Redhead Hate in 17th-18th Centuries?

My grandfather was about 6 when he moved to Ohio from Philadelphia (1870). He caught a lot of flak for his red hair and the kids made up rhymes to taunt him. He was in a number of fights, needless to say - at least one of which would have been fatal if the teacher hadn't intervened. Puma

Apparently this is not rare, as it is still going on today:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/13/london/main3055185.shtml

As far as a historical standpoint goes, at least from what I can gather, red-headed women in particular were persecuted and thought to be witches (during the Middle Ages for the most part). Several texts of the time suggested red hair was a mark of evil or over-sexuality. The Bible describes Judas as having red hair, and Eve is also often depicted having red hair. I did a quick search, and some suggested that red hair in Victorian England was fashionable. Queen Elizabeth I was actually red-headed, and so she set the trend in place.

It's a tough call. But I imagine it would at least be plausible.

Yeah, there still is--welll, not prejudice . . . Let's just say red hair is not considered ideal. Calling someone "ginger" isn't complimentary. In an interview not so long ago, Prince William teased Prince Harry about being "ginger". I'd assume your sailors would notice and probably rib him for ir. He would absolutely catch more flack if they thought he was Irish or if he is Irish.

Are we talking American or English sailors?

Part of the social minutia of Harry Potter is the fact that the Weasleys are red-headed. It's somehow linked with being low-class, Irish, et cetera. Not at all fair, of course.

Also, as noted, this wasn't always the case. Not that your time period is linked at all with ancient Rome, but at that time red hair was in vogue and ladies wore red wigs and girls/women sold their red hair if they had it.

Hey, AZ -

I read an article a few days ago ("Quelling a Pirate Revolt" by Colin Woodward, in Military History Quarterly, Spring 2009) that made a point of describing how egalitarian pirate crews were: that they were one of the few places free blacks, in particular, could get an equal share for equal work. So I would guess your redhead probably took a lot of crap in the Royal Navy, and would probably have to deal with some ribbing (just like everybody else) among the pirates, but his life with the pirates will be a good deal better than pretty much anywhere else. Assuming he can pull his weight, that is....

For what it's worth.
HN

angeliz2k said:

Part of the social minutia of Harry Potter is the fact that the Weasleys are red-headed. It's somehow linked with being low-class, Irish, et cetera. Not at all fair, of course.

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I never made that connection before. Granted, I'm not British or Irish, and when I read the Harry Potter books, I was not quite bright enough to notice the social commentary. It certainly makes a lot of sense now, though.

Fulk said:

I never made that connection before. Granted, I'm not British or Irish, and when I read the Harry Potter books, I was not quite bright enough to notice the social commentary. It certainly makes a lot of sense now, though.

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It doesn't make any sense to me and I'm British of Irish extraction. The Weasleys come over to me as codedly "genteel poor" or "downwardly mobile upper-middle class English". JK Rowling is not a subtle writer and I've discovered that when she wants to portray someone as codedly Irish she codedly calls them something like "Seamas Finnegan" and codedly puts them in tents covered in shamrocks while having leprechaun mascots gambol all around them.

Sirius said:

It doesn't make any sense to me and I'm British of Irish extraction. The Weasleys come over to me as codedly "genteel poor" or "downwardly mobile upper-middle class English". JK Rowling is not a subtle writer and I've discovered that when she wants to portray someone as codedly Irish she codedly calls them something like "Seamas Finnegan" and codedly puts them in tents covered in shamrocks while having leprechaun mascots gambol all around them.

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Obviously--they aren't actually Irish. It's just part of the reason they're looked down on by Malfoy kind of as a mark of them being lower than him. Pro'ly shouldn't have brought it up.

In Brazil, back in the 19#*s, people would snarl at my wife's mother and demand to know why she was so cruel to dye her child's hair red.

I'm British (of Scottish descent) and my sister is a redhead and she's never had a problem.

Quite the contrary; she is very proud of her Celtic heritage.

"redheads" also have a rap of being troublemakers: Pipi Longstockings, Anne of the Green Gables, .... (foolish nonsense, of course -- but great books!)

When I was at college in London, we did poke a bit of fun at a girl who was very redheaded but to be honest, it wasn't so much that she was a redhead, more that she was really getting on all our nerves in general and the redheaded thing was just an easy target (it was never done in a spiteful way though, if that makes sense. Just general banter).

I think so far as school children go, anything that makes someone stand out is likely to be picked on - likewise, having worked with a group of quite rough blokes at some point, they do tend to focus on particular traits in order to give nicknames etc, so it's quite feasible to me that the pirates would pick on the hair colour if it's really noticeable.

One thing I do remember reading in my own research (which is totally irrelevant here but kind of ties in) is that in Ancient Egypt, according to one Victorian source I found, red headed people were considered unlucky because of the association of the colour red with the god Seth, god of Chaos. I have no idea how reliable the source is (he was an eminent Egyptologist but he was writing in 1902) but he also mentions that red haired people were sacrificed because of this association at the original temple to Horus at Edfu (occupying the site where the Ptolomaic temple now stands).

Personally though, my ancestory is more Pictish than Celtic Scottish so my family are all mostly short and dark, but we have inherited a slightly reddish tone to our hair that appears in certain lights.

I think it comes down to making it work with/for your character(s), AZ.

What FITS? Would people be scared peeless to say anything to your character that might make him angry? Or does everyone dislike him and want to ridicule him? Are they in such a dire situation that no one cares? Are they bored out of their skulls and looking for something to do?

I think Jess and angeliz2k make important points. People will use difference to pick on other people. Where red hair is exceptional, a red headed person may be attacked. Or a person with glasses, a limp, or whatever. So if it works in the context of your story and characters, you can use it even if there is no known documented formal prejudice against red heads in your time period.

To be honest, I've never seen any evidence that being red headed was a general cause for suspicion and attack in the Middle Ages, though it is a popular stereotype that they were. That doesn't mean individual redheads weren't at times attacked.

Barbarossa.

Fulk said:

Apparently this is not rare, as it is still going on today:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/13/london/main3055185.shtml

As far as a historical standpoint goes, at least from what I can gather, red-headed women in particular were persecuted and thought to be witches (during the Middle Ages for the most part). Several texts of the time suggested red hair was a mark of evil or over-sexuality. The Bible describes Judas as having red hair, and Eve is also often depicted having red hair. I did a quick search, and some suggested that red hair in Victorian England was fashionable. Queen Elizabeth I was actually red-headed, and so she set the trend in place.

It's a tough call. But I imagine it would at least be plausible.

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Oh in England we often stone redheads or put them on the bonfire at Guy Fawks night usually while the older men do morris dancing. Sometimes the pearly queen throws the first stone, unless a more senior member of the peerage is available, but you have to throw the sstones with your little fingers extended or you will be deemed lower class and condemned to live in Scotland with the picts.

If you are interested in redheads and somehow missed it, Tom Robbins made much ado of the topic in his excellent Still Life With Woodpecker. There's not much on the specific issue you mention, but the enigma of red hair is explored in much greater detail than one would think possible.

Off-topic: noticed the OP is from southern AZ. You in Tucson, too?

I have nothing to contribute but thought I'd say I found this thread fascinating (myself having a redheaded protagonist whose hair earns her much attention, good and bad).

AZ_Dawn said:

I've heard that in modern England people beat up redheads.

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Check this out;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhLIjlTNSk

It gives you a pretty good idea of "gingerism". It gets very funny about the 2 minute mark.

timewaster said:

Oh in England we often stone redheads or put them on the bonfire at Guy Fawks night usually while the older men do morris dancing. Sometimes the pearly queen throws the first stone, unless a more senior member of the peerage is available, but you have to throw the sstones with your little fingers extended or you will be deemed lower class and condemned to live in Scotland with the picts.

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And then, of course, there's the formal curse which was originally pronounced by the Bishop of Carlisle on redheads (or, as they were know a at the time, "Reivers") which begins "I curse their head and all the hairs of their head; I curse their face, their brain (innermost thoughts), their mouth, their nose, their tongue, their teeth, their forehead, their shoulders, their breast, their heart, their stomach, their back, their womb, their arms, their leggs, their hands, their feet, and every part of their body, from the top of their head to the soles of their feet, before and behind, within and without."

"I curse them going and I curse them riding; I curse them standing and I curse them sitting; I curse them eating and I curse them drinking; I curse them rising, and I curse them lying; I curse them at home, I curse them away from home; I curse them within the house, I curse them outside of the house; I curse their wives, their children, and their servants who participate in their deeds. I (bring ill wishes upon) their crops, their cattle, their wool, their sheep, their horses, their swine, their geese, their hens, and all their livestock. I (bring ill wishes upon) their halls, their chambers, their kitchens, their stanchions, their barns, their cowsheds, their barnyards, their cabbage patches, their plows, their harrows, and the goods and houses that are necessary for their sustenance and welfare."

This has to be read, by Royal Edict, at least once a year in every Church of England parish. People of my generation can recall the considerable constitutional crisis when Prince Andrew announced he was proposing to marry a red-head, and the concern about whether Bea or Eugenie might have to be excluded from the succession if they started to show Titian tints.

This has to be read, by Royal Edict, at least once a year in every Church of England parish. People of my generation can recall the considerable constitutional crisis when Prince Andrew announced he was proposing to marry a red-head, and the concern about whether Bea or Eugenie might have to be excluded from the succession if they started to show Titian tints.[/quote]

Indeed it may hsitoriand beleive that was the anti red faction (famous for their concern about reds under the beds rather than, in the case of the royals, in them) that did for Neil Kinnock.