Remedial Structure Question re: Paragraphing

rabid · Jan 27, 2009

Hello!

I would be ever so grateful if some one could provide a bit of clarity regarding a heretofore unknown rule about paragraph structure that was recently pointed out to me via an intraweb forum.

In terms of fiction writing, I get that "In dialogue, each speech, even if only a single word is usually a paragraph by itself; that is, a new paragraph begins with each change of the speaker." (Strunk & White - page 16 of the 4th edition if you really care all that much. Yes, I know this citation format is wrong - shove off).

BUT! here is ladies and gents, hold onto your hats. I was told fairly recently that some how that rule up there, means:

"When a new CHARACTER acts they're supposed to get a new paragraph. As long as the SPEAKER is acting, the Speaker HAS NOT CHANGED. However, every time a NEW CHARACTER acts, you ARE changing Speakers - even if they don't talk! Therefore, each NEW CHARACTER acting gets a new paragraph, whether or not they have dialogue."

That's a direct quote - I usually express my own enthusiasm with italics as I find them much fitter. Now, is that true? You can't have multiple characters acting all within one paragraph?

Thus when J.K. Rowling writes all in one paragraph:
Harry found his attentiveness ebbing, as though his brain was slipping in and out of tune. The quiet that always filled the Hall when Dumbledore was speaking was breaking up as students put their heads together, whispering and giggling. Over at the Ravenclaw table Cho Chang was chatting animatedly with her friends. A few seats along from Cho, Luna Lovegood got out The Quibbler again. Meanwhile at the Hufflepuff table, Ernie Macmillan was one of the few still staring at Professor Umbridge, but he was glassy-eyed and Harry was sure he was only pretending to listen in an attempt to live up to the new prefect's badge gleaming on his chest.

She really rather should have written:
Harry found his attentiveness ebbing, as though his brain was slipping in and out of tune. The quiet that always filled the Hall when Dumbledore was speaking was breaking up as students put their heads together, whispering and giggling.

New Paragraph
Over at the Ravenclaw table Cho Chang was chatting animatedly with her friends.

New Paragraph? - as Luna is acting now, as opposed to Cho
A few seats along from Cho, Luna Lovegood got out The Quibbler again.

New Paragraph
Meanwhile at the Hufflepuff table, Ernie Macmillan was one of the few still staring at Professor Umbridge, but he was glassy-eyed and Harry was sure he was only pretending to listen in an attempt to live up to the new prefect's badge gleaming on his chest.

I don't recall learning this particular structural rule (perhaps that speaks poorly of my public school education) and it bothers me to no end.

Help? Thank you kindly in advance!

maestrowork · Jan 27, 2009

Where did you hear that every time someone else acts it should be a new paragraph? Boy, that would create a lot of unnecessary paragraphs.

There really is no rule -- at least not that I know of -- on actions as long as a new line of dialogue hasn't spoken (thus, the focus hasn't changed to another character). Some people separate out every action by different characters; some don't.

In your example, the paragraph is totally narrative -- there's absolutely no need to create a new paragraph every time someone else does something. Otherwise, you will find yourself having many very short paragraphs.

The only reason I would start a new paragraph is when the focus has changed -- sometimes it's very subtle. A paragraph is a logical unit, and when something doesn't belong to that unit, it can be separated out:

"That's very hot," Jack said. He put down the spoon and stuck out his tongue. "It burns!" He then pushed the bowl away.

Mary laughed and went over to pick up the bowl. Jack put his hand on it, not allowing her to take it. She laughed again, then quickly grabbed the bowl and ran. Jack ran after her.

"Come back," he said. "Now."

In this example, there are three paragraphs, even though only one person speaks. But there are three logical units: first, Jacks said something and acted; then Mary did something else and Jack reacted to that; and finally, Jack said something again.

It's still not really a rule. It's done this way for clarity. In fact, some may put it all in one paragraph (since only Jack speaks):

"That's very hot," Jack said. He put down the spoon and stuck out his tongue. "It burns!" He then pushed the bowl away. Mary laughed and went over to pick up the bowl. Jack put his hand on it, not allowing her to take it. She laughed again, then quickly grabbed the bowl and ran. Jack ran after her. "Come back," he said. "Now."

To me, even though technically it still works since there's only one speaker, the paragraph is very convoluted with multiple dialogue. It's just clunky.

The other way (different paragraphs for different characters) simply reads choppy:

"That's very hot," Jack said. He put down the spoon and stuck out his tongue. "It burns!" He then pushed the bowl away.

Mary laughed and went over to pick up the bowl.

Jack put his hand on it, not allowing her to take it.

She laughed again, then quickly grabbed the bowl and ran.

Jack ran after her. "Come back," he said. "Now."

Again, there's no rule against that. To me, it just reads really choppy. I do prefer grouping the middle actions together, only separating the paragraphs out based on logical units.

At the end, it's a stylistic choice, not a rule.

nevada · Jan 27, 2009

Wrong. That whole paragraph is Harry's POV and therefore you do not have to change paragraphs each time a different character does something. Whoever told you that misunderstood the dialogue/paragraph rule. You are not changing speakers when a character acts because the "speaker" at all time is Harry. If you changed speakers every time a different character acts, that would be head hopping, a sin punishable by beheading. You may go back to the person who told you that and tell him that he needs to learn about POV, especially 3rd person limited and the evils of head hopping.

dpaterso · Jan 27, 2009

rabid said:
BUT! here is ladies and gents, hold onto your hats. I was told fairly recently that some how that rule up there, means:

"When a new CHARACTER acts they're supposed to get a new paragraph. As long as the SPEAKER is acting, the Speaker HAS NOT CHANGED. However, every time a NEW CHARACTER acts, you ARE changing Speakers - even if they don't talk! Therefore, each NEW CHARACTER acting gets a new paragraph, whether or not they have dialogue."

Crap, and a muddied explanation. The POV character may describe as many different character actions, including his/her own, either in the same paragraph or broken over several paragraphs for clarity, as he/she likes.

Anyways, welcome to the board. Right at the top of the forums list on our main page you'll see Newbie Forum, should you feel inclined to introduce yourself and say hi to everyone.

And you may find The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write helpful.

-Derek

rabid · Jan 28, 2009

Beheading, eh? Sounds lovely!
Btw, I've decided I love you because you're saucy and witty.
I posted the same Harry Potter example back to this person - who says they have been published since the 1980s and responded that Rowling go to do ask she please because she was making $. I don't doubt that statement might have some merit. But she or he - come to think of it, did indicate that the chopping up into little paragraphs was the right way to do it, and even reordered and reworded some of the original sentences.

Makai_Lightning · Jan 28, 2009

Considering it's possible to have two characters acting within the same sentence, I think that "rule" that you'd have to have a new paragraph for each new character acting a tad... off.

To hijack part of maestro's example, as I'm not feeling especially creative;

Jack put down the spoon and stuck out his tongue, causing Mary to laugh.

Meh, not the best example, but you should get what I mean.

It might not always be the best idea to keep all the actions of the characters together, but it certainly doesn't seem like it makes coherent sense to always split it up.

As maestro said, paragraphing is done where whole ideas are contained, and for clarity.

RJK · Jan 28, 2009

Welcome to AW.

How would your advisor handle this:

Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and Jill came tumbling after.

nevada · Jan 28, 2009

freeform poetry!!!

Jack

and Jill

Went up to hill to fetch a pail of water.

Jack fell down

Jill came tumbling after.

Jack is in therapy 3 times a week

and Jill is carrying on with the therapist.

maestrowork · Jan 28, 2009

Jack went up to the hill.

Jill went up to the hill.

Jack fell down.

Jill came tumbling after.

God came and smote them both.

THE END

nevada · Jan 28, 2009

hmm i see maestro went for the omnipotent POV .

maestrowork · Jan 28, 2009

It's a Deus ex Machina. Dammit!

urbanespaceman · Jan 28, 2009

I suspect that it might be referring to follow on speech following descriptive text. For example:

"Right," said Fred, "I guess I'm supposed to say something clever here." He ran his hand across his head through sheer force of habit before remembering he'd shaved off all his hair that very morning. "That'll just have to wait until the next bit of speech I get." Nigel glared at him, furrowing his eyebrows like two large caterpillars.

"Of course this particular non-sequitur requires a new paragraph because of that oaf Nigel," said Fred.

nevada · Jan 28, 2009

urbanespaceman said:
I suspect that it might be referring to follow on speech following descriptive text. For example:

"Right," said Fred, "I guess I'm supposed to say something clever here." He ran his hand across his head through sheer force of habit before remembering he'd shaved off all his hair that very morning. "That'll just have to wait until the next bit of speech I get." Nigel glared at him, furrowing his eyebrows like two large caterpillars.

"Of course this particular non-sequitur requires a new paragraph because of that oaf Nigel," said Fred.

Now see, in your example i would have started a new paragraph with Nigel staring at him because it's a separate action from what fred is saying.

maestrowork · Jan 28, 2009

nevada said:
Now see, in your example i would have started a new paragraph with Nigel staring at him because it's a separate action from what fred is saying.

Exactly. When Nigel stares, it shifts.

This may sound arbitrary but it's not. Read the paragraph again and you can see that there's a clear separation at the time Nigel stares at Fred.

urbanespaceman · Jan 28, 2009

However it is clearly related to what Fred has been saying, so using previous examples (eg. the Harry Potter one) would it not make sense to leave the Nigel action in the same paragraph? Or maybe it really doesn't matter that much and I'm over analysing - it wouldn't be the first time

nevada · Jan 28, 2009

ah but in the harry potter sample, none of those characters were acting. they were being observed by harry. now if one of those characters had stood up and done something special then he or she would have gotten a new paragraph. but since all the actual action of that paragraph is harry observing,it's only one paragraph.

I know it sounds really arbitrary but it really isn't. I promise.

Dawnstorm · Jan 28, 2009

As I understand it the "rule" only applies to dialogue. The Harry Potter excerpt isn't dialogue, so the rule doesn't apply.

So what's the difference between action and dialogue? Dialogue has a very conventional structure: turn-taking. When you finish speaking, the person you're speaking with is supposed to react. Noramlly, they'll be speaking, too, but they could do things instead - nonverbal communication (shrugging, nodding etc.), ignoring (continue to do what they did before, as if there was no dialogue at all), reacting to the content ("Pass me the salt!"//He passed me the salt.), etc.

Note that it's strictly speaking not the "people acting" that count, but the "turn". Each "turn" in a dialogue gets its own paragraph. There are plenty of ways a single turn can involve more than one person.

A group are ignoring the speaker (= nobody takes up the next turn):

"Everything clear?"

Joe twiddled his thumb. Carrie's eyelids were drooping. Devon wore the same impenetrable expression he always wore.

"Hello?"

Somebody acting during the turn of a speaker; these actions form part of the narrative background of the foregrounded communication event:

V1: "So, what's for dinner?" she asked? Ben was dicing carrots. She loved carrots.

(= V2: "So, what's for dinner?" she asked, as she watched Ben dicing carrots. She loved carrots.)

In the Fred & Nigel exchange, you need two paragraphs, because Nigel's glare is part of the turn-taking structure of the dialogue. It's a meaningful communicative event, not mere background (as the carrot dicing above, for example).

maestrowork · Jan 28, 2009

urbanespaceman said:
However it is clearly related to what Fred has been saying, so using previous examples (eg. the Harry Potter one) would it not make sense to leave the Nigel action in the same paragraph? Or maybe it really doesn't matter that much and I'm over analysing - it wouldn't be the first time

What Nevada and Dawnstorm said.

When it's narrative and from one character's POV (even though multiple characters are doing things), you don't have to have a different paragraph for different characters. Dialogue is a unique case. Again, it's not to say you can't do that, but there truly is no rule for starting a new paragraph every time a different character does something.

rabid · Jan 28, 2009

These forums are absolutely wonderful - and I'm not saying that just because you've all helped affirm that I'm not completely daft.

Although I do admit to a certain sense of smug elation at being vindicated.

Thanks loads!

nevada · Jan 28, 2009

being right is the best feeling in the world. savour it well, my friend.

urbanespaceman · Jan 29, 2009

maestrowork said:
What Nevada and Dawnstorm said.

When it's narrative and from one character's POV (even though multiple characters are doing things), you don't have to have a different paragraph for different characters. Dialogue is a unique case. Again, it's not to say you can't do that, but there truly is no rule for starting a new paragraph every time a different character does something.

I learn something new every day. Fortunately

James81 · Jan 29, 2009

Paragraphs are designed to do one of a few things:

1. Convey one idea and expound on it.
2. Convey dialogue along with any tags or actions that pertain to that dialogue.
3. Break up the piece into more manageable pieces so that readers aren't intimidated and put off by the writing.

In fact, I was just reading that section in Strunk and White this morning before work, and it mentioned that sometimes even if you have the same ideas in two different paragraphs, it's still ok to break them up instead of having one long paragraph so as not to intimidate the reader, BUT to watch having a bunch of a short paragraphs or it'll come off as "ad-ish."

So, if you follow one of the three guidelines I listed above, you'll be ok 95% of the time.

Kathleen42 · Jan 29, 2009

nevada said:
ah but in the harry potter sample, none of those characters were acting. they were being observed by harry. now if one of those characters had stood up and done something special then he or she would have gotten a new paragraph. but since all the actual action of that paragraph is harry observing,it's only one paragraph.

I know it sounds really arbitrary but it really isn't. I promise.

You'll often be able to tell, when re-reading it. If find that if you include an action in a paragraph where it doesn't belong you'll find yourself drawn to that paragraph time and time again because it just won't seem right.

ideagirl · Jan 29, 2009

maestrowork said:
Where did you hear that every time someone else acts it should be a new paragraph? Boy, that would create a lot of unnecessary paragraphs.

Sometimes it's a choice you have to make--either you have lots of short paragraphs, or you have to keep using people's names instead of using pronouns (as in your example: Mary did X, Jack did Y, Mary said X, Jack responded by doing Y...). In your example you could switch to he and she, but if both characters are the same gender, you have a problem. If I read something like this...

"What the hell is that?" said Jack. "Is that a cat? It looks like Jabba the Hut!" Peter laughed and poured himself another beer. Chuckling, he reached out tentatively and petted the cat, or whatever it was. He offered it a potato chip, but it declined.

...I am going to wonder who "he" is: Peter or Jack? Which he is which? Since the only way to make that clear without breaking to a new paragraph is to keep repeating their names, I would prefer the new paragraph.

Also, in general, because a new speaker gets a new paragraph, I always break to a new paragraph if I'm showing someone doing something and then saying something:
"What the hell is that?" said Jack. "Is that a cat? It looks like Jabba the Hut!"
Peter laughed and poured himself another beer. "Call it Jabba the Cat, if you want," he said.

maestrowork said:
The only reason I would start a new paragraph is when the focus has changed -- sometimes it's very subtle. A paragraph is a logical unit, and when something doesn't belong to that unit, it can be separated out

I agree, but I'd expand on that. The paragraph is also an emotional unit. If you want the reader's thoughts or emotions to notice or linger on something, paragraphing can do that for you. These two things are different:
"I didn't do anything. I wasn't even there," he insisted. "Christ, it's not like I'm the one who shot her." Bob looked at him.
...versus...
"I didn't do anything. I wasn't even there," he insisted. "Christ, it's not like I'm the one who shot her."
Bob looked at him.

The second one makes "it's not like I'm the one who shot her" resonate for a moment, and gives an emotional weight to Bob's look that isn't there in the first example.

Paragraphs are just MAGIC that way.

Dale Emery · Jan 29, 2009

I think of this guideline as: Start a new paragraph when the POV's focus switches from one character to another.

Usually this means that I start a new paragraph when another character speaks or acts. But it's a guideline, not a hard-and-fast rule.

I think in terms of stimulus and response. If several characters are doing things that seem to me to be of-a-piece, that somehow form a single stimulus for the next character to respond to, I'll bunch them into a single paragraph (or sentence).

So I sometimes (rarely) group the actions of multiple characters into a single paragraph. I can't think of a time when I've grouped dialogue from multiple characters into a single paragraph, though I know I've seen it done effectively in other authors' stories.

I like Ray Bradbury's way of thinking about this (from Zen in the Art of Writing): Imagine a movie of the scene. A shot is a paragraph; a paragraph is a shot. Each time the camera angle changes, start a new paragraph. (The book was written when the average shot lasted more than three tenths of a second.)

Dale

Remedial Structure Question re: Paragraphing

rabid

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

nevada

dpaterso

Also in our Discord and IRC chat channels

rabid

Makai_Lightning

Love Addict

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

nevada

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

nevada

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

urbanespaceman

nevada

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

urbanespaceman

nevada

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

rabid

nevada

urbanespaceman

James81

Great Scott Member

Kathleen42

crushing on fictional characters

ideagirl

Dale Emery

is way off topic