How long is too long?

Suse · Feb 18, 2009

Hi there, I've just joined the site after trawling the internet for 2 hours looking for an answer to my questions! I was really pleased to find this one. This looks like a nice, friendly place.

I'm going to try not to waffle too much, but I've just had the shock of my life, my heart is pounding, hands sweating, etc, so please forgive me. I'm on the final edit (well, maybe I'll do one more) of my novel. It's quasi-historical, if the genre helps. It's also going to be plugged at the UK market.

Thought I'd do a word count, and I just about fell over. I had formatted my novel in what I thought was a typical novel page, but I've now changed it to margins one inch all round, courier new, 12-point (approx 250 words per page). This gives me a word count of a whopping 164,000, the old-fashioned way, or 140,699 using Word's word count!

Can anyone please, please advise me how much this matters? From what I read, for a first time novelist length does seem to matter. I've considered splitting the novel in two, but if I split it in the only place where this seems possible the first book would be 58,250 (traditional) or 52,835 (exact). Surely this is way too short? Does anyone have any thoughts? I've done so many edits I don't think it's feasible to get the length down much more.

Also, I'm wondering which way is the correct way to do a word count? I'm guessing it's the traditional way since publishers need to work out how many pages a book will take up, regardless of whether the author puts 300 words on the page or 3.

Thanks very, very much for any help you can give me.

Maryn · Feb 18, 2009

The way to find what word count suits your genre is to identify four or five recent novels in the genre which are the author's first novels. Then use the Text Stats at Amazon.com/Amazon.uk to get the word counts.

Not every novel has word count, but if you can find four first novels to average, that's a reasonable goal.

Maryn, glad to meet you, sorry not to be able to hand you an actual number

Aggy B. · Feb 18, 2009

Also, I'm wondering which way is the correct way to do a word count? I'm guessing it's the traditional way since publishers need to work out how many pages a book will take up, regardless of whether the author puts 300 words on the page or 3.

I think there was a big, long, convoluted thread about this a while back. If I recall the general consensus was that it did not really matter which method you used, but that when you submitted a query or proposal to an agent or publisher that you mention how you had reached that number. Some word processing programs count words differently and no matter what, if the the publisher is considering publication they will do their own count.

At least, this is what I remember from the previous discussion. Hope it helps.

Danthia · Feb 18, 2009

How to calculate word counts varies, and you'll find lots of debates on it, but my advice would be to just use what Word says. It counts the number of words and gives an agent a basic idea of the size of your book, which is all they want anyway. The more mathematical formulas and estimations were used when we didn't have a nice handy machine to count them for us. You saw first hand how inaccurate it can be to estimate based on those formulas.

Maryn had excellent advice on seeing what the average word count range is for your genre. Past that, larger books are generally harder sells, especially for unpublished authors. But larger books do get published all the time. What's important is that the book grabs the reader from the first line and doesn't let them go. If you write a well-paced, compelling story, the number of words you use is less important.

I am, however, a firm believer in sticking to the average ranges as a first-timer as best you can. That's a common negative against you you can actually control and eliminate.

Gillhoughly · Feb 18, 2009

Welcome to AW! :welcome:

You could not pick a better forum to join. There's plenty of helpful folk here, including many published pros.

Word count per page is often meaningless. Just keep it double-spaced in a 12 point font and I'm a happy editor.

One of my historicals was the right page count for 100K but was closer to 160K words. Your Word count for 140K is more accurate than old time estimation.

You may find this page helpful:

http://www.sfwa.org/writing/breakin.htm

From what I read, for a first time novelist length does seem to matter.

It matters to all novelists, however many books they've sold, because you want to fit it to the publisher's guidelines.

If you send to an agent, he or she will better know how to sell an especially long work. Yours is nothing to worry about. A good editor will tell you what to trim or tighten.

So stop the panic attack, get on with your edit, and make it shiny.

I found the BEST way to cut out deadwood is to read the whole book aloud to yourself. You'll find yourself trimming plenty if only to save your throat!

Suse · Feb 18, 2009

Thanks everyone. I actually stumbled on this site by finding Maryn's Amazon.com suggestion on Google. Try as I might, I can't find the word length for any books and I've looked at loads. I know historical fiction readers often like to get their teeth into a nice fat book. I'm just worried that mine is too long for a first time writer. I'm trying to get the heart rate down by the way, Gillhoughly - trying!

My idea for cutting it in two was a completely half-baked one as the first book simply wouldn't stand alone. I think I'm going to have to prune it, though it breaks my heart. I just don't see that it can be pruned any more than it has been already. Then again, I don't want to waste my time sending it off if it's likely to be automatically rejected.

BarbaraKE · Feb 18, 2009

From what I understand, historical fiction does tend to run a bit longer. I've seen 140,000 as the far end of acceptable for this particular genre.

I would also suggest posting excerpts of your work in the ShareYourWork forums, especially the historical one. It's very likely that your work can be trimmed a bit more and this is a great way to get other opinions.

(To get to the SYW forums, go to the main forum page. The SYW forum is about 40% of the way down the page, first thing under 'The AW Workshop'. You have to sign in (the password is VISTA). The find the Historical forum and plunge in.)

Aggy B. · Feb 18, 2009

Do you have specific publishers or agents in mind? Some publishers have information in their submission guidelines about what kind of length they accept or reject. (And if they don't I would think a polite phone call might yield the information.)

I think you should worry less about how long the manuscript is and more about whether the story is as trimmed or lengthy as it needs to be. Sure, if you've got a really high word count it may be harder to sell, but some stories just can't be told in 80k words. At this point you think your manuscript is as short as it should be. So try submitting it. If it's too long you'll find out pretty quickly. Then you go back to chopping stuff out. But you don't want to keep hacking away and then discover you get rejected because the thing's too short.

Just an opinion, by the way. I'm still unpublished. But it's what I would do if I were in your shoes.

MsGneiss · Feb 18, 2009

It's a bit long for a first time novelist, but don't force a split if there isn't a natural one. I think it makes sense to omit the length when querying - of course specifying it if an agent explicitly asks - just don't mention it in your initial letter. I think the trend for historical fiction does tend to point toward longer novels, so it might be quite standard.

Charlie Horse · Feb 18, 2009

It is what it is. If it's good, it will sell.

Suse · Feb 18, 2009

Sorry if I sound like I'm getting obsessively carried away here, but the reason why I'm so shocked by the word count is because when I chose my typeface and size originally, I looked at typical-looking novels and laid mine out accordingly. I had it as Times New Roman, 14-point type, single-line spacing. That worked out 336 pages at 38 lines to a page and typically about 12 words to a line. Now to me, that's a pretty normal-looking page and novel length.

I'm looking at Bernard Cornwell's Last Kingdom at the moment, for example, and the size of it wouldn't make the average person's eyes water. It's 37 lines, 12 or so words to a line, 327 pages (if you ignore the historical note). Now that means my book, going by the guidelines, should be half (!!) to 2/3 the length of this one. I'd feel cheated by a book that short. I really wonder if I'm missing something and doing the word count wrong, yet I'm letting Word calculate it. The Bernard Cornwell book would look like a novella at half its length

What I just can't understand is why my book would be considered too long (by typical industry guidelines), yet it really does look like an average sized novel to me. I read somewhere that novels are usually 70,000 to 110,000 words. Are first novels meant to at the lower end, ie, shorter than average, rather than simply not exceeding 110,000?

I do realise length isn't set in stone, but I've worked so hard and long on this. I don't want to have more factors against me than necessary when I send it off.

Suse · Feb 18, 2009

What I was trying to say with all that was that The Last Kingdom does not look like an upper limit book of any genre, let alone historical.

blacbird · Feb 18, 2009

too long adj. modified n. phrase. One more word than you need.

-- Blacbird's Unabridged Dictionary, 2009 ed.

caw

scope · Feb 18, 2009

If you are completely satisfied with your manuscript submit it as is. The word count isn't that excessive. If an agent wants to rep you or an editor wants to publish your work, one or the other (or both) will tell you about any fat which they believe has to be trimmed.

blacbird · Feb 18, 2009

scope said:
If you are completely satisfied with your manuscript submit it as is. The word count isn't that excessive. If an agent wants to rep you or an editor wants to publish your work, one or the other (or both) will tell you about any fat which they believe has to be trimmed.

Problem being, however, there are a lot of agents who won't even look at a manuscript of that length, and will reply to a query with a form rejection simply on that basis. It won't matter how good your manuscript is if nobody ever takes it on for consideration.

caw

Gillhoughly · Feb 18, 2009

Suse--you're looking at finished and bound books to get your formula, right?

The formatting in those is tailored to each novel for readability and to reach a specific page count in keeping with the printer's specifications. It keeps them from wasting paper.

That has nothing to do with the standard manuscript submission page.

The production people at any publishers get to worry about how to fit your raw manuscript into an attractive, readable form, not you. Your job is to write.

Just stick to your one inch all around margins and a 12 point font for Times New Roman, or a 10 point in one of the Couriers and you'll do fine.

This reminds me of when I wanted to write a Star Trek book back when it was still on TV. I counted the words and lines and set my typewriter margins to that size and marked the top and bottom of each page so I wouldn't have too many lines on the page.

After a bit I got to see that the fussing was getting between me and the story, so I chucked it.

And yes, you can TRIM where it's needed. It's part of the craft, learning to self-edit.

Read it aloud to yourself. That's the fast track to learning how.

Arkie · Feb 18, 2009

Suze:

This will probably just confuse you, because I think it has me, but here goes. When I sent my book to Publish America (no recommendation) for printing, I had 103,998 words that translated into 282 typed pages, one inch margin all around, Times Roman, 12-point type.

PA did a reasonable job of putting that into a 6X9 paperback and 245 pages, and oddly enough the finished book print appears larger than the print on my MS, and it is not Times Roman--probably a Courier type. I am puzzled how their print could be larger than what I submitted and the book has 37 less pages than my MS, but nevertheless that is the case, and it is not because of editing, because they didn't do any.

My word document for the 103,998 MS showed 632 kb, so it may be possible to use the kilabytes (sp?) to determine the nunber of pages in the finished product; however, all this information goes out the window if your book is printed hardback with large easy-to-read print.

2Wheels · Feb 18, 2009

Mine rolls in right now at something over 180K words (based on 12 point, 250 words/page MS layout). In typical trade 6 x 9 book layout, it comes in at 625 pages. I looked at similar size 6 x 9's from first time authors, especially in the UK market, and all I gotta aim for is 599 pages. By my reckoning. Six hundred seems to be the make or break mark. Would I bet the farm on it? Nope.

lkp · Feb 18, 2009

Suse, is yours HF? If so, an agent took mine at 120,000 and when I needed to add a little more to it and worried abut length, she said it would be no problem.

At the same time, since it is on the long side, you'd be wise to tighten it as much as you possibly can. Actually everyone would be wise to do that.

scope · Feb 18, 2009

blacbird said:
Problem being, however, there are a lot of agents who won't even look at a manuscript of that length, and will reply to a query with a form rejection simply on that basis. It won't matter how good your manuscript is if nobody ever takes it on for consideration.

caw

Sorry, I misread the word count.

Some text should be trimmed. I think a good final word count to shoot for is
100,000.

Gillhoughly · Feb 18, 2009

Problem being, however, there are a lot of agents who won't even look at a manuscript of that length, and will reply to a query with a form rejection simply on that basis. It won't matter how good your manuscript is if nobody ever takes it on for consideration.

I disagree. Plenty of agents will read the sample chapters and synopsis to see if the writer knows how to write. They know that well considered editing can fix the word count.

Recall, if you will, that the first Harry Potter title was considered to be well over the mark for a children's book, but eventually it did rather well.

scope · Feb 18, 2009

Gillhoughly,

While there's no way I can disagree with you, I'm saying 100,000-125,000 words having the OP in mind. No question there are and will be debut authors who will continue to be the exceptions. But in general I think more agents would be open to reviewing a novel of "normal" size as opposed to 160,000 words. As you well know, longer books are more difficult to sell to publishers (again, there are always exceptions) if for no other reason than the cost of production and corresponding retail price.

blacbird · Feb 19, 2009

Gillhoughly said:
I disagree. Plenty of agents will read the sample chapters and synopsis to see if the writer knows how to write.

Then why do so many of the effers specify "query only", if they're open to reading sample chapters?

caw

Danthia · Feb 19, 2009

blacbird said:
Then why do so many of the effers specify "query only", if they're open to reading sample chapters?

caw

Because they can tell if a writer can write by reading the query. With all the query help nowadays, this can be misleading, and when they get the pages they might find the writing quite different, but it's still a good judge. You'd be surprised at how accurate a query can be to the overall novel. I've read plenty of queries where the problems (or plusses) mirrored the novel itself.

Toothpaste · Feb 19, 2009

I think you misunderstand Blacbird's point. He was responding to Gillhoughly who was saying that agents will read the extra pages sent them and will be able to judge the book on that. Blacbird's point was pointing out that many agents ONLY want a query letter, so you don't always get the chance to have them read those extra pages. He wasn't asking why agents only read queries.

I'm still of the mind, to answer the OP, that while there are always exceptions to the rule, most writers aren't the exception. And I'm a little tired of every author out there thinking they are. Longer MSs are harder to get read. Many agents state on their blogs that they aren't a fan of anything over 120 000. Now if you are lucky, you just might be the exception. And if you want to take that risk, you can. But you have to understand you have a tougher road ahead of you for it, and your writing (all of it, including the query) had better be darn good and succinct. If an agent gets any sense that you are wordy, or like to overwrite, then they are going to assume the reason you have so many words is because you don't know how to edit.

(btw, you know Twilight? Think how huge that book looks on the shelf. That was a debut novel and quite longer than the average. Word count? Around 115 000. Still not over the 120 000 mark - though long for a YA)

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