To what point does copyright extend?

Superdave · Feb 8, 2009

Hi guys,

Recently I have been taking inspiration from song lyrics and titles for my kids books. They're only short, the type to go with picture books really.

I was wondering though, is it :

1) Acceptable to take a song title and use it as a book title? (I'm thinking "Caught In The Middle"

2) Acceptable to take lyrics from a song and mould a story around it? (e.g "He lives under a waterfall, nobody can see him, nobody can ever hear him call")

Any help or opinions would be abso-blooming-lutely fantastic.

Thanks guys

Dave

semilargeintestine · Feb 8, 2009

To address 1), song titles are not copyrighted. There are plenty of songs that have the same title, as well as books and movies with titles that are also songs. For instance, "The Stranger" by Billy Joel, and The Stranger written by Albert Camus.

For number 2, adaptation requires permission from the copyright holder. If you take "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" and turn it into a book without Mr. Joel's permission, he can sue the pants off you. If you write a book about two high school kids who prematurely tie the knot and subsequently get a divorce, but none of the characters or specifics are the same, you'd most likely be fine as an idea cannot be copyrighted. People might think you ripped it off, but who cares what they think?

gothicangel · Feb 8, 2009

Copyright only exists over the written word; ideas are not.

semilargeintestine · Feb 8, 2009

True, except that--as I said--there are subtleties to that, such as adaptation. Technically, taking a song and turning it into a book or a movie isn't using the written word, but it still requires permission.

By the way, it isn't just the written word. Photographs, phonorecords, etc. are all copyrightable.

maestrowork · Feb 8, 2009

Copyright aside, for me, the idea of taking someone's lyrics and work a story/plot around it borders on plagiarism. Yes, ideas can't be copyrighted. But it depends on how far you go with the lyrics, I suppose, because lyrics are written words, concepts, and specific details. In a way, you're stealing someone's work.

jst5150 · Feb 8, 2009

Copyright laws differ from country to country. Ideas are patented. The visualization of those ideas in word or picture form are trademarked (Coca-Cola, Can You Hear Me Now, cash4gold.com). I believe "Elton John" and "Billy Joel" are both trademarked names. So are "Tony Stewart" and "Jeff Gordon."

It is also important to remember that the Digital Millenium Copyright Act put forth new landscape and frontiers to this discussion. In any case, this is a discussion of law and policy, best had by attornies and those who will review your manuscript for such things.

My sense is that, if you write a story that mimiks someone else's work, it's going to get sniffed out and eventually, there's going to be a barrister on your door step smacking you with, as ray said, a plaguerism suit. Admittedly, there's nothing new under the sun, but if your going-forward premise is to write the novel based on a song, then it ought to be deviated enough so its na original work.

Again, this is a legal discussion best had with an intellectual property attorney. If you're going in wanting to do something like this, consult one. Better than begging forgiveness on the other side of it.

semilargeintestine · Feb 8, 2009

maestrowork said:
Copyright aside, for me, the idea of taking someone's lyrics and work a story/plot around it borders on plagiarism. Yes, ideas can't be copyrighted. But it depends on how far you go with the lyrics, I suppose, because lyrics are written words, concepts, and specific details. In a way, you're stealing someone's work.

It is plagiarism, unless it's sufficiently original, which someone from the patent office would have to determine should a question arise.

Jason said:
Copyright laws differ from country to country. Ideas are patented. The visualization of those ideas in word or picture form are trademarked (Coca-Cola, Can You Hear Me Now, cash4gold.com). I believe "Elton John" and "Billy Joel" are both trademarked names. So are "Tony Stewart" and "Jeff Gordon."

It is also important to remember that the Digital Millenium Copyright Act put forth new landscape and frontiers to this discussion. In any case, this is a discussion of law and policy, best had by attornies and those who will review your manuscript for such things.

My sense is that, if you write a story that mimiks someone else's work, it's going to get sniffed out and eventually, there's going to be a barrister on your door step smacking you with, as ray said, a plaguerism suit. Admittedly, there's nothing new under the sun, but if your going-forward premise is to write the novel based on a song, then it ought to be deviated enough so its na original work.

Again, this is a legal discussion best had with an intellectual property attorney. If you're going in wanting to do something like this, consult one. Better than begging forgiveness on the other side of it.

In the United States, you cannot really patent an idea in the sense that we're talking about. A patent will only be granted if the invention is sufficiently different from or better than any prior art. If you have an idea for something that is already patented, you can build on the idea; if you can show that your way is better/more efficient/etc. than you will receive a patent on said invention. In addition, the invention has to be drawn out in sufficient detail to show the exact properties of it, as well as a description on what it is, how it works, and why it is better.

My responses come from personal experience doing a LOT of research into intellectual property law for school, the result of which was an article put into a legal journal. My knowledge of patents comes from research and my experience filing for them.

jst5150 · Feb 8, 2009

There was a story recently. The story told of a law firm that was trying to patent plot lines. I thought it had succeeded, but I may have been wrong.

Appreciate the correction.

semilargeintestine · Feb 8, 2009

Here is a story that tells what happened. He was given a provisional patent, but those are easy to get. You write out an application and send it in with a fee. That's it. They don't go over it or anything.

In order to patent a plot line, it would have to be completely original or you'd have to be able to prove that it was far better than the previous plots like it, which is impossible given the subjectivity of what plot is better. It won't happen because of these inherent pitfalls, so I wouldn't be too worried. We should strive to improve our copyright laws, not give patents out to people like this.

ETA: Just in case anyone is curious but doesn't feel like clicking the link, his application was denied.

jst5150 · Feb 8, 2009

And still better, to the original point, here is the Web site for the US office of Copyright:

http://www.copyright.gov/

Includes basic and a FAQ.

And here's UK's:

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/

semilargeintestine · Feb 8, 2009

Also to the original post, if you think you might be plagiarizing something, you probably are. If you write something and really think you need to confirm whether it's okay or not, see an IP attorney.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 9, 2009

Jason said:
I believe "Elton John" and "Billy Joel" are both trademarked names. So are "Tony Stewart" and "Jeff Gordon."

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't use their names. It means you can't use their names to sell stuff.

So you can write, sell, and publish a book comparing and contrasting the piano techniques of Elton John and Billy Joel, and you wouldn't need to get clearance from them.

What you can't do is publish a book called "Learn to Play Piano the Elton John/Billy Joel Way" without their authorization.

burgy61 · Feb 9, 2009

I looked into this awhile back, if you use the lyrics from the song you need permission. If you contact the record label they will put you in touch with the people you need to talk to.
In my case they wanted to know how the lyrics were being used, see a copy of the page or pages it was used on and number of books it would be used in.

Wayne K · Feb 9, 2009

Okay, then I need to attach a question to this. What about chapter titles? Some of my chapter titles are song titles.

burgy61 · Feb 9, 2009

Wayne K said:
Okay, then I need to attach a question to this. What about chapter titles? Some of my chapter titles are song titles.

It's my understanding that using titles is okay. The agent I talked to was only concerned with the lyrics and didn't say anything about me using the title to the song.

ideagirl · Feb 10, 2009

Jason said:
Copyright laws differ from country to country. Ideas are patented.

Nope--just like copyright, only the embodiment (patent) or expression (copyright) is protectible. You can't patent an idea, only the machine or substance or chemical process etc. etc. that embodies that idea. And you can't copyright an idea, only the story/song/photo/etc. that expresses that idea.

Jason said:
I believe "Elton John" and "Billy Joel" are both trademarked names. So are "Tony Stewart" and "Jeff Gordon."

You can check what's trademarked here: http://www.uspto.gov Click on Trademarks, then on Search TM Database. Elton John isn't trademarked; I didn't check the rest, but typically people's names are not trademarked. And IceCreamEmpress is correct: even if the name were trademarked, that doesn't prevent you from using it in a story. Be careful, however--Sherlock Holmes' name and everything to do with him is trademarked; you probably can't write a story in which Sherlock Holmes appears as a character, and you almost certainly couldn't write one in which his name appears in the title. In contrast, you probably could write one in which Elton John was a character, because he's a public figure, whereas Sherlock Holmes is someone else's fictional creation, and the estate that controls the rights to Holmes protects them fiercely.

Jason said:
if your going-forward premise is to write the novel based on a song, then it ought to be deviated enough so its na original work.

Yes. Unless the OP gets permission from the copyright holder.

ideagirl · Feb 10, 2009

Wayne K said:
Okay, then I need to attach a question to this. What about chapter titles? Some of my chapter titles are song titles.

Mine are too. Song titles, book titles, etc. are not copyrightable, so there's nothing you're infringing by using them.

But for lyrics, you have to pay. A well-known writer who used a few lines from a song in one of his best-known novels told me it cost him, or rather his publisher, $500 per line of lyrics. But that's not so bad, considering--it's not like he had to pay a percentage of the book sales or something (that would be ridiculous, not just in terms of the amount of money, but in terms of the principle of the thing; no one's buying the book just because such-and-such song is quoted on page 154 or wherever).

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 10, 2009

ideagirl said:
And IceCreamEmpress is correct: even if the name were trademarked, that doesn't prevent you from using it in a story. Be careful, however--Sherlock Holmes' name and everything to do with him is trademarked; you probably can't write a story in which Sherlock Holmes appears as a character, and you almost certainly couldn't write one in which his name appears in the title. In contrast, you probably could write one in which Elton John was a character, because he's a public figure, whereas Sherlock Holmes is someone else's fictional creation, and the estate that controls the rights to Holmes protects them fiercely.

Yes.

You can mention The Name in passing: "Well, you seem to be a regular Sherlock Holmes!" but you can't depict the character without the Conan Doyle estate's permission. They are not playing around with this stuff.

Cyia · Feb 10, 2009

I'm not doing this, but I am curious.

Would it be allowable to have a character who is always sticking their nose into someone else's business given the hated nickname of "Sherlock" without tacking on the "Holmes"?

(I assume "No Sh^t Sherlock" is outside the realm of copyright as well)

burgy61 · Feb 10, 2009

Okay, I went back and found the email I received when I wanted to use the lyrics from a Queen song titled, "I want it all." This might be only through this one agency, but I don't know for sure.

---- Jonathan Belott < wrote:
> Dear Mr. Burgenmeyer,
>
> Your request dated June 7, 2007 to EMI Music Publishing was forwarded to Hal Leonard Corporation for handling.
>
> Before we can consider your request to reprint the lyrics from "I Want It All" in The United States Of America Terrorist, we will need the following information:
>
> a.. The lyric excerpt as it will appear in the publication, including at least one page before and after the excerpt.
> b.. Your complete contact information
> c.. Number of copies to be printed
>
> I look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
> Jonathan Belott
> Permissions Administrator
> Hal Leonard Corporation
>

To what point does copyright extend?

Superdave

semilargeintestine

BassGirl 5000

gothicangel

Toughen up.

semilargeintestine

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maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

semilargeintestine

BassGirl 5000

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

semilargeintestine

BassGirl 5000

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

semilargeintestine

BassGirl 5000

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

burgy61

Wayne K

burgy61

ideagirl

ideagirl

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

burgy61