Grammar in novels

Pupy said:

Is it really important to write with correct grammar?

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Only if you want to get published by someone else...

Knowing grammar is important. Writing with correct grammar isn't always necessary, but when you break the rules, you should do it consciously, with a purpose, not because you don't know them.

Pupy said:

Do people ever get a book publish with shocking grammar that becomes a best seller?

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Only if the bad grammar is part of a narrator's voice, such as in Huck Finn, but even then the author still has to know the rules, in order to break them properly.

Invest in a good grammar book.

And even then, breaking the rules too often can be annoying to the reader. I love getting drawn into a story, and grammatical errors really pull me out of it.

For example, "fiction novel" itself is a bit of a gaffe, since all novels are fiction -- I'll edit the thread title.

All right then. Should we start compiling a list of grammatical errors often stumbled upon?

For one, don't end in prepositions.

Pupy said:

so how does a person learn grammer?
maybe i should return to school

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Certainly that helps. But I think more important than being able to recite the rules is to train your ear to hear the music of grammar, which means reading a lot of books, particularly by good stylists.

So are there any good books to teach you the rules? I'm not the OP but my grammar has gotten pretty bad.

iherzi said:

So are there any good books to teach you the rules? I'm not the OP but my grammar has gotten pretty bad.

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The Elements of Style by Strunk and White is an old standby -- thin, well-written, and useful to any writer.

Grammar can make a world of difference. Somebody posted an example on a comma thread of mine that I really like. (Sorry, I can't remember who you were, but I'm borrowing your example, it really illustrates the importance of proper grammar/punctuation!)

A woman without her man is nothing.

A woman; without her, man is nothing.

The former will likely get you in some hot water nowadays, while you may be able to get away with the latter sentence. Both are sexist, but one semicolon and one comma can decide whether the sentence is misogynistic or . . . misandristic. (Had to look that one up)
Good luck with your grammatical education!

Yes, grammar is important. Without it, meanings get confusing and prose causes headaches.

Ciera_ said:

Grammar can make a world of difference. Somebody posted an example on a comma thread of mine that I really like. (Sorry, I can't remember who you were, but I'm borrowing your example, it really illustrates the importance of proper grammar/punctuation!)

A woman without her man is nothing.

A woman; without her, man is nothing.

The former will likely get you in some hot water nowadays, while you may be able to get away with the latter sentence. Both are sexist, but one semicolon and one comma can decide whether the sentence is misogynistic or . . . misandristic. (Had to look that one up)
Good luck with your grammatical education!

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You might enjoy the recent Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss.

Pupy said:

I'm writing a Novel, Grammar isn't really me, I guess I didn't finish school and well didn't learn a lot about grammar.

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Hi-- this is how grammar can affect your readers.

In the sentence you started with, I had trouble understanding what you meant. On first read, becuase you didn't have a period between 'I guess' and 'I didn't finish school', I had to stop because the sentence I read didn't make sense.

I read it as: "I'm writing a novel. Grammar isn't really me. I guess I didn't finish school." (Um-- you don't know if you didn't finish?)

Which is very different from what (I believe) you were trying to say, which is "Grammar isn't really me, I guess. I didn't finish school and, well, didn't learn a lot about grammar."

You don't want your readers to be confused, even for a moment, on what it is you're really trying to say.

If you want to play the piano well, you will have to learn the keys and chords. If you want to write well, you will have to learn the rules of grammar and mechanics.

I can't explain why it doesn't sound like your writing after editing-- perhaps it's more in your head than any real change. Unless the editor is changing more than just mechanics, and is, say, making your writing more formal when that's not what you want. That's different than editing for grammatical and mechanical correctness.

As for resources, Strunk and White is a great starting place. I also like Writer's Inc, which is chuck full of all sorts of great resources for writing. There's also a workbook if you're inclined to use it. I bought a copy after I used it when student teaching-- it even had world maps, measurement conversions, periodic table along with instruction on writing different types of essays, different types of sentences, and sections on grammar and spelling.

Best of luck. Don't expect to be good enough to publish your first foray into writing... just as you wouldn't expect your first attempts to play the guitar would mean you're good enough to open for your favorite band. =)

Do whatever you have to, but get a handle on how to construct clear, meaningful sentences. It doesn't matter if you haven't memorized the rules and parts of speech, but you have to develop a feel for them.

Reading anything that is written in garbled mudtalk is very tiresome for me -- I drop it in six words. Grammar has a purpose. If we don't agree on what words mean, we can't say what we mean. The same thing if we don't have common rules for using them. Grammar is to writing what the skeleton is to the body. Boneless writing has no shape and just lies there helpless.

Pupy said:

I'm writing a Novel, Grammar isn't really me, I guess I didn't finish school and well didn't learn a lot about grammar...

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I only have two words to say to that.

"Oh" and "dear."

Characters have to have names changed for a lot of reasons. I have changed my main character's name and a lot of others got changed as I wrote or when my beta readers made suggestions. I admit I wouldn't like to see them changed by someone else, unless they could tell me why and it was a good reason

Pupy said:

It is important now I can see that, I have just learnt that to and too have different meanings.

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If this is really the level that you are at, then you have a lot of work ahead of you. On one hand, writing fiction is all about the story, but the way that the story is told -- the nuances (subtle, minor diffferences) in word meaning are important. Despite only being one letter different, there is a big difference between 'to' and 'too.' One really has nothing to do with the other.

You might want to work on your basic language skills before you tackle writing a novel.

Even if you develop perfect grammar, learning to tolerate someone else editing your work is necessary for becoming a professional writer. Although your grammar is rather frightening, and you could probably consider improving it to be a general self-improvement, if you are only concerned about writing the novel I would personally recommend writing it first and not worrying about the grammar until the second draft.

Pupy-- you can also check your community for an adult high school completion program. Those are (as far as I know) free for anyone who doesn't hold a high school diploma. They may have courses in grammar available... which can also help you towards getting your high school diploma. In this ever-tumbling economy, a high school diploma can actually make the difference between, say, working at Wal-Mart for min.wage and working a Lowe's for twice that.

I know a little about adult high school because the program I teach at is adult and alternative... and we offer English grammar courses (usually on the computer, since the Movies v. Books English credits are far more popular. ;-) Call around and see what you can find out.

As for free online courses, use Google. Search for free online grammar courses or free grammar courses or something. Just make sure to read anything THOROUGHLY to find out if free is really "free." =)

Best of luck. You can do this. You're not the only person to not finish high school. You're not the only one who's ever wanted to write even if they're lacking the grammar and mechanics. If you're willing to work, you will, eventually, get where you want to be.

=)

Pupy said:

Is it really important to write with correct grammar?

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That's kind of the point of being a writer. These are the tools we have to communicate ideas. Writers will break them- but they damn well understand them before they move beyond them.

Pupy said:

I find to read books with loads of big words and meanings really tiresome to process.

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You have no idea what you are missing.

Pupy said:

Do people ever get a book publish with shocking grammar that becomes a best seller?

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I believe, based on what you are talking about, the answer here is "no".