Length of Novel

Vanja · Jan 24, 2009

Hi,

I too have finally decided to stop start writing a novel (as opposed to just talking about it) and I have a pretty basic question. How many words is a novel?

And do you think editors and agents prefer shorter novels from first time writers?

Anyway, thanks for your replies.

Best.

Shweta · Jan 24, 2009

Hi Vanja, and :welcome:

The general consensus, I think, is normally about 80,000-100,000 words for a first novel (for adults -- the rules are different for YA or children's lit). It can be a bit longer (up to 120,000 words) in some genres (I think genres like political fantasy or epic fantasy or historical fiction, where the reader expects a great deal of setting detail and possibly a large cast), but longer than 100,000 words will make it a harder sell even in those genres.

Here's a wonderful answer from a couple of years ago:

victoriastrauss said:
I know of three fantasy writers who sold debut novels of around 200,000 words. This is rare, though. All three novels were really extraordinary (and all three writers have become very successful).

Once you're established with a book or two, length is less of an issue. But it's still a concern. Some fantasy/SF publishers have begun to release longer books by established writers in two or three volumes.

I think that if you're querying with a novel longer than 150,000 words--even in the fantasy market, which generally is tolerant of greater lengths--you're going to get rejections based on your word count alone. So if you can trim it down, or split it in two, it's certainly in your interest to do so.

Cutting can be very hard--believe me, I know; I write long, and I've been asked to cut every single one of my books. I always think I can't do it, and I always find a way--and for the most part, I think the books benefit. One thing that's been very helpful to me is to ask my beta readers to suggest places they feel could be cut or tightened--they always see things I don't.

- Victoria

Hope that helps! Now, very general questions like this have normally been answered several times over. I know the size of the forum may be daunting, but the regulars can get a bit cranky about answering the same questions every few weeks, so you might want to start off by looking through some threads

Here's a list of old threads about novel length to start you off. And I found that in the FAQ, Archives, and helpful links thread, which I highly recommend. A lot of the links there are useful to everyone.

Learn writing with Uncle Jim is wonderful but pretty long, so you may want to start off with the Index to that thread.

There's also an entire forum for the basic writing questions that we all have from time to time.

Good luck with your novel, and I hope you have a great time here!

Prawn · Jan 24, 2009

I recently queried a novel that was 116K, and I got an agent, but the first thing he said was to cut 10K. Each novel is individual, but that means he was willing to consider mine at 106K but not 116K. I use word count as a motivator and try to write 1000 words a day. I am a real geek about it and keep a spreadsheet with my running word count. Good luck on your novel. Let yourself write crap, you can always fix it in the edit!

Danthia · Jan 24, 2009

Based on what I've heard/read agents and editors say, the average adult market novel runs between 80,000 and 100,000 words. Some genres run a little shorter (cozy mysteries for example, at around 65,000) and others a little longer (fantasy and historical fiction can go as high as 140,000).

Unpublished authors are advised to stay under 100,000 words, because anything over that tends to scare agents. A larger novel usually means an overwritten novel in their experience. If you want to do a larger novel, make sure every word counts and the story and pacing are good and pulls the reader through the story from page one. Good storytelling makes up for longer word count every time.

I'd suggest researching the genre you want to write in, see what the average size is for that, and write to that size.

Vanja · Jan 24, 2009

@Shweta: Thanks for your wonderful, comprehensive and very informative reply. I do apologize for not searching the forum first, it was irresponsible of me, but I just didn't think of it (flaky, I know). I'll do it next time, I promise

@Prawn: Thanks and congratulations on getting an agent. Good luck with the edit, 10k is a lot of words to cut. And I'll try to remember your words on not worrying about the quality just yet, because what I have right now is not any good.

@Danthia: Thanks. I was going for 60 000 (I have a whole plan of 2000 words a day worked out) but maybe I should aim for a bit longer. Though I'd also heard that shorter was better for new writers. Oh well, first I have to write the thing now don't I?

Kate Thornton · Jan 24, 2009

Vanja, I have read many mystery novels that are tightly written at 60,000 - 80,000 words.

I echo others here: don't worry too much about length at first - just write. Don't worry about how good it is first time around, either - just write.

Then you'll have plenty of time to tighten, edit, revise, rewrite, go nuts and rewrite some more. And love every moment.

Welcome to the boards.

semilargeintestine · Jan 24, 2009

This might be off topic. Let me know if it is, and I'll re-post it somewhere else. Is it significantly harder to sell a novella as opposed to a novel? Looking at my favorite books, a lot of them fall into the novella category.

wandergirl · Jan 24, 2009

Vanja said:
Though I'd also heard that shorter was better for new writers.

true, but shorter meaning right in the sweet spot of 80k - 100k words, as opposed to 130k.

semilargeintestine said:
Is it significantly harder to sell a novella as opposed to a novel? Looking at my favorite books, a lot of them fall into the novella category.

more difficult, definitely -- many agents & publishers will be turned off by a low word count -- but like anything, if it's brilliant (and not just short because you can't fill up standard novel parameters) it should be well-received.

semilargeintestine · Jan 24, 2009

Good to know. Maybe that's why all the novellas I've read were great. The Stranger couldn't have been more than 35,000 words.

Novelist in Paradise · Jan 24, 2009

A side comment: In this economic environment, editors are looking for shorter manuscripts, which are cheaper to print. However, by the time you write and finish your novel, who knows, we could be out of the doldrums.

I suspect from anecdotal evidence and personal experience that for first time novelists it is much harder to write short (say 70000 to 80000 words), that the natural instinct is to write long -- it requires some experience with the form to focus on the story at hand and not go off in tangents, and which if written are hard to recognize as tangents. You love them so much it's hard to realize that they should be pitilessly axed.

But as Kate Thornton already succinctly said, just write, then revise.

Charlie Horse · Jan 24, 2009

Length depends somewhat on genre as well. I don't have the list but I'm sure if you search for it here or anywhere else on the net you'll find it.

What's way way more important than your word count is that you A) write the damn thing, B) Learn as much as you can about how to write, C) throw your heart and soul into the process. Write for the joy of writing. At this point, without having written your book yet, you shouldn't be thinking about pleasing agents. If you write a damn good book then agents will look at it.

Shweta · Jan 24, 2009

Vanja said:
@Shweta: Thanks for your wonderful, comprehensive and very informative reply. I do apologize for not searching the forum first, it was irresponsible of me, but I just didn't think of it (flaky, I know). I'll do it next time, I promise

No problem, 's what I'm here for

And, don't sweat it -- searching the forum doesn't often occur to anyone at first

Speaking of searching, though -- there is a "Search" pop-down in the menu at the top (User CP FAQ Members List Calendar New Posts Search Quick Links Log Out) and a "Search this forum" pop-down in the top right hand corner if you're looking at the forum proper and not a thread. These searches won't take 3-letter words or less, though, so it's often easier to just do a google search and include "http:www.absolutewrite.com" and "Novels" in that search.

@Danthia: Thanks. I was going for 60 000 (I have a whole plan of 2000 words a day worked out) but maybe I should aim for a bit longer. Though I'd also heard that shorter was better for new writers. Oh well, first I have to write the thing now don't I?

It's not a bad idea to aim for a 60K first draft in my opinion, if that gets you writing and an amorphous "novel" blob does not**-- just don't aim very hard. You'll probably find that some scenes take more words than you planned, and that complications present themselves while you write, and that's good. Don't limit yourself if that happens.

And in the next draft you'll see what needs more detail/action/complication as well as what needs trimming.

**This is a subset of the idea that "Anything that gets us writing rather than thinking about maybe writing at some point is a good thing"

Deccydiva · Jan 25, 2009

If you are submitting direct to a publisher, check out their guidelines. I have a partial out to a publisher and the novel must be AT LEAST 100,000 words. They accept unsolicited submissions so they must be expecting new authors too...
www.poolbeg.com

scarletpeaches · Jan 25, 2009

I've honestly never experienced such obsession with word counts in the UK. I can name plenty of first-time authors who published doorstoppers, or established writers who began using a pen name to genre-hop and had a 'first' novel out of over 100k.

Shweta · Jan 25, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
I've honestly never experienced such obsession with word counts in the UK. I can name plenty of first-time authors who published doorstoppers, or established writers who began using a pen name to genre-hop and had a 'first' novel out of over 100k.

There are some in the US too, but very very few.
And publishing in the US is funny/different all around. I don't remember book 1 of any series with stable sales going out of print when I lived in the UK, but that seems to be a given in the US unless the books are bestsellers.

So back to Vanja -- that's another important point. If you end up with a book that isn't marketable in one place it might be marketable in another. So don't worry too much about length for now.

If you end up with 300,000+ words, it might be time to worry

Cassiopeia · Jan 25, 2009

Shweta said:
There are some in the US too, but very very few.
And publishing in the US is funny/different all around. I don't remember book 1 of any series with stable sales going out of print when I lived in the UK, but that seems to be a given in the US unless the books are bestsellers.

So back to Vanja -- that's another important point. If you end up with a book that isn't marketable in one place it might be marketable in another. So don't worry too much about length for now.

If you end up with 300,000+ words, it might be time to worry

Or time to divide it up into three individual books that can stand on their own or be a sequel.

Shweta · Jan 25, 2009

Cassiopeia said:
Or time to divide it up into three individual books that can stand on their own or be a sequel.

That too.
Though really, wouldn't the worry come first?

Or is it only me who tends towards: Step 1: discover problem. Step 2: panic. Step 3: fix. ?

Cassiopeia · Jan 25, 2009

*giggles* I try not to even think of the word, worry. It stresses me out.

Danthia · Jan 25, 2009

Vanja said:
Thanks. I was going for 60 000 (I have a whole plan of 2000 words a day worked out) but maybe I should aim for a bit longer. Though I'd also heard that shorter was better for new writers. Oh well, first I have to write the thing now don't I?

Aim for 60K to start if that's what you've planned

Once you have the story down, you'll be in a better position to know where you need to tweak and what needs fleshing out (or cutting back). General guidelines are just that: general. Don't feel that you HAVE to write to a certain length. Just make the story the best one you can write.

Prawn · Jan 25, 2009

Let me be a devil's advocate: I say write more, 90 or 100K. The last half will be written by someone who has already written 50K words, so it will be better. Then, with a more experienced eye, you can go back and cut out the rough parts and smooth the rest over.

scarletpeaches · Jan 25, 2009

Much as I hate to agree with Prawn, I agree with Prawn.

But really - I don't think you can plan for an exact length. The story's as long as it needs to be.

Alan Yee · Jan 25, 2009

I know I can't plan out lengths. I started with what I thought was going to be a short story, which then became a novelette, then a novella, and finally a novel. It's currently about 110k and probably about 90 percent done (haven't been able to work on it much lately *sigh*). The first half is definitely going to need a lot more revising and cutting, but I'll worry about that after I finish the second half.

psell · Feb 5, 2009

more difficult, definitely -- many agents & publishers will be turned off by a low word count -- but like anything, if it's brilliant (and not just short because you can't fill up standard novel parameters) it should be well-received.

I'm new here so please go easy. However, this is information is exactly what I've been searching for, the novella/novelette length work.

Can't say my work is brilliant. However, the stories I've written so far fall into this size range and they've turned out as I wanted. Not really interested in creating a novel at this time.

Yet, there doesn't appear to be much interest in 9k-15k word count works from an unknown.

Any advice on how/who to approach regarding publishing this type of work would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Perry

Shweta · Feb 5, 2009

Perry!

The bad news is, there is indeed very little market for that length from an unknown.

The good news is twofold.

1) There is some market for it, depending on what you write -- what do you write?

2) It is possible to learn to write shorter and longer. And learning to write shorter -- just, compressing a story into less length -- can improve the story no end and can also make one more aware of word usage in overall good ways.

Hillgate · Feb 6, 2009

I like the 80,000 word level after good editing, both for writing and reading. However, I've read a number of 800+ page books and the length didn't put me off, although I know that a lot of readers might be put off by something shaped like a doorstopper.

Anything over 120,000 words is possibly a bit long, epecially when you consider that if your agent reads your full in twelve point double spaced then it's going to pop out at 500 pages + on full size paper...it's a lot more comfortable reading something with a 3 in front of it. I haven't tried my agent with anything longer than about 380 - yet. Maybe if I push her up gradually...

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