New here, and my experience with PA(no issues here, don't shoot me)

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Hi all,

I am new to the boards here. And I will tell you some might instantly hate me, some might like me. I really am a good person, and writing is my life. Merri Hiatt knows me from the PA boards even though she was removed from them. I am sure she has vocalized her opinion loud and clear here :)

I will say this in the beginning. I was not some disillusioned writer who signed with PA because it was easy route or because I had dreams of selling millions. I shopped my YA science fiction novel around to over 75 agents and 20 publishers. I ended up with five partial requests and 2 full requests. In the end none got accepted, but I did receive great feedback. So, they did enjoy what they read. Most stated, the reason for rejection was due to a full client list or their publication schedule was full through 2010.

I wrote my YA sci-fi novel Obscure Origins, which is the first book of four in the Guardian Chronicles, to share with whomever wanted to read it. I have no sky high expectations. If I reached 600 readers I would be happy. My book was officially released this week, and will gradually show up on other retailers sites for the next six weeks.

I will say this as well, Obscure was professionally copy edited and proofed by an amazing editor who has done over 150 novels. The book is probably one of the most flawless which has come from PA. Believe me, I have read plenty of them. I am not blind. Some of the books are craptastic :P

Promotion is the key to any success. There is only so much an author can do, I realize that. And with any other traditional publisher, their publicity department would take care of a lot of that. I know this industry, studied inside and out. I may be only 24, but I have learned a lot in my 2 years of querying different projects. Yet I still have managed to set up a 12 city book tour for this summer by myself, as well as planning on being an exhibitor at 3 book fairs in the fall.

Anyway, I am rambling now. Sorry. i just wanted to say my experience with PA has yet to turn ugly. It has been completely pleasant. And I really have met quite a few great writers among the many who wish they could write (look up Year of the Zebracorn--WOW is all I can say )

I do not expect huge fame, balloons, or whatever. But I still consider it a small stepping stone. I am planning on finishing the series with PA, unless another option arises. But I do have two other manuscripts near completion which I do plan to shop around traditionally once again this year.

I am a determined person and will get that big break one day. Even if I have to write 20 novels to get there. Hopefully, before I am 35.

Please do not email me letters full of links and information, I have read it all. Go to my site, be the judge, if you think my book sounds like literary puke, don't read it. Simple. As I said, I am a love me or hate me person :D

I do think you will find I can hold stimulating discussions though, and do look forward to making some friends here and discussing projects.

Thanks for your time. Please no hate. This is just offering my take on the situation. Thanks. Look forward to talking to some of you.
-Jason
Author of Obscure Origins
www.jasonrobertmacumber.webs.com

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi, Jason. Good to meet you.

I'm a science fiction author too; come visit up on the novels board (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2). We talk a lot about writing and the nuts-and-bolts of publishing.

[Haggis]

Best of luck with your book, Jason.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Thanks :) Whatever happens will happen. No expectations, no disappointments. This is just the first hop for me.

[Gillhoughly]

:welcome: Jason! :partyguy:

With all that going for you, you don't need PA. You've done all the right moves, otherwise.

PA is not doing you any favor by slapping a 19.95 price on a trade paperback.

Lulu would have worked far better, providing you with a reasonably priced book and none of the bad reputation.

Next time you have something new to submit, try The Knight Agency (http://www.knightagency.net/). They've got a good track record for YA sales!

[narnia]

Welcome Jason!

Best of luck with your novel. I follow the PA threads because I have two friends who were burnt by them, and I sincerely hope that your experience will turn out better.

Please do check out the rest of AW. I have learned so much since I found this place and will certainly credit many wonderful folks here when (I have high hopes :)) my first novel is published.

I write paranormal suspense (a fancy way of saying "ghost stories"). Look forward to seeing you around here and there.

:Sun:

[tlblack]

Hi Jason and welcome to AW. There's plenty to get into around here, and I'm sure you've noticed it's a big place. Enjoy!

[inkkognito]

Welcome, Jason! You may have come to AW for the PA thread, but please stick around for the many other wonderful discussions. I tend to hang out mostly on the Freelance and Non-Fiction forums myself, but you'll find a place for just about every interest and genre. Judging by all the work and research you've done so far, you've got a bright future in writing ahead of you regardless of how it goes with PA. Please stick around and you'll learn a lot here. I know I do : )

Oh, and I'm a fellow Floridian...central for me.

[merrihiatt]

Welcome, Jason! :welcome:

The AW site is big and there's a ton of great information and wonderful people here. I hope you'll stick around and check things out. None of your posts will vanish into thin air and you'll be encouraged to share your opinion and experiences.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Thank you everyone for the kind welcome! I look forward to getting to know all of you!

[Queen of Swords]

Hi Jason, and welcome to the board! I hope your book does very well.

[James D. Macdonald]

Aside from six hundred sales of book one, and finishing the series with PA, what are your goals and what are the objective criteria for knowing you've achieved them?

[Cyia]

Heya Jason! Welcome! This is a good place for any writer -- no matter who they're published with. Got questions? Chances are someone here can answer them or at least point you to someone who can.

[Christine N.]

One question, Jason, and I'm asking honestly. On your tour, are these bookstores or other venues? Do you have to bring the books, or are the stores ordering them? If you're the one responsible for the books, that's actually a good thing with PA. They have a track record of not shipping books to stores in time for author signings.

You're not the first author to take a big tour pretty much on their own. JA Konrath does it with pretty much each book. I forget which publisher he's with, but he's with a major one. You might want to check out his site, he gives lots of great promotional advice.

You seem like you have a handle on it, and good luck. There are a few roadblocks PA has put in your way, and if you can get around them, more power to ya.

[Queen of Swords]

Go to my site, be the judge

By the way, Jason, I did go to your website, where there is a link to your blog, which is described as "A daily chronicle of Jason's writing routine and random thoughts".

However, the blog was started in November and has only been updated seven times. A blog is a great book-promotional tool if done well, so you might want to post on it a bit more - that's also a chance for readers to connect with you as a person.

[James D. Macdonald]

Heck, we even have a blogging board (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=90).

[circlexranch]

Hi Jason, excellent to see you here.

Yes, you have an excellent story premise, nicely done cover art and professionally edited. I agree with Gilloughly [a very successful professional novelist of 18+ years] that you can do better than PA.

With your saavy and stick-to-it-to-ed-ness, you could find an agent or create your own imprint and not give PA 9.00 - 10.00 per book for them doing nothing. Because that's what they've done for you . . . nothing.

My number one problem with PA is pricing. They leave the writer no room to work with to be competitive and pay for promotion.

You are welcome, welcome, welcome here and we hope you stay around and check out this thread as well as all the others in AW. Beware, we are addictive . . .

[circlexranch]

Jason:

This post is a lesson I did in 'book pricing math' in another thread. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3112886&highlight=createspace#post3112886)

It illustrates my main problem with PA. My family company has a series of trademarked characters for our toy/action figure product line and I am researching creating an imprint for short novels and short story collections based on this line. Trust me, PA does not figure into the equation.

Even some of the disgruntled former PA folks who have moved on insist that PA occupies a niche because they 'don't charge' for publishing. That is not true. There are honest options for getting your work out there.

I hope your book is the one that breaks out of the pack. However, I do follow your site and your blog (I am on your list of followers) and know you are working on book two of the series. Look around at ALL of your options before you push the PA button again, please.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Hi all,

I am new to the boards here. And I will tell you some might instantly hate me, some might like me. I really am a good person, and writing is my life. Merri Hiatt knows me from the PA boards even though she was removed from them. I am sure she has vocalized her opinion loud and clear here :)

No one here hates you for going with PA.

I will say this in the beginning. I was not some disillusioned writer who signed with PA because it was easy route or because I had dreams of selling millions. I'm curious what you saw in their business model that you found preferable to that of the other vanity presses or printers?

If I reached 600 readers I would be happy. My book was officially released this week, and will gradually show up on other retailers sites for the next six weeks. Unfortunately, the only way you're going to reach 600 readers is if you buy the books yourself to sell. That's quite a cash outlay. That's not a reflection on you, your ability to promote, or your book; it's simply that PA doesn't want to sell books to anyone but you, and they put enough obstacles in your way to make sure it doesn't happen. You can promote your book until you have people salivating for it; until they're willing to jump through quite a few more hoops than most customers to buy it. And they'll still find it difficult to buy the book if you haven't bought it first.

Promotion is the key to any success. There is only so much an author can do, I realize that. And with any other traditional publisher, their publicity department would take care of a lot of that. I know this industry, studied inside and out. I may be only 24, but I have learned a lot in my 2 years of querying different projects. Yet I still have managed to set up a 12 city book tour for this summer by myself, as well as planning on being an exhibitionist at 3 book fairs in the fall.Congratulations. You obviously have a lot of drive and ambition. I'll wish you the best of luck but sadly, it's not going to matter. Like I said, PA sets you up to fail. They actually put active effort into it.

I do not expect huge fame, balloons, or whatever. But I still consider it a small stepping stone. I am planning on finishing the series with PA, unless another option arises. But I do have two other manuscripts near completion which I do plan to shop around traditionally once again this year. If you managed to get partial and full requests, you're close. Really. I had 5 partials and 2 fulls myself, when my agent made an offer. I'd queried 70 agents with that book.

Please, before you give PA any more of your books, wait. Wait until you reach those 600 readers. Good books are worth more than a dollar, and I think you should give your future titles a chance to succeed.

[Queen of Swords]

No one here hates you for going with PA.

I'd like to add my voice to this.

I don't know why anyone would believe that we'd "instantly hate [them]" for choosing to publish with PA. Would you instantly hate someone for choosing to sign up with, say, Dorothy Deering (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/cases.html)? Believe me, you'd have to do a lot more than sign up with PA to make that much of a blip on my emotional radar. :)

I think one reason many PA authors believe we hate them is because the PAMB encourages them to believe there are no legitimate criticisms of PA (for instance, even if books are unedited or sell poorly, that's the writers' fault). So when they come across people criticizing PA, it becomes a personal, emotional thing - i.e. hate - rather than a genuine problem. And since PA is a family, a single tightly-knit unit, that means we must hate all the family members as well.

Just my take on it, though.

[circlexranch]

PA is not doing you any favor by slapping a 19.95 price on a trade paperback.

Actually, they are slapping $27.95 on it with a 'special' PA price of $21.95.

Gillhoughly and Uncle James, a question for the two of you. If you or someone else wanted to do a comic series or graphic novel of one of your books, what would have been your agent and/or publisher's reactions?

[James D. Macdonald]

Gillhoughly and Uncle James, a question for the two of you. If you or someone else wanted to do a comic series or graphic novel of one of your books, what would have been your agent and/or publisher's reactions?

1. "How much are you offering?"
2. "Do you need a copy of the book?"

As one of the characters in one of my earlier novels (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/potshead.htm) says, "It's all for sale."

In general, they want adaptations in comics, on TV, in movies, on lunchboxes, on cupcake wrappers....

Where did you think all that Harry Potter stuff came from (the action figures and the candies and the broomsticks and the trading cards, and the.... you get the idea). Do you think Scholastic said, when someone wanted to make a Harry Potter audiobook, "No, no, no!

[tlblack]

I'd like to add my voice to this.

I don't know why anyone would believe that we'd "instantly hate [them]" for choosing to publish with PA. Would you instantly hate someone for choosing to sign up with, say, Dorothy Deering (http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/cases.html)? Believe me, you'd have to do a lot more than sign up with PA to make that much of a blip on my emotional radar. :)

I think one reason many PA authors believe we hate them is because the PAMB encourages them to believe there are no legitimate criticisms of PA (for instance, even if books are unedited or sell poorly, that's the writers' fault). So when they come across people criticizing PA, it becomes a personal, emotional thing - i.e. hate - rather than a genuine problem. And since PA is a family, a single tightly-knit unit, that means we must hate all the family members as well.

Just my take on it, though.

Telling someone who just got printed with PA who thinks they're not in print with a vanity press, although they are, and that there are better options out there, is sort of along the same lines as telling a new Mom that her baby would have been better looking with a different father. It's an emotional kick in the pants, and the first option the brain chooses is to go on the defensive.

I wish all PA authors luck. Being one of those who finally got out of their contract, I can tell them they will need every stroke of luck they can squeeze out of the next seven years. I don't hate anyone.

[Gillhoughly]

Actually, they are slapping $27.95 on it with a 'special' PA price of $21.95.

Ye gods! Are they out of their effing minds?????

Oh, wait, this is PA. Of course they are.

They could be crazy like a fox, though. The buyer sees 27.95 and freaks, then the 21.95 price doesn't look all that outrageous...

Until you compare it with a trade in the bookstore that's only 12.95.


Gillhoughly and Uncle James, a question for the two of you. If you or someone else wanted to do a comic series or graphic novel of one of your books, what would have been your agent and/or publisher's reactions?How much is being offered?
Would you consider a script from the author, and how much would you pay?

As it happens a comic company did just that and one of my short stories is on their list. I wrote the script--my first and I loved it!--but they're really REALLY slow.

The comic was to have been out last summer. Still waiting. At least their check cleared!

My publisher's reaction doesn't matter since my agent reserved those rights, along with others on the contract.

My agent is always open to offers on my works.

[Arkie]

Well, they didn't do you any favors by putting a retail price of $27.95 on your book. I think the reason they put the price so high is they don't expect to sell many units and they want to realize the maximum for each.

When I started though their program four years past, the principals of the company were openly critical of science fiction writers, but they seem to have gotten over it, evolving into taking anything they could get to make a buck off the writer.

A word of caution: When you start your tour make sure you have books in hand. Do not count on PA delivering on a shipping schedule to a particular store, or you'll end up with egg on your face and no books to sell, and you can't run out in town to a local bookstore to find copies of your book. There won't be any. And of course their modus operandi is for the author to order his own book.

I'd like to be more encouraging, but I have been through the process; the ordering, the book signings, etc. And in the current economic climate, when the major bookstores are offering huge discounts, I'm afraid you're not going to move many units when going up against NY Times best selling authors at half the $27.95 price.

[Cyia]

That pricetag thing bugs me. (I know, stating the obvious) When I bought my copy of Twilight in paperback, it was $11 - and that's for something like 500 pages. When Breaking Dawn came out, it was $17 in hardback -- and that's a book with a practically guaranteed audience.

That's $10 cheaper per hardback best seller than paperback by unknown compared to PA's prices.

[Jersey Chick]

Hi Jason and :welcome:! As others have said, take a look around and you'll see there is a LOT more to the Cooler than just the PA threads. It's a great place, no matter what your genre, or where you are in your writing!

I hope you'll stick around! :D

[The Lady]

I did check out Year of the Zebracorn like you recommended. It's 75 pages long and costs 16.99. Eeek!


Anyway, best of luck with your book and the rest of the series.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Hey all,

You guys are awesome. I have never felt more welcomed anywhere. Believe me, I take all of your advice and criticisms in good faith and do plan on reflecting on them. The best thing I can do right now is see through the promotion of this book and then decide what to do when I have finished the sequel.

Question. When the sequel is done, aren't I pretty much stuck with using the same imprint, or do some smaller publishers pick up sequels and do new editions of the first? I need to kind of figure out where I stand at this point. What I won't budge on is giving up on my series. I have sworn to myself my character's story will be finished. I am on book 2, with 2 more to go. Now if self-publishing is my only option that is also a route I may consider. As I said before, I am waiting to see how things pan out with Obscure. I have yet to encounter hell with PA, so I we shall see what happens when that time comes.

What matters is we are all writers and here to support one another in our endeavors. I am really excited about my other two projects. Updating my site on those soon.

Once again, thanks everyone for your kind comments. I look forward to posting here with you as I continue this journey.

[Jersey Chick]

Hey all,

You guys are awesome. I have never felt more welcomed anywhere. Believe me, I take all of your advice and criticisms in good faith and do plan on reflecting on them. The best thing I can do right now is see through the promotion of this book and then decide what to do when I have finished the sequel. Aw shucks...

Ahem... seriously - you will find some great advice here - really.


Question. When the sequel is done, aren't I pretty much stuck with using the same imprint, or do some smaller publishers pick up sequels and do new editions of the first? This will depend on your contract - if there's a right of first refusal clause, and if there is anything about using the same characters, etc - you might not be able to do anything with them. (I think - I'm not a lawyer and there are people here who will know this a LOT better than me). If not, the second book is yours to shop around, but you need to remember that unless PA lets you out of your contract (and I don't know if you have tried or plan to try to get those rights reverted back) they own the first rights for the next 7 years. No other publisher can or will touch that book for at least 7 years. Whether or not a publisher will issue a reprint depends on the publisher.

I need to kind of figure out where I stand at this point. What I won't budge on is giving up on my series. I have sworn to myself my character's story will be finished. I am on book 2, with 2 more to go. Now if self-publishing is my only option that is also a route I may consider. As I said before, I am waiting to see how things pan out with Obscure. I have yet to encounter hell with PA, so I we shall see what happens when that time comes. I hope, for your sake, it doesn't happen, but PA has a way of turning on you. I don't know about selling a series, so maybe someone who DOES know something about it can and will answer. I'm also not familiar with the SF/F genre, which doesn't help a lot, either. :D

What matters is we are all writers and here to support one another in our endeavors. I am really excited about my other two projects. Updating my site on those soon. That's true, but you have to remember support isn't necessarily cheerleading, either. This is a great group of people, but you might not always like what they have to say (but you can pretty much bank of it being said out of true wanting to help and not malice - and I really hope that made sense! :D)

Once again, thanks everyone for your kind comments. I look forward to posting here with you as I continue this journey.

And we hope you stick around. We're a nice a bunch - for the most part. ;)

[Queen of Swords]

Question. When the sequel is done, aren't I pretty much stuck with using the same imprint, or do some smaller publishers pick up sequels and do new editions of the first?

It's best to check your contract to see if PA has any rights to the sequels, but most if not all publishers are unlikely to accept the sequels if PA has a lock on the first book in the series.

You still have the option of publishing through Lulu or another self-publishing service, though. The advantage of this is that the sequels will be more competitively priced.

[Jersey Chick]

I KNEW someone who knew better would come along ;)

[DaveKuzminski]

You may find that PA might be unwilling to publish a sequel unless the first volume sells enough copies. One author wrote me in December 2008 that PA rejected a manuscript of his. As an experiment, he then ordered $100 worth of his already published PA book and was told to resubmit the manuscript PA had just rejected.

[Gillhoughly]

Question. When the sequel is done, aren't I pretty much stuck with using the same imprint, or do some smaller publishers pick up sequels and do new editions of the first?

No, you are not stuck with PA. You do not have to send any more books to PA. You don't have to be their customer for future titles if you choose to not sign any more of their contracts. (Please read the thread here on PA contracts. It's an eye-popper.)

A small publisher might help, but it's a newbie mistake to think small publishers are easier to break into than the big ones.

Small houses run on a thinner margin, so they have to be VERY selective of their list, and are often much more picky than a larger house. They will be just as reluctant as a big house to take on what is essentially a "reprint."

FWTW--and I've been selling since '88--I think your best course to finish this series out is to take the other books to Lulu and work to get out of your PA contract for the first. Once it's free you can put it up on Lulu with the others as they are completed.

If you're planning to buy 600 copies, PA might drag their heels. In Vegas terms you are a whale and they want your money. But if you are firm about not buying more copies, you might be able to get your rights back sooner than 7 years.


Just so you know, pro pub houses keep a book in print for only as long as it is profitable, not for a set period of time. Some of my books have been in print for getting on twenty years now. Others went out of print in one year and the rights reverted to me.

For Lulu: You've done your own editing/copyediting, so it's a matter of picking cover art (iStock.com) and uploading a file to their website. I got the impression you were underwhelmed by PA's cover choice.

This costs you NOTHING. Your book will be up on the web in both POD and e-format and would cost a fraction of what PA wants for it. You can set your own price, which is the main thing working against you at PA (aside from savvy book store managers not wanting to deal with you).

A lower priced book means more sales. But as with PA, this is considered self-publishing, and does not count as a professional sale on your resume.

But it is still miles better than PA.

PA is a tar pit. Books go in and never come out.

Finish your series and write a new and better one and start shopping it. I've already given the name of an excellent agency that sells YA, mysteries, urban fantasy, etc.

What I won't budge on is giving up on my series. I have sworn to myself my character's story will be finished. I am on book 2, with 2 more to go. Now if self-publishing is my only option that is also a route I may consider.If you've not signed a contract for book two with PA, then don't do so.

PA will not care if you take that title to Lulu. They only want to make sure you buy plenty of copies of the first book. To them you are just another cypher in the account books.

Try to think of PA as being a lap dancer. So long as you fling money at them, you are going to be their sexiest, best writer. Tell them you won't shell out any more cash and they will move on to the next dude, assuring him HE is the sexy one.

Other writers here have gotten out of their contracts. They had to be firm in stating they would not buy or promote their book. PA usually wants 300.00 from them, as that's the minimum they expect to make from their customers.

But if you are persistent you can get out of your contract and not pay them a dime.



There is NO HURRY to get published. You're only 24. I didn't sell my first novel until my mid-30s. Age doesn't matter in this industry. Good writing does.

You can make an announcement on your blog that you're making changes. That's all it takes. Do what you can to cut free of PA.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

I got the impression you were underwhelmed by PA's cover choice.


Oh no! That cover design was something I had created with a local artist! I wanted complete control over that. And I love it.

As for no rush. I know that. But I believe I have what it takes to make in this industry now. I just need the right door. Hopefully, this next manuscript I shop around will enter the right one.

[James D. Macdonald]

I disagree about taking the series to Lulu. We're still talking about no distribution, no marketing, and high prices, and, as long as the first volume is with PA, a series opener that's almost impossible to obtain.

In general, self-publication should be a last choice, particularly for genre fiction.

Self-publication works best for:

a) Niche fiction
b) Specialized non-fiction
c) Poetry

By the sound of it this series doesn't fall into any of those categories.

Perhaps the rest of this sub-discussion should take place on a different board, because we're moving away from PA now.

[Jersey Chick]

I'm curious, Jason, how standalone are the rest of the books in the series? If you don't absolutely need to read the first one, (or really, any of them) to read the remaining ones and have them make sense, I'd exhaust any and all other publishers before going to self-publishing.

[Gillhoughly]

I disagree about taking the series to Lulu.

No argument from me on that, Uncle Jim. I was trying to answer in the context of this particular problem and the limits placed by the writer on his own work.

Lulu isn't the perfect answer, but better than PA. At least he's not hogtied by a PA contract.

My first choice is always going to be to recommend a writer sell to a commercial publisher.

Maybe he gave up too soon and that 76th agent would have taken him on. We'll never know.

I'd have been fine with waiting until 2010 to get my book on an editor's desk. By publishing standards, that's the fast track! During the wait I'd be writing.

JasonRobert--It took two years to get my first book sold. (Lots of rewriting!) Then it was 6 months for the contract to arrive and another 18 months for the book to get into the stores. By then I'd written 3-4 more in the series. I stuck it out because I knew it was a slow process. It still is.

He's adamant on finishing this series, but the limits of PA has limited his choices.

If he can get out of his contract and try shopping it again that would be great.

This can be a cautionary tale to PA lurkers or to those thinking of going to PA.

PA IS NOT YOUR FRIEND AND NEVER WILL BE.

If your first book keeps collecting rejections, write another one.

As I've said before, just because you sink a well doesn't mean it's going to come up oil.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jason, I've been wondering something.

You said over on the PAMB that you'd researched publishing, that you were aware of the downside of PA, and that you decided to go with them having read the arguments.

Could you tell me what you think the downside of PA is, what the upside is, and why the arguments against publishing with PA were unconvincing?

[ssnowe]

Jason, I've been wondering something.

You said over on the PAMB that you'd researched publishing, that you were aware of the downside of PA, and that you decided to go with them having read the arguments.

Could you tell me what you think the downside of PA is, what the upside is, and why the arguments against publishing with PA were unconvincing?

I was curious about this as well.

Oh, and welcome! :)

[allenparker]

I disagree about taking the series to Lulu. We're still talking about no distribution, no marketing, and high prices, and, as long as the first volume is with PA, a series opener that's almost impossible to obtain.

In general, self-publication should be a last choice, particularly for genre fiction.

Self-publication works best for:

a) Niche fiction
b) Specialized non-fiction
c) Poetry



My observation is that if the book does well under PA standards, it will do well being self published.

Now, by doing well, I am not talking thousands of sales, but if you get 600 or so sales out of PA, you can do better than that with self publishing.

Books that generally do better than others at PA are:

Niche books
Non-fic with a platform
genre with a specific audience easily reached by the author.

I think Jim would agree that with those categories, the lower price of self pub and the better reputation will help sell more books.

And. it is not unheard of for a series to be picked up by a small publisher. Diana Hignutt had the second in her series published by Behler. It does happen.

Write a great book. Make the book so it can stand on its own, even if the theme and storyline are part of the whole series. Send it out. Make it so good PA begs for a second chance. Sell it to a commercial publisher. Laugh all the way to the bank. :hooray:

[xXFireSpiritXx]

DELETE

[CaoPaux]

3.) Most of the negativity stemmed back from 2005.Could you shed some light on why so many PA authors think this? Folks have complained about PA since its (Am)ericaHouse days, and complaints continue to this day, so what's with the perception they are old and/or stagnant?

[inkkognito]

This is something I have had on the back burner for awhile and in a genre which has continued flourish over the last ten years (urban fantasy). I believe I will get the chance one day and will continue to pursue via the traditional route.
Jason, are you by any chance a member of the Florida Writers Association? If not, you might want to consider joining and attending one of their conferences. I missed last year's, but the year before I think one of the speakers was an urban fantasy writer...either that or agent (not 100 percent sure as I'm non-fiction so I didn't attend his sessions). You can make some good contacts there.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Why did I feel they were stagnant? Well I fully believed that PA must have made strides to improve. Well, funny--they haven't. Maybe I just desperately wanting to get my book out there for people to read. At this point, I am not even sure. What I do know is this, I am moving on and forward. New book, new round of queries, and this time waiting until all efforts and channels have been exhausted.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

I was planning on joining the Florida Writer's Association. Thanks for the information, I will look into it :)

[JulieB]

I think this (http://www.amazon.com/Atlanta-Nights-Travis-Tea/dp/1411622987/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233431003&sr=8-1) is why some people say the negativity dates to 2005.

[Queen of Swords]

Why did I feel they were stagnant? Well I fully believed that PA must have made strides to improve. Well, funny--they haven't.

They don't need to, though.

The book prices have gone up, authors aren't getting two free copies any longer, there's not even an attempt at editing, and there are more and more solicitations for money. Yet people continue to sign up. So there's no pressure on PA to improve.

What I do know is this, I am moving on and forward. New book, new round of queries, and this time waiting until all efforts and channels have been exhausted.

Sounds like a good plan.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

DELETE

[tlblack]

Good for you Jason. One thing to remember when you do start sending out your queries: If the agent can't get interested in your query letter, they won't ask for your ms. That is one of my particular downfalls - trying to make 110k words into a one paragraph description. Best of luck to you in your writing career. It sounds like you know what you want, you just have to have patience and persistence.

[Queen of Swords]

Hopefully I am not tainted by having a book published by PA. I know for sure I will not mention it in any query letters.

A lot of people have lost a first book to PA or other vanity presses but have gone on from there to be commercially published. No need to mention it in query letters, especially if you have an interesting new book to submit.

You'll be fine. Experience is a great teacher.

[e.dashwood]

New book, new round of queries, and this time waiting until all efforts and channels have been exhausted.

Yes. It took only four score queries before I found an agent, and one score editorial submissions before my book found a home at a major publishing house. My first book is still in the proverbial drawer, but this second book will soon be at a bookstore near you.

My agent (now of four years), who has been around since Gutenberg, says that despite beliefs to the contrary, "No good book goes unpublished."

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Thanks so much! You all are very encouraging. Even if I have to write five or ten more books I will keep pursuing.

[M.R.J. Le Blanc]

You've got a good attitude Jason, and persistence. I hope other PA authors who realize going with PA was a bad move see you and realize they can move on from it too. Nothing's worse than seeing a writer give up his/her craft because of someone like PA.

[LeslieB]

I'm very glad you posted. Every so often someone shows up and asks why AW bothers to keep banging the drum against PA. They'll say something like, "You've said your piece, you've laid out the facts, so why keep hammering the same facts over and over? Move on already." And the reason is for the people who assume that unless there are complaints from last week, everything is fine now.

I'm so glad to hear that you are working on a new book. I wish you every success.

[Gillhoughly]

3.) Most of the negativity stemmed back from 2005.

Yes, as cited in JulieB's post--that's when the big sting operation of Atlanta Nights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Nights) went down, proving that PA will give anything the chance it deserves (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/120377/book_review_the_crack_of_death_by_sharla.html) if there is a possibility of selling the book to its own writer.

Since newbies seem to think that a 2005 sting is too old a warning to pay attention to, perhaps it is time to write another sting novel?

How about a kid's book? Let's get twenty writers to do a page each and sub it.

Literacy, grammar, and spelling are not required. Plot? Why bother?

Soon as PA accepts it, we send the whole saga, complete with paperwork, to Publisher's Weekly and a number of major newspapers then sit back and scarf popcorn.

[merrihiatt]

Jason,

There's a great query and synopsis section here on Absolute Write. Good information and folks are willing to read and respond with suggestions.

I'm so very glad you haven't given up on your writing and that you have a project that is putting fire in your belly.

Hopefully, in seven years, PA will just be a distant memory and you'll have already received a contract with a fabulous publisher. I wish you all the best.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

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[RobJ]

If you ask one of the mods, they might close the thread for you.

Cheers,
Rob