Is this Character A Cliche?

gothicangel · Jan 31, 2009

A few days ago I was doing the Mary Sue Litmus Test now I have a niggle about my protaganist . . .

He is the son of a prominient Crown Court Judge; twenty four and a PhD student. He doesn't work; his parents still supply him an income. He hasn't spoken to his father in six years following him getting arrested for possession of Cocaine; he was also a teenage runaway.

Is this a Rich Kid cliche?

scarletpeaches · Jan 31, 2009

Write the book first and I'll tell you.

Akuma · Jan 31, 2009

Frodo was a relunctant hero, but that didn't make him a cliche. Your character sounds good, but it's up to you to give him the spark you're looking for.

gothicangel · Jan 31, 2009

Thanks, that's put my mind at rest.

Last thing I need is something else to obsess over!

Hapax Legomenon · Jan 31, 2009

Okay, one question:

Why are his parents paying for his education if he hasn't spoken to his father in six years? Are his parents divorced and is his mother a CEO or something?

Chris Grey · Jan 31, 2009

There's nothing new under the sun, in and of itself, except maybe Akuma's avatar (who the hell does Squirtle think he is?

). It really depends how you develop your character.

Even Mary Sue can be interesting.

Proach · Jan 31, 2009

Hi Gothicangel,
That depends on what your character does in your book, and how his character develops throughout the story.

gothicangel · Jan 31, 2009

Thanks again.

I think when you look at it flat like that test made me; it made him look, well flat . . . In the novel he's very fiery; rebellious and streetwise. I don't think he's a Rich Kid at all.

Hi Haphazard.

His father pays for his education because it's the only way he'll get him into University. Even though there is a lot of anger; he still wants to do right by his son.

RJK · Jan 31, 2009

Then I'm guessing that would make your MC a childish, immature, and ungrateful little sh*t, correct? Not very likeable, but lots of room for improvement there.

gothicangel · Jan 31, 2009

No, not really. Just twenty four (that point when we think we have it all sussed; just to find out several years down the line we know nothing at all.)

Aschenbach · Jan 31, 2009

gothicangel said:
I think when you look at it flat like that test made me; it made him look, well flat . . .

Ignore the silly online test. It would probably call most great literary characters flat "Mary Sues", whatever a Mary Sue is. Just write the character as best you can, then assess it.

iherzi · Jan 31, 2009

Yeah. It's more about plot and how other characters treat the MC.

Mad Queen · Jan 31, 2009

My three-question test for Mary Sue is:

1- Is most of what happens in your story intended to show how awesome your character is?
2- Do you often find yourself changing the story to stop your character from making mistakes or suffering the unwanted consequences of his mistakes?
3- Does your character often get what he wants effortlessly, either because he's naturally tallented or because other people help him whenever he's in trouble?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, you might be in trouble, but it shouldn't stop you from writing your story.

BAY · Jan 31, 2009

You can't be a fiery rebel and take child support from you parents.

kuwisdelu · Jan 31, 2009

BAY said:
You can't be a fiery rebel and take child support from you parents.

Depends who you're rebelling against.

Shweta · Jan 31, 2009

If he's a PhD student why isn't he trying to get grant money (or, hell, teaching undergrads, there are always undergrads to teach) to get off financial dependence on his parents? In the US at least most PhDs pay for themselves. And it can mean 20-hour a wek jobs that actually take 50+ hours a week but we're not allowed to mention that, so some end up in two such jobs, and it's a great source of conflict/challenge

Hell, I get along great with my parents and have hated the bits of money I've needed to supplement PhD stuff; I wanted to do it independently for my own sense of self-worth. And I'm not a rebel or particularly fiery. And needing money from parents even for reasons of major health issues has really been a downer.

So yes, this sounds to me like an entitled Rich Kid who thinks the world owes him a living. And I sympathize with his father (found with cocaine on him and he thinks he gets to take the money and be snotty?) ETA: And I suspect his fellow grad students will resent his not needing to work himself to the bone just to make rent, and do the research on top of that.
But. He can still be that and be an interesting character, I think, so long as the writer isn't being all sunshine and flowers over the character and thinking he's lovely and perfect. In fact, that sort of thing can be really intriguing, the conflict between rebel nature and entitlement/assumptions. So long as the story challenges him there.

gothicangel · Feb 1, 2009

Definitely not a Mary Sue then!

In the UK it is exceptionally difficult to get sponsorship [we don't get grants for postgrad]. I can't see any student WANTING to work; if there is a steady supply of money available. I'm second year Undergrad - I wish I didn't have to work; I'm already seeing grades slipping because of it.

A few of my tutors are PhD students; one I've got to know through a reading group. Even he struggles to balance his own studies with teaching.

You're obviously different to those I'm studying with! Most of them have no qualms over getting their income supplementing by their parents. I have no choice; my parents are retired and struggle to pay their bills themselves.

But yes; there is a strong conflict within the character. He's rebelling against his father rather than making a social stand.

Re the drug incident: it's not as black and white as it would appear . . .

Hillgate · Feb 1, 2009

gothicangel said:
A few days ago I was doing the Mary Sue Litmus Test now I have a niggle about my protaganist . . .

He is the son of a prominient Crown Court Judge; twenty four and a PhD student. He doesn't work; his parents still supply him an income. He hasn't spoken to his father in six years following him getting arrested for possession of Cocaine; he was also a teenage runaway.

Is this a Rich Kid cliche?

Sounds like Lou Reed...all you need is a bit of electro-shock therapy and lithium

Kalyke · Feb 1, 2009

Americans don't get grants for post graduate work either-- they can get grants but they are not the ones from student financial aid. I think if your student is lucky enough to have rich parents who allow this then he may as well take advantage of it.

As for the cocaine and running away: many people are inspired by bad situations that happened to them. I think he should try to eventually speak with his father, but they don't need to be friends. I think a lot of people are on the outs with their parents and it gives added dimention to the character.

I just want to know why it is important to put in the drug use and all that? If the novel is not about drug use, then it is not necessary to put in, except as a small bit of back story.

gothicangel · Feb 1, 2009

It's to do with his friends. Let's just say it wasn't his; but it's pretty important to the plot.

tehuti88 · Feb 1, 2009

The reason I avoid "Mary Sue" tests is because just about any character can fall into this category. The test only tests for individual aspects of character, not how they all tie together or how originally the character ends up written. It's like taking a psychological test online--it can be informative, but you really should NOT rely on the results for a diagnosis.

As others have said, only once the story has been written can one say for sure whether a character is a Mary Sue or not. (And sometimes not even then.)

Anyway, good luck making your character as original and three dimensional as you can.

Shweta · Feb 1, 2009

gothicangel said:
Definitely not a Mary Sue then!

In the UK it is exceptionally difficult to get sponsorship [we don't get grants for postgrad]. I can't see any student WANTING to work; if there is a steady supply of money available. I'm second year Undergrad - I wish I didn't have to work; I'm already seeing grades slipping because of it.

Who wants to work?

Doesn't the UK have fellowships and such one can apply for, though? It's pretty much the way you get through grad school here -- you apply for fellowships and small grants and research positions, and it's a royal pain but it's practice for the profession; and you teach and that's also a royal pain but it's practice, again.

It's quite a bit harder to work & study as an undergraduate, cause the work is generally unrelated to your studies.

A few of my tutors are PhD students; one I've got to know through a reading group. Even he struggles to balance his own studies with teaching.

There's a reason there's an entire book called "Grad school is hell"

And many reasons most people do not finish PhDs.

You're obviously different to those I'm studying with! Most of them have no qualms over getting their income supplementing by their parents. I have no choice; my parents are retired and struggle to pay their bills themselves.

Oh, I had none as an undergrad Grad school is different. It's a professional level rather than just a student level to be at.

But yes; there is a strong conflict within the character. He's rebelling against his father rather than making a social stand.

Re the drug incident: it's not as black and white as it would appear . . .

Cool!

KikiteNeko · Feb 1, 2009

The situation is cliche, but I mean, what isn't? (in fact, am I related to you? I could swear you've met my cousin based on that) If you can write him in a unique and interesting way, I think it'll work.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 1, 2009

I went to grad school with people who didn't speak to their parents, but who were using the money from a trust or savings account set up by said parents to fund their tuition and/or living expenses.

So that part seems realistic enough to me.

gothicangel · Feb 2, 2009

IceCreamExpress: thanks that's very useful to know!

This is great, it's making me scrutinise my character more. Realised that I created this character a good few years ago and never changed him. This has helped so much!

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