Harlan Ellison Rant

icerose

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It's why, even as an up and comer that I don't work for free. My time is worth something. If you don't want to pay for it, fine, I'll keep working until I find someone who will.
 

Cranky

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It's why, even as an up and comer that I don't work for free. My time is worth something. If you don't want to pay for it, fine, I'll keep working until I find someone who will.

QFT. That video completely changed my perspective, and I'm glad for it. :)
 

Cranky

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And I gotta disagree with you, at least for writers. I don't know how other industries work (i.e. Hollywood). But considering how much work is put into a single short story, by golly, I'm going with a market that will PAY ME for that work. And there are markets that pay semi- to pro rates. Why shouldn't I start there, rather than sub only to non-paying or token paying markets? To pay dues?

Sheesh. If it's good enough for someone to pay for it, then I want to be paid for it. If the work isn't good enough yet, that means I need to work harder until it is, rather than settle for peanuts. YMMV, of course, but I agree with the main thrust of Ellison's argument.
 

icerose

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I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with a big "fuck you, buddy" to Harlan Ellison.

Oh no, the amateurs are destroying the industry by working for free. What part of the industry are they destroying exactly? Is Hollywood made up of amateur writers, actors, and directors, who upon gaining recognition immediately quit their jobs and go do something else? Of course not. Working for free (or peanuts) is how you get into ANY business. ONCE YOU'RE THERE, i.e. up in Mr Ellison's ivory tower, THEN you can start demanding money for every little thing you do.

Coming from personal experience, I did a couple no dollar options. Where did they go? NOWHERE.

Then I landed a paying gig, where has it gone? Production, and soon to Cannes, plus I got paid for my time and effort.

Feel free to disagree but if someone is serious about getting something done and they are paying everyone but you, that's your fault for not making sure you get paid for your work. You are devaluing yourself and your work by being the only one not paid for whatever you sign up for. Even a token payment is better than nothing and it at least shows they think you and your time and your work is worth something.
 

Bubastes

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Feel free to disagree but if someone is serious about getting something done and they are paying everyone but you, that's your fault for not making sure you get paid for your work. You are devaluing yourself and your work by being the only one not paid for whatever you sign up for. Even a token payment is better than nothing and it at least shows they think you and your time and your work is worth something.

QFT. I was going to post a reply, but this said it all.

ETA: I've been paid for every story I've written. I never had to go the no-pay route, and I'm glad I didn't even consider it.
 
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nmstevens

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I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with a big "fuck you, buddy" to Harlan Ellison.

Oh no, the amateurs are destroying the industry by working for free. What part of the industry are they destroying exactly? Is Hollywood made up of amateur writers, actors, and directors, who upon gaining recognition immediately quit their jobs and go do something else? Of course not. Working for free (or peanuts) is how you get into ANY business. ONCE YOU'RE THERE, i.e. up in Mr Ellison's ivory tower, THEN you can start demanding money for every little thing you do.

To be honest, if he doesn't want his interview on the DVD, that just says to me he had no pride in his work whatsoever. His interview won't sell DVDs, so why the hell do they care if it's not on there? If I was involved with Babylon 5, I would want my interview on the DVD. Plain as that.

He criticises WB for money grubbing, when that's exactly what he's doing. Screw the fans, screw the art, I want my paycheck so I can go and get a bigger pool.

Guy just sounds like an ass.

It doesn't have anything to do with getting a bigger pool.

It has to do with the value of your work.

Someone builds your house.

Someone fixes your car.

Someone treats your disease.

Someone writes the script for your movie.

The same guy who wouldn't for a minute expect any of the first three people to provide their services to him for free, when it comes to writing a script, somehow the rules change.

The fact is, if you really look around, you might be able to find somebody who would build your house for you for free, or fix your car for free, or maybe even treat your disease for free.

But personally, I'd worry about the quality of the work of anybody who did any of those things for you for free.

Because the fact that a person who builds a house, or fixes a car, or a treats a disease -- and fully expects to get paid for it, doesn't mean that he's just out for a buck or looking to screw beginners, whether beginning carpenters or mechanics or doctors.

No. What it means is that he expects to get paid for what his work is worth -- in exactly the same way that when you reach a point as a builder, or a mechanic or a doctor that you are providing services at a professional level (that is, you're no longer a student or an apprentice, paying to learn) -- then you expect to get paid.

The people who really have no pride in their work are the people who give it away.

Because you can bet that the people who buy it measure its worth not in vague intangibles of the kind they toss around in interviews that usually start with the phrase, "Well, you know, it all starts with the writer."

No, they value your work in dollars and cents -- and if they offer you nothing and you accept it, then that's the value they have placed on it -- and that's what you've accepted for it.

So the real point is -- what value does WB place on Harlan Ellison's commentary?

It's very easy to tell. How much were they willing to pay for it?

Oh? Nothing. Then that's exactly how much it was worth to them.

Oh, and everyone else's commentary? What were they willing to pay for that?

Nothing? Then that's exactly what all those other commentaries were worth to them.

Oh, of course the guys who were going to record it, and the the people who were going to rent the equipment and all the rest -- you can bet your ass that they didn't call up and say to them, "Hey, we can't afford to pay you but we'll give you a credit on the DVD."

What do you think those guys would have said to that offer? Take your credit and stick it in your ass Warner Brothers. This is what I charge for a recording session. This is our equipment rental rate.

Pay it or go somewhere else.

Oh, I guess that must mean that they're just a bunch of selfish jerks who want to buy swimming pools and don't care about "the fans."

No? Maybe it means that those guys -- guys who do things like record sound or rent equipment, actually place a value on their work and their labor and they aren't prepared to buy into the same bullshit rap that these companies routinely use (and successfully use) to devalue the labor of writers.

NMS
 

firedrake

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I would never expect a writer the calibre of Harlan Ellison to do anything for free. Why should he provide a freebie?

That was brilliant, it made me laugh. I loved Babylon 5 and one of the main reasons I loved it was because it was well written.
 

icerose

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Icerose, I would be interested to hear more about the gig you did for free.

It's just like I said, nothing happened. They read my work, got really excited, asked for a zero dollar option, it was the first time anyone with credits was interested in my work so I was really excited, I agreed to it, then it went cold. It went absolutely nowhere and I got nothing out of it. Granted I didn't give up anything but waiting for them, but money is partially an indicator of how serious they are, and if they don't have any money invested, it's nothing for them to walk away.

The paying gig I got was purely on the strength of my writing, nothing more.
 

raiboy

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Great post, something everyone at every level should keep in mind.
 

mario_c

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Loquax, I kind of see what you're saying, but you're wrong. No offense. Point #2 is dead wrong: Giving your work away has killed the music and software industries and I don't want it to happen to Hollywood.
Especially in these times when budgets are tightening and people of all professions are being pressured to do more with less, i.e. work harder and harder, and cheaper and cheaper for longer hours. Producers smell a newbie a mile away and they take advantage, in case you haven't heard. When you get that prized pitch session producers will start leaning on you to give your script away because if you don't, someone else will.
Don't fall for it! Writers in general are not businesspeople, which is why there are agents and lawyers whose job it is to stand with us and ensure we get what we deserve. Re Point #1, I love writing but I have to eat. I don't need a million dollars (but I wouldn't say no to it :D) but I have expenses, especially if I have to move to the city to write your movies that make you untold millions.

Re Harlan's rant, I've seen it and while he is an obnoxious prick, he knows the business and what the money men will do to soak the 'help' (think they're doing without a bigger swimming pool? In this 'depression 2.0'? Don't make me laugh).
 

LucidImage

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Point #2 is dead wrong: Giving your work away has killed the music and software industries and I don't want it to happen to Hollywood.

As a former producer in the software industry, I want to point out that technically- no one in the software (or music for that matter) industries were giving away their work. It was people stealing ("pirating") it that started to kill the industry.

Now I do agree with you in your argument, I am just pointing out that the example used isn't 100% accurate. Of course, if all writers actually started breaking in by giving away their work, I would imagine it could be just as detrimental as those examples you used.

Sorry, I am probably splitting hairs here but I couldn't help but point out that those industries were actually affected by pirating not people giving away their work.
 

Hillgate

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If someone thinks they can get something for nothing, they will try to get something for nothing.

If they think they're dealing with someone who wants money for their services, they'll pay or go elsewhere.

Use an agent or lawyer or other middleman and you stand a better chance of being paid properly and less likelihood of them going elsewhere.

If something's worth something to someone, it has a financial value.

Know your worth though in the marketplace: if you won an oscar for best original screenplay you charge X. If you've sold one option for 4k it's worth Y. But the added factor in all of this is what is it worth to the buyer, which can negate X or Y.
 

mario_c

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As a former producer in the software industry, I want to point out that technically- no one in the software (or music for that matter) industries were giving away their work. It was people stealing ("pirating") it that started to kill the industry.

Now I do agree with you in your argument, I am just pointing out that the example used isn't 100% accurate. Of course, if all writers actually started breaking in by giving away their work, I would imagine it could be just as detrimental as those examples you used.

Sorry, I am probably splitting hairs here but I couldn't help but point out that those industries were actually affected by pirating not people giving away their work.
Piracy is a huge issue. There is also a huge number of developers and support personnel who have been exploited, plus the whole open source craze which has it's value, but that is essentially writers (of code) giving away their work for free by the thousands.
 

nmstevens

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Looks like the swimming pool quip didn't go down well at all. To me, this seems like a guy who would charge for autographs. He grates me the wrong way. Okay, I had no idea most blockbuster movies are written by amateurs for nothing. That's a big eye opener, although it makes sense with a lot of the crap that comes out nowadays.

It just seems to me he's placing the blame on the victims rather than the perps.

I guess the above is another "quip" loquax -- you must, in your own way, be advancing -- the "they've got enough money" idea.

Which is that, "Well gee, those rich Hollywood writers (presumably including Harlan Ellison) have got enough money -- so why are they bitching about things like getting paid for doing a DVD commentary, or about getting paid for this, or getting paid for that. It just seems like greed."

The answer is three-fold.

First, The majority of screenwriters aren't "amateurs writing for nothing."

They aren't amateurs at all.

That would be you. You are, I'm guess, an aspiring screenwriter.

What you write nobody is paying anything for. What you write probably isn't even worth stealing -- maybe I'm wrong, but that's how the odds stack up. It's true and always will be true for overwhelming majority of aspiring *anything* -- and certainly for aspiring screenwriters.

Harlan is speaking for those of us whose work has value in the professional world -- that *others* can sell and profit from.

Second, the majority of professional screenwriters aren't making millions from it. They work in television writing, which is very much an on and off job. You can make a decent living at it when you're on a successful show, but when you're not -- you make nothing. And you can make nothing for years at a stretch.

Working as a writer of features, excluding a very small percentage that work at the highest level, it works in a very similar way. You can sell a script or get an assignment or two and make quite a lot of money in a very short time. Or you can go for a year or two years or longer and not get any work at all.

That's the nature of the business. So your implication (and I'm presuming that *was* your implication and that you don't really believe that multi-million dollar movies are written for free by amateurs. You don't really believe that, do you?) that screenwriters are all wealthy -- and certainly that TV writers are all wealthy and "don't need the money" is simply wrong.

If you're a big Hollywood Screenwriter or, in TV, a writer/producer show creator, then you'll be in a small percentage of very wealthy people. But very few screenwriters ever achieve that status.

But third -- for all screenwriters, at every level, the expectation on the part of Studios and networks is essentially the same. They will always try to get as much as they can from you for free.

Whether you're rich or poor, you should be entitled to the full measure of what you have earned. The fact that you are rich doesn't give those you are working for (who are far richer still) the right to pick your pocket.

And rest assured, if they are looking to pick the pockets of the most powerful and successful screenwriters, they certainly have no compunction about doing it to the rest of us.

This business of "it's for the fans" is crap.

You can't value the people who are the end-users of your work if you don't place a value on it yourself.

And as far as people who charge for autographs -- there once was a time when people wanted autographs as keepsakes, because they actually cared about the people, cared about the books, or the baseballs, or whatever it was.

But now, it's just a commodity. It would be one thing if you could sort out people who wanted an autograph because it really meant something to them to people who wanted it because they were going to take the autographed "whatever," mark it up, flip it and sell it.

The same way that collectible stuff used to be just junk that crazy nerds collected -- and then it got coopted by people with real money and next thing you know, Star Wars memorabilia is going to be traded on the freaking stock exchange.

The point is, you're always finding yourself in a position where you're dealing with people -- producers, studio execs, network people -- who only really value things strictly in monetary terms, who will look you in the eye and invoke things like "passion" and "we're all a big family" and all of these immaterial things that *they* aren't prepared to give up anything for -- but they expect you to give up cold hard currency for.

And writers, who are often starved for any kind of praise, any kind of affirmation, any kind of drink in the desert, will go along with it.

Now the fact is -- if it's the only drink there is -- sometimes you have to drink it.

But don't kid yourself. You need to know what you're drinking.

NMS
 

icerose

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And writers, who are often starved for any kind of praise, any kind of affirmation, any kind of drink in the desert, will go along with it.

Now the fact is -- if it's the only drink there is -- sometimes you have to drink it.

But don't kid yourself. You need to know what you're drinking.

NMS

Thankfully I'm far too poor to be willing to work for free. I get my affirmation through my paychecks thank you very much. If I'm making money on my writing, it means someone finds my work worthwhile.

The more I make, the more my work is valued, the better I must be getting at my writing.