so far off course that it's time to lock it up. Feel free to start new threads about topics discussed here that interest you but this one needs a bullet in the head.

Thanks for the debate everyone. Get through the mud and there was a lot of sense spoken here.