Writing a battle from first person.

Nivarion · Jan 29, 2009

Wow we sure do talk about medival war a lot in here, don't we. After working my way through Bahamutchild's thread, and not finding anything i really needed, i decided to ask.

I hate writing a battle scene, i always seem to catch it all wrong. they stop me up and then give me writers block. but unfortunately i have a lot of them in my WIP. A LOT.

so, any tips on writing them in a way that will help me get them down without telling about what is happening, describing what they are doing, and the flow of soldiers (all with showing)

any tips?

Fenika · Jan 29, 2009

Several of the links I found did have tips on how to structure the writing. The use of filters and not getting caught up in he did x while so and so did y... stuff like that.

I think the important thing is catching the details (that's the filter again) more so that describing the whole flow of battle. Sprinkle in enough so the reader knows what's going on, but stay close to your MC.

Last general bit of advice: Read some books with epic battles. Go back and read books you've read with battles (not the whole book per say). Study it from several angles: The pacing, the details, w/e.

And just to be picky: I know show vs tell gets a lot of talk, but when you have things like the flow of soldiers, you have to tell. There's nothing wrong with tell unless it can be shown (character emotion for ex) or it's repeated again and again. I'm not picking on you here, I'm just defending the tell. Say it and move on to the good stuff

Diana Hignutt · Jan 29, 2009

I agree, staying close to your MC's POV is the way to go. What can they see? What are they doing, feeling.

Higgins · Jan 29, 2009

Diana Hignutt said:
I agree, staying close to your MC's POV is the way to go. What can they see? What are they doing, feeling.

Here's an actual scene from an actual battle:

It was gained at last
by the signal valour of Edward Stanley, lieutenant to Sir William. That
officer, at the commencement of an assault upon a not very practicable
breach, sprang at the long pike of a Spanish soldier, who was endeavoring
to thrust him from the wall, and seized it with both hands. The Spaniard
struggled to maintain his hold of the weapon, Stanley to wrest it from
his grasp. A dozen other soldiers broke their pikes upon his cuirass or
shot at him with their muskets. Conspicuous by his dress, being all in
yellow but his corslet, he was in full sight of Leicester and of five
thousand men. The earth was so shifty and sandy that the soldiers who
were to follow him were not able to climb the wall. Still Stanley
grasped his adversary's pike, but, suddenly changing his plan, he allowed
the Spaniard to lift him from the ground. Then, assisting himself with
his feet against the wall, he, much to the astonishment of the
spectators, scrambled quite over the parapet, and dashed sword in hand
among the defenders of the fort. Had he been endowed with a hundred
lives it seemed impossible for him to escape death. But his followers,
stimulated by his example, made ladders for themselves of each others'
shoulders, clambered at last with great exertion over the broken wall,
overpowered the garrison, and made themselves masters of the sconce.
Leicester, transported with enthusiasm for this noble deed of daring,
knighted Edward Stanley upon the spot, besides presenting him next day
with forty pounds in gold and an annuity of one hundred marks, sterling
for life. "Since I was born, I did never see any man behave himself as
he did," said the Earl. "I shall never forget it, if I live a thousand
year, and he shall have a part of my living for it as long as I live."

from
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyoftheunit04848gut/jm48v10.txt

Nivarion · Jan 30, 2009

Bahamutchild said:
Several of the links I found did have tips on how to structure the writing. The use of filters and not getting caught up in he did x while so and so did y... stuff like that.

I think the important thing is catching the details (that's the filter again) more so that describing the whole flow of battle. Sprinkle in enough so the reader knows what's going on, but stay close to your MC.

Last general bit of advice: Read some books with epic battles. Go back and read books you've read with battles (not the whole book per say). Study it from several angles: The pacing, the details, w/e.

And just to be picky: I know show vs tell gets a lot of talk, but when you have things like the flow of soldiers, you have to tell. There's nothing wrong with tell unless it can be shown (character emotion for ex) or it's repeated again and again. I'm not picking on you here, I'm just defending the tell. Say it and move on to the good stuff

huh, i guess they were farther down. (the links) I do try to avoid the x did y did stuff. so after trying to weed the tell from my writing, i have to put some back. well that helps, some scenes have been a SOB to write recently, i think i am going over board again.

Diana Hignutt said:
I agree, staying close to your MC's POV is the way to go. What can they see? What are they doing, feeling.

this i does, however, describing somethings are just... awkward. i use the word Barbarian far too much.

Higgins said:
Here's an actual scene from an actual battle:

It was gained at last
by the signal valour of Edward Stanley, lieutenant to Sir William. That
officer, at the commencement of an assault upon a not very practicable
breach, sprang at the long pike of a Spanish soldier, who was endeavoring
to thrust him from the wall, and seized it with both hands. The Spaniard
struggled to maintain his hold of the weapon, Stanley to wrest it from
his grasp. A dozen other soldiers broke their pikes upon his cuirass or
shot at him with their muskets. Conspicuous by his dress, being all in
yellow but his corslet, he was in full sight of Leicester and of five
thousand men. The earth was so shifty and sandy that the soldiers who
were to follow him were not able to climb the wall. Still Stanley
grasped his adversary's pike, but, suddenly changing his plan, he allowed
the Spaniard to lift him from the ground. Then, assisting himself with
his feet against the wall, he, much to the astonishment of the
spectators, scrambled quite over the parapet, and dashed sword in hand
among the defenders of the fort. Had he been endowed with a hundred
lives it seemed impossible for him to escape death. But his followers,
stimulated by his example, made ladders for themselves of each others'
shoulders, clambered at last with great exertion over the broken wall,
overpowered the garrison, and made themselves masters of the sconce.
Leicester, transported with enthusiasm for this noble deed of daring,
knighted Edward Stanley upon the spot, besides presenting him next day
with forty pounds in gold and an annuity of one hundred marks, sterling
for life. "Since I was born, I did never see any man behave himself as
he did," said the Earl. "I shall never forget it, if I live a thousand
year, and he shall have a part of my living for it as long as I live."

from
http://www.archive.org/stream/historyoftheunit04848gut/jm48v10.txthttp://www.archive.org/stream/historyoftheunit04848gut/jm48v10.txt

LOL, he climbed his their pikes! thats more awesome than any thing i have thought of yet.

i think the problem might be that i lose someone in almost every battle, hence my hate and dread of writing them. well i guess its just time to make the hike. it'll help me write in my survivors pain i guess.

Straka · Feb 3, 2009

I would suggest reading John Keegan's The Face of Battle, early on he discusses how accounts of battles are written and the ramifications of using them in a historical perspective.

Higgins · Feb 3, 2009

Straka said:
I would suggest reading John Keegan's The Face of Battle, early on he discusses how accounts of battles are written and the ramifications of using them in a historical perspective.

Memoirs such as those of Robert Graves and Seigfried Sassoon might be helpful too.

http://homes.ukoln.ac.uk/~lispjh/graves/

And a ghost story:

[SIZE=+1]40. Corporal Stare[/SIZE] B[SIZE=-1]ACK[/SIZE] from the line one night in June,I gave a dinner at Bethune—Seven courses, the most gorgeous mealMoney could buy or batman steal.Five hungry lads welcomed the fish[SIZE=-2] 5[/SIZE]With shouts that nearly cracked the dish;Asparagus came with tender tops,Strawberries in cream, and mutton chops.Said Jenkins, as my hand he shook,“They’ll put this in the history book.”[SIZE=-2] 10[/SIZE]We bawled Church anthems in choroOf Bethlehem and Hermon snow,With drinking songs, a jolly soundTo help the good red Pommard round.Stories and laughter interspersed,[SIZE=-2] 15[/SIZE]We drowned a long La Bassée thirst—Trenches in June make throats damned dry.Then through the window suddenly,Badge, stripes and medals all complete,We saw him swagger up the street,[SIZE=-2] 20[/SIZE]Just like a live man—Corporal Stare!Stare! Killed last May at Festubert.Caught on patrol near the Boche wire,Torn horribly by machine-gun fire!He paused, saluted smartly, grinned,[SIZE=-2] 25[/SIZE]Then passed away like a puff of wind,Leaving us blank astonishment.The song broke, up we started, leantOut of the window—nothing there,Not the least shadow of Corporal Stare,[SIZE=-2] 30[/SIZE]Only a quiver of smoke that showedA fag-end dropped on the silent road.

Higgins · Feb 3, 2009

Higgins said:
Memoirs such as those of Robert Graves and Seigfried Sassoon might be helpful too.

http://homes.ukoln.ac.uk/~lispjh/graves/

And a ghost story:

[SIZE=+1]40. Corporal Stare[/SIZE] B[SIZE=-1]ACK[/SIZE] from the line one night in June,I gave a dinner at Bethune—Seven courses, the most gorgeous mealMoney could buy or batman steal.Five hungry lads welcomed the fish[SIZE=-2] 5[/SIZE]With shouts that nearly cracked the dish;Asparagus came with tender tops,Strawberries in cream, and mutton chops.Said Jenkins, as my hand he shook,“They’ll put this in the history book.”[SIZE=-2] 10[/SIZE]We bawled Church anthems in choroOf Bethlehem and Hermon snow,With drinking songs, a jolly soundTo help the good red Pommard round.Stories and laughter interspersed,[SIZE=-2] 15[/SIZE]We drowned a long La Bassée thirst—Trenches in June make throats damned dry.Then through the window suddenly,Badge, stripes and medals all complete,We saw him swagger up the street,[SIZE=-2] 20[/SIZE]Just like a live man—Corporal Stare!Stare! Killed last May at Festubert.Caught on patrol near the Boche wire,Torn horribly by machine-gun fire!He paused, saluted smartly, grinned,[SIZE=-2] 25[/SIZE]Then passed away like a puff of wind,Leaving us blank astonishment.The song broke, up we started, leantOut of the window—nothing there,Not the least shadow of Corporal Stare,[SIZE=-2] 30[/SIZE]Only a quiver of smoke that showedA fag-end dropped on the silent road.

From http://www.bartleby.com/120/40.html

Oh more poets (photo is of Edward Thomas, about 3 years before he was blown up at Arras on April 9, 1917):

(From http://net.lib.byu.edu/english/wwi/poets/poets.html)

Strange as the races
Of dead and unborn:
Strange and sweet
Equally,
And familiar,
To the eye,
As the dearest faces
That a man knows,
And as lost homes are:
But though older far
Than oldest yew, --
As our hills are, old, --
Worn new
Again and again,
Young as our streams
After rain:
And as dear
As the earth which you prove
That we love.

Make me content
With some sweetness
From Wales
Whose nightingales
Have no wings, --
From Wiltshire and Kent
And Herefordshire,
And the villages there, --
From the names, and the things
No less.
Let me sometimes dance
With you,
Or climb
Or stand perchance
In ecstacy,
Fixed and free
In a rhyme,
As poets do.

Edward Thomas (1878-1917)

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 3, 2009

War and battle are about people. First person you'd show what he sees. The death and destruction around him. The ebb and flow of the fighting.

I know you didn't ask, but in third person, again, it's about people. Focus on small scrimages that involve individuals, let the battle swirl and flow around them. I wrote an epic battle that lasted months and vaguely talked about the war itself, I focused on people around the war, messengers delivering updates to generals. Discussions of people back home on what was going on. Men on the front line talking about home during a lull. That sort of thing.

dclary · Feb 3, 2009

Some of the most important battles in Tolkien's works were never written at all.

The Battle of Five Armies: he leads up to it, then Bilbo knocks himself out, and Tolkien doesn't have to describe it, except as related back to bilbo in a more casual "highlights only" manner (such as Beorn's appearance, etc.)

The death of Boromir is never shown. We hear his horn, and find him dying, as he gives his confession to Aragorn.

Tolkien knew that the stories weren't about the battles or the tactics, or the strategies. They were about the people in them, and how they tried to survive through difficult times, even when hope seemed lost.

dpaterso · Feb 3, 2009

Who's your protag? The general, an observer, a grunt, a major hero, etc.? Is he watching the big picture from the hilltop, or is he down there amid the chaos, swinging his sword or his laser-axe?

-Derek

Straka · Feb 3, 2009

Again to bring up Keegan's work, he talks greatly about the difference between a battle vs. and an engagement. How a firefight in Vietnam between squads isn't a battle compared to Waterloo. Then again if your doing first person from a grunt, then they aren't going to see the entirety of the battle unless they are lucky enough (or unlucky if there are snipers) to be field observers on the high ground.

You can only see what's in front of you and rarely have an opportunity to understand the entirety of the battle.

I've played in a few massive paintball games, one was 2000 vs 2000 players that lasted 2 days and a night and believe you me it was impossible to understand the flow of battle. Even with a radio link to the General. Afterward when we were doing AARs and just trading stories I was amazed at just how different people's perspectives on the battle was.

Nivarion · Feb 3, 2009

dpaterso said:
Who's your protag? The general, an observer, a grunt, a major hero, etc.? Is he watching the big picture from the hilltop, or is he down there amid the chaos, swinging his sword or his laser-axe?

-Derek

in the first battle he is in, he is just another villager (even though he is well trained) in a near massacre. in some of the latter battles he is one of the commanders in a sort of federation style army.

the other commanders die, and he is now the general of the whole thing.

however, he is not a sit back on the hill kind of guy, and leads the battles in most of them. (i know this is not smart for a general, even one with awesome armor.)

some of my other characters in another place fight in gorilla styles, and i can write those easier. (so and so threw a knife, which stuck in the guards throat type stuff)

its just the massive every one is in every one else's face stuff that i have problems with. (and the oh man my friends died stuff after)

dpaterso · Feb 3, 2009

Random thoughts. Once he's in the battle, your protag only has one pair of eyes and can't see everything -- just the guy right in front of him who's doing his damnedest to kill him. So maybe he'll have a series of personal fights that match the timing of the battle -- as the last enemy he's fighting dies on his sword, the battle grinds to a halt and to his surprise, they've won. Everything else is deafening noise, cries of alarm, garbled reports, shouted orders, agonized screams, and a crush of bodies pushing this way and that, falling against him, sliding down dead, etc. His vision can be reduced with spattered blood and his hearing impaired by a blow to the helmet, distorting his perception further. Fun stuff!

-Derek

dclary · Feb 3, 2009

gorilla styles, eh?

Memnon624 · Feb 3, 2009

Read the battle sequence in The Red Badge of Courage (though it's the Civil War, try as you read to imagine it's a fantasy skirmish). Also, pick up Gates of Fire and see how Pressfield describes the battle of Thermopylae in first person. Between the two it's like battle-writin' 101 . . .

Best,

Scott

Nivarion · Feb 3, 2009

dpaterso said:
Random thoughts. Once he's in the battle, your protag only has one pair of eyes and can't see everything -- just the guy right in front of him who's doing his damnedest to kill him. So maybe he'll have a series of personal fights that match the timing of the battle -- as the last enemy he's fighting dies on his sword, the battle grinds to a halt and to his surprise, they've won. Everything else is deafening noise, cries of alarm, garbled reports, shouted orders, agonized screams, and a crush of bodies pushing this way and that, falling against him, sliding down dead, etc. His vision can be reduced with spattered blood and his hearing impaired by a blow to the helmet, distorting his perception further. Fun stuff!

-Derek

okay, so now for the retreats! his side loses the first battle, and any one that can, runs away. about the same right?

his first battle has tripped me bad.

its a calm autumn night, my three mains for this part of the story are hanging out in the hay loft, and it is lightly snowing outside. a shout brings them running out of the barn with what ever makeshift weapons they
can grab from the barn. running out of the woods is about a hundred barbarians (my worlds version of vikings) battle ensues, my MC's who are 3 out of six peoples in the whole little armpit of the world town that know how to fight.

6x100. doesn't matter who you are, your going to lose. the rest of the story stems from this battle, as my mains are chasing the barbarians (that's another one of my problems ill ask about in a bit) to get the women they took as "Population support" back from them. the rest are victory after victory, as an Aram (Aram traitor) general is leading the army in most of the engagements.

I am so rambling on and on now.

but now to my points. i have more or less found little in the way of the thesaurus for barbarian, and opponent. Shaggy men sounds funny, and Barbarian twists the tongue even when you aren't saying if if it gets used over and over.

any tips on what to call the other guy in the fight?

Death Wizard · Feb 3, 2009

Here's an interesting trick from Stephen King, though I'm sure he's not the only one to say it. When something happens really fast, write it really slow: The single stroke of a sword might take a dozen long sentences. When something happens really slow, write it really fast: The overall course of the battle is summarized in a couple of paragraphs.

This technique creates a severely contrasting dichotomy that helps to ramp up the tension.

Nivarion · Feb 3, 2009

dclary said:
gorilla styles, eh?

yep gorilla styles. i have two story lines, that are tied together in the north and the south hemisphere.

what is going on in the south has a bit of humor that a can't relate, but i know it.

about forty years (nothing to elves) before this, there was a massive world war, it had been going on for about a hundred years (a longer time to elves) and would still be going on but for a demon invasion in the all of the contents but Tek. as it turned out on the demons side, it had been worked out by messengers that ran to all of the caves so that on about the same day they all would attack. but the messenger to the Tekken (i should think of a new name, just cause of that) got rained on and the date on the message was a little smeared.

they are over powering the whole contenent because it is just a bunch of city states. the normal go to guys in this stuff are the Ariam and the Ardol (these two nations were founded to protect the world in the case of another demon attack. however, due to mixed communications, half of the ariam army has gone north to take care of the miss-counted army of my other MC's, which is being led by one of their most wanted.

so the characters in one of the cities (still naming but it is currently the City of Channel) are fighting a war from the sewers.

Nivarion · Feb 3, 2009

deathwizard said:
Here's an interesting trick from Stephen King, though I'm sure he's not the only one to say it. When something happens really fast, write it really slow: The single stroke of a sword might take a dozen long sentences. When something happens really slow, write it really fast: The overall course of the battle is summarized in a couple of paragraphs.

This technique creates a severely contrasting dichotomy that helps to ramp up the tension.

wow, why don't i hear about this stuff sooner, did he say anything else like that? i mention time slowing when my guys bet in serious danger but any thing to build up the tension.

sometimes, reading my battles is like reciting a shopping list.

ragefaith · Feb 3, 2009

Nivarion said:
any tips on what to call the other guy in the fight?

Enemy? Personally, my MC fights a good-looking man, which scares me a hell of a lot more than if he was fighting something with a physical defect. At least with something like an Orc, you can tell they're the bad guy.

Nivarion · Feb 3, 2009

Straka said:
Again to bring up Keegan's work, he talks greatly about the difference between a battle vs. and an engagement. How a firefight in Vietnam between squads isn't a battle compared to Waterloo. Then again if your doing first person from a grunt, then they aren't going to see the entirety of the battle unless they are lucky enough (or unlucky if there are snipers) to be field observers on the high ground.

You can only see what's in front of you and rarely have an opportunity to understand the entirety of the battle.

I've played in a few massive paintball games, one was 2000 vs 2000 players that lasted 2 days and a night and believe you me it was impossible to understand the flow of battle. Even with a radio link to the General. Afterward when we were doing AARs and just trading stories I was amazed at just how different people's perspectives on the battle was.

wholly cow i want to go paint balling with you! that would be something to see though, I've been paint balling once, and almost never saw where it was coming from. except for the time i wholled my self up in the crate, then i was the one giving it but. hey.

Death Wizard · Feb 3, 2009

Nivarion said:
wow, why don't i hear about this stuff sooner, did he say anything else like that? i mention time slowing when my guys bet in serious danger but any thing to build up the tension.

sometimes, reading my battles is like reciting a shopping list.

If you really concentrate on doing this purposefully, it becomes very effective.

The slow knife stab in Saving Private Ryan is a good example.

Straka · Feb 3, 2009

Nivarion said:
wholly cow i want to go paint balling with you! that would be something to see though, I've been paint balling once, and almost never saw where it was coming from. except for the time i wholled my self up in the crate, then i was the one giving it but. hey.

There are some games in texas I'm sure. The one I went to was in PA based around the Normany invasion. The beach landing was crazy, there was so much paint flying in the air it looked like clouds.

dclary · Feb 3, 2009

Nivarion said:
yep gorilla styles. i have two story lines, that are tied together in the north and the south hemisphere.

what is going on in the south has a bit of humor that a can't relate, but i know it.

about forty years (nothing to elves) before this, there was a massive world war, it had been going on for about a hundred years (a longer time to elves) and would still be going on but for a demon invasion in the all of the contents but Tek. as it turned out on the demons side, it had been worked out by messengers that ran to all of the caves so that on about the same day they all would attack. but the messenger to the Tekken (i should think of a new name, just cause of that) got rained on and the date on the message was a little smeared.

they are over powering the whole contenent because it is just a bunch of city states. the normal go to guys in this stuff are the Ariam and the Ardol (these two nations were founded to protect the world in the case of another demon attack. however, due to mixed communications, half of the ariam army has gone north to take care of the miss-counted army of my other MC's, which is being led by one of their most wanted.

so the characters in one of the cities (still naming but it is currently the City of Channel) are fighting a war from the sewers.

Gorillas in the sewers?

Writing a battle from first person.

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