Characters and obsessive love

You say 'despite the adult's cruelty', then in the same paragraph 'He's not abusive at all.'... I'm confused. Cruelty is abuse, yes? Or is he just cruel but not physically and/or sexually abusive? And you're correct - you're talking two different kinds of love here.

BlueLucario said:

I know some don't really approve of two characters loving each other for no reason.

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No, people don't approve of Stockholm Syndrome (Google it) being portrayed as love.

Bingo!

ICE (may I call you that for short?) - you don't know how long it's been bugging me that I couldn't quite put my finger on why Edward/Bella bugged me. It wasn't that Bella acted or felt the way she did; I mean, that bugged me but I never saw why people accused Meyer of being anti-feminist. She wasn't saying all women should behave like Bella, just that Bella behaved like Bella.

But Stockholm Syndrome just made the penny drop. That's why I object to the books; they portray this as love, you're exactly right.

Romeo and Juliet weren't in love. That was obsession. Especially in the case of fickle little Romeo, who'd only just been dumped by Rosaline (sp?)

Cinderella? Seems like she was dazzled by shiny things.

Yeah, I'm cynical. I can also be romantic. As long as love is love, and not co-dependency, obsession, Stockholm Syndrome or possession.

Reasons to fall in love? How about the person's funny, intelligent, caring, has integrity, would look after you if you were ill even though you didn't need to be looked after, was your best friend, loyal, good-looking and in it for the long haul? All at once?

Or am I too demanding?

in twilight I thinks reasons are given for the attraction

Yes. Bella smells nice and Edward is Godlike.

Attraction? Possibly. Love? Definitely not.

Unless you can muse in a crowd all day
On the absent face that fixed you;
Unless you can love, as the angels may,
With the breadth of heaven betwixt you;
Unless you can dream that his faith is fast,
Through behoving and unbehoving;
Unless you can die when the dream is past -
Oh, never call it loving!

Thank you, EBB, but seems a bit...cloying to me.

That's me all over. Pragmatic...and single.

scarletpeaches said:

Bingo!

ICE (may I call you that for short?)

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In Case of Emergency? lol

Irony~

There's seeing the person for the first time and one is smitten.

There is a build up of a relationship kowing the good and the bad and being in love.

There is staying together as a crutch for each other--one person needs to have an audience, the other needs someone to look up to.

Staying with someone despite their mental, emotional, physical antipathy and abuse is a habit, a self-slavery when the one who is the victim can see no way out, no other option, who fears being alone, who would beleive contrary to all good sense and overt acts that this is right and true.

Reasons? No.

Chemistry? Yes.

My MC could be accused off obsession, because she achieves a sort of suicidal mindset due to the death of her boyfriend of 5 years. (Oh god, New Moon. throw up.) But I'm trying to show how in love they really were and for what reasons past the dead bf's hotness. It's something I'll have to play around with and make realistic. To actually respond to your question - Yes, I found the case in Twilight annoying (generally didn't enjoy Meyer's style), No, that's doesn't mean it can't be written well. Obsession can be such an exciting plot device, especially where abuse or high stakes are involved. As long as you develop the MC's reasons, I don't think I would be annoyed by her.

People can love people who are cruel without suffering from Stockholm Syndrome (can't speak for Bella, I haven't read Twilight). They don't love the cruel bits, they love all those moments when the person they love is kind and their friend. It's absolutely maddening to watch from the outside, but it is still love. They love the best of the person, the part the rest of us can't see because the bad bits take up all our vision. This is why women stay with men who beat them - they keep hoping for more of that man they love to emerge, even when their bones know better, the heart still hopes.

I think this is a problem in fiction when the author dwells on the love and denies/downplays the cruelty. It's hard to make someone who seems so frustratingly stupid a sympathetic figure. You have to work much harder and you have to make the reader see the cruel character's lovable side (just being sexy doesn't cut it). I don't think you'll ever win most people over completely, but you can make them understand - just the same as you can get people to root for a murderer if you play it right.

Just my opinion, mind. Lord knows, I'm no expert in love.

I would say the two basic reasons for falling in love with someone are pitying them and admiring them; usually a love story will have the admirer feeling both pity and admiration for the admiree. Both of these have darker versions - a sadistic person might pity a person whose suffering he himself is causing; an egotistic or insecure person might be want someone to be dependent on them and hero-worship them; admiration can be 2/3 intimidation; the admirer can want to bring out a quality that the admired person themself hates and wants to eliminate; the trait admired can be something the average person wouldn't consider admirable, like bloodthirstyness or inventing creative tortures; an attraction can be to an image or stereotype such as 'prince' with it's connotations of wealth and power rather than having any relation to that particular prince's inner self.

I'll disagree with some of the above posters and say that a Stockholm syndrome based romance can make for a great read. Especially if the captive/tormented character is aware that their attraction is unwise and possibly not sane, while the captive/tormenting character becomes aware that they are revealing their true self/making themself vulnerable to a person who has a good reason to want to stick a knife in the captor/tormentor's heart, and who the captor/tormentor has some ostensible reason to dislike, and would be hypocritical if they start wanting to protect this person instead. People often get a crush on someone for a reason that isn't a very good one or has more to do with the crusher's subconscious issues than with the crushee's actual self. But that's what the plot of the romance is for - the two character getting to know each others' inner selves, understand the motivations for their own attraction, and hopefully their feelings can mature into a healthier attraction and the relationship can become more real, fulfilling, and stable.

MetalDog said:

People can love people who are cruel without suffering from Stockholm Syndrome (can't speak for Bella, I haven't read Twilight). They don't love the cruel bits, they love all those moments when the person they love is kind and their friend. It's absolutely maddening to watch from the outside, but it is still love. They love the best of the person, the part the rest of us can't see because the bad bits take up all our vision. This is why women stay with men who beat them - they keep hoping for more of that man they love to emerge, even when their bones know better, the heart still hopes.

I think this is a problem in fiction when the author dwells on the love and denies/downplays the cruelty. It's hard to make someone who seems so frustratingly stupid a sympathetic figure. You have to work much harder and you have to make the reader see the cruel character's lovable side (just being sexy doesn't cut it). I don't think you'll ever win most people over completely, but you can make them understand - just the same as you can get people to root for a murderer if you play it right.

Just my opinion, mind. Lord knows, I'm no expert in love.

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QFT.

Loving someone despite their bad side is an important part of love. The hard part is portraying it realistically and sympathetically, too.

Blue - just a point of clarification from earlier in the thread. Abuse takes all forms and isn't just a matter of physical/sexual. Abuse can also be emotional/psychological. So a person who is cruel, who treats a person poorly even in just the words he/she uses, can still be abusive. Now I do think people can be in love with cruel abusive people. Often it has to do with the quality of the abuse. The cruel person will tell them that no one will every love them, that they are not worthy of good things. That they are lucky that they are taking care of them because no one else would put up with them. The person being told such things begins to believe it's true and so does everything they can not to lose their abuser for fear of being alone. When the abuser treats them kindly it is such a relief and so wonderful that they think those moments are moments of love.

But real love? True love? No. Such love does not come from those kinds of relationships (btw this is different from an S & M relationship where both parties in the relationship agree to the terms and want the experience).

Anyway, point is, abuse can be emotional too. To me, from what I have read in the past about this relationship, the girl most definitely is being abused. Maybe not physically, but she still is.

Toothpaste said:

Blue - just a point of clarification from earlier in the thread. Abuse takes all forms and isn't just a matter of physical/sexual. Abuse can also be emotional/psychological. So a person who is cruel, who treats a person poorly even in just the words he/she uses, can still be abusive. Now I do think people can be in love with cruel abusive people. Often it has to do with the quality of the abuse. The cruel person will tell them that no one will every love them, that they are not worthy of good things. That they are lucky that they are taking care of them because no one else would put up with them. The person being told such things begins to believe it's true and so does everything they can not to lose their abuser for fear of being alone. When the abuser treats them kindly it is such a relief and so wonderful that they think those moments are moments of love.

But real love? True love? No. Such love does not come from those kinds of relationships (btw this is different from an S & M relationship where both parties in the relationship agree to the terms and want the experience).

Anyway, point is, abuse can be emotional too. To me, from what I have read in the past about this relationship, the girl most definitely is being abused. Maybe not physically, but she still is.

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People often say things they don't mean, though, and people in lust are also good at deluding themselves about how awesome and worthy their object of affection is. I think it's easy for someone to love a person who speaks in a cruel way by simply believing the person doesn't really mean what they are saying - which may be true, or may be a delusion, or may be a delusion that becomes the truth later.

Battered Woman's Syndrome.

Look it up. It's a kind of domestic violence (domestic violence takes many forms, including abuse against children and abuse that isn't just physical). My grandmother was deemed to be suffering from battered woman's syndrome even though she's never been physically abused. Sometimes, yes, her husband was nice, but he would often point out her flaws and critisize. A result of Battered Woman's Syndrome is the victum can come to believe the things the abuser says.

A common theme with abuse is that the abuser isn't always a dickhead and apologizes afterward and has some seemingly redeeming traits--the probem is, no matter what the abuser says, the abuse continues. Similar patterns for non-physical abuse.

If you're really worried about it, look up more about domestic violence to better determine where your character's relationship falls on that scale.

You will definitely need to show why your character is "in love" with this man despite his cruelty. I believe it's possible for such a man to show moments of kindness, but those moments are never from the heart. Abusers give their victims flowers, chocolates, etc., and apologize afterwards all the time, only to beat the living crap out of them again. Also, I realize your character is 13, learning things the hard way, etc., but I hope you will make it very clear that there is a reason why she is into this guy and how she could be "blind" to his cruelty despite the reasons.

BlueLucario said:

Toothpaste: Can abusers sometimes be kind to the abused? Would that be possible?

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Yes of course. Abusers are human. Many of them take out their negative emotions on the people in their lives, but then when feeling positive also shower them with good stuff. Problem is, no matter how nice you are, it can't undo the negative. Only dull the pain a little.

Sunandshadow - I am not denying the possibility of that either. Humans are complex and each relationship unique. I was merely describing one possible scenario out of hundreds.