Learning the truth

Status
Not open for further replies.

GavinPreacher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
167
Reaction score
5
Jim Clark-Dawe alerted me to a post in agent Jeff Kleinmann's blog where he talks about query letters and refers, specifically to mine. He mentions the basic premise, goes on to say it sounds kind of interesting, but it also has a huge "yuck" factor and that i keep on working the letter and trying to fix it and all but the problem isn't the letter, the problem is the premise.

I had kind of figured, even suspected that this was the case and so at least now i know the truth. I can take that story and put it away and go ahead and work on something else. In fact, i have already started a new project that explores the world of a retired FBI agent who gets a cryptic text message in the middle of the night. It is fun, which in the end, is what this should be all about.
 

CaroGirl

Living the dream
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 27, 2006
Messages
8,368
Reaction score
2,327
Location
Bookstores
Writing a synopsis or query letter can expose weaknesses in a novel plot that can either render the work unpublishable or, with a little work, can be resolved to make the work salvageable. I've experienced both in the process of writing synopses/queries. It's not easy to face that some work is simply not publishable nor salvageable, but in the end it's the journey that counts. If you love writing, that is.

Best luck on your new project.
 

GavinPreacher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
167
Reaction score
5
Definitely .....

not giving up. I am just changing gears and putting one work away and picking up with another, without worrying about publishing or anything like that. Just have fun exploring the world of the characters.
 

Red-Green

KoalaKoalaKoala!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
4,392
Reaction score
3,782
Location
At the publishing party, whacking the piñata
Website
www.bryngreenwood.com
If it's the blog post I'm thinking of where JK mentions The Lovely Bones, I wonder if you're not shifting gears prematurely. Sure, HE doesn't want to see your book and had a yuck response. He is only one agent, though, and frankly he's notorious for his refusal to consider "child in peril" stories. I'm surprised you bothered to query him with it. How many other agents have you queried? Because he doesn't speak for the entire industry.
 

ORION

Sailed away years ago
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 25, 2006
Messages
1,996
Reaction score
348
Location
Hawaii
Website
patriciawoodauthor.com
But that's only one agent's opinion...Jeff makes it clear he doesn't like the "creepy" child killer-(I'm only giving examples here) side of thrillers.
I'm not saying it's not good to revisit- You might make sure the "yuck" factor applies to the agents who specialize in that genre...
Two years ago an agent did the same thing to my query in their blog using my query as an example saying LOTTERY stories were so over and - WMA picked me up the next month and LOTTERY sold to auction a few months later...
just sayin'
 

GavinPreacher

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
167
Reaction score
5
Maybe later .....

On i will come back to it and see it with much fresher eyes and give it another run. But i know it is there anytime i choose to pick it up.

For the time being i can spend some time with a new story, a new world, and new characters. The fun is back and i look forward to spending time with these people every day.
 

NicoleMD

Onomatopotamus
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
1,661
Reaction score
365
Ouch.

Good luck with your new project or whatever you decide to do. More hugs. :Hug2:

Nicole
 

Danthia

If you had a gut reaction that he was right, trust your gut. One of the hardest parts about being a writer is knowing when a projecting isn't working and being able to toss it aside and work on something new. That's how you wind up published :)
 

Twizzle

Cluck that.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2007
Messages
1,457
Reaction score
461
Location
Middle of the road.
Jim Clark-Dawe alerted me to a post in agent Jeff Kleinmann's blog where he talks about query letters and refers, specifically to mine.

Or, as an aside. Let's be fair. And accurate. He mentions, but doesn't name, a writers' website and a query which sounds similiar to yours. He didn't name you or your book specifically.

And he didn't say the problem was the book's entire premise. He said something about a "yucky opening" I do believe.

But regardless. If the comments resonated, whether they were about you or not, he's certainly someone whose opinion I would consider considering.
 
Last edited:

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
10,322
Reaction score
3,925
Location
New Hampshire
The advantage of a reputation like mine is you can give this sort of news and people expect it of you. But you're missing both my intent and Kleinmann's intent.

As Overkill, you came to QLH in April of 2008. By the end of the month, you had a pretty decent query. Premise came through, plot came through, had some voice. In other words, it met all the technical requirements needed for a successful query.

Now after querying a bit, you came back in December wondering why you got rejected. I don't know how many agents you queried, but your new query is substantially the same as your old one. Now if (and this is an if) Kleinmann is referring to your query, his issue isn't really with the opening, it's with the fact that after getting rejected with a perfectly decent query, all you're doing is trying to tweak the query.

I can tell a fair amount about your book from your query. You're opening isn't killing you with every agent. I can think of some books (Clive Cussler's ICEBERG springs to mind) that have worse openings than yours.

But at a certain point, something isn't working. Instead of doing some major overhauling, you're trying to take a sinking ship and hope it doesn't happen. As I told you in a PM, I'd query the hell out of this and see what you get.

Then you need to decide. Is this a trunk novel? Could well be. You won't be the first author with one and definitely won't be the last. Or take the whole book back into the shop, and rework it. You can pretty much guarantee that if a query is getting rejected (where the query isn't crap and yours isn't), the opening needs some serious work. After all, that's a central point of a query.

What Kleinmann is saying, and I agree with him, is for people to stop obsessing about their queries. Although I love playing around with queries, at a certain point you need to understand that time invested in them is not time well spent. You're at that point. I haven't seen a substantial change in your queries since the end of April. And my guess is you could play around with this from now to the end of the century, and as your book presently stands, it's not going to change.

Maybe you do need to change your opening. Maybe you need to change other things in your book. But more importantly, you've got a decent query and need to use it. Hopefully you won't need to write another query. Or maybe you'll need to rework your book.

Your problem is part of a bigger trend that Kleinmann was referring to obliquely. Writers are spending too much time working on producing the perfect query. We've got a couple people in QLH who are also obsessing about their queries.

I'm thinking we should have a "Get out of QLH" pass. People need to accept when they've gotten a reasonable query and try it with 50 agents or so (personally I'd go with more, myself). Then maybe they need to come back to QLH and rewrite the crap out of their query. The new query should be entirely different.

And one thing to remember in this industry: One person's opinion is exactly that -- one person's opinion. Unless it makes sense to you, wait until there is agreement.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Calla Lily

On hiatus
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
39,309
Reaction score
17,513
Location
Non carborundum illegitimi
Website
www.aliceloweecey.net
Overkill, I read the entire interview. (Thanks for the link, Jim.) I didn't interpret the comments as you did. I agree with those above who think it's a subjective comment from one (admittedly big) agent.

I'm just a writer, but I love horror with evil monsters and demons--yet I won't come within ten miles of horror that puts kids in jeopardy, I think that kind of personal preference is what the comments fell under in the article.

My opinionated opinion: Keep querying the book!
 

Red-Green

KoalaKoalaKoala!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
4,392
Reaction score
3,782
Location
At the publishing party, whacking the piñata
Website
www.bryngreenwood.com
Quoted for Jim's continuing wisdom about queries. I cringe to see people hashing their queries for months, or coming back to revise after a handful of queries. Usually, when Jim offers a few small points and leaves me without any gaping wounds, I figure that means I'm done until I see how agents react. Quite a few agents. At least two dozen.

I'm thinking we should have a "Get out of QLH" pass. People need to accept when they've gotten a reasonable query and try it with 50 agents or so (personally I'd go with more, myself). Then maybe they need to come back to QLH and rewrite the crap out of their query. The new query should be entirely different.
 

Overkill

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
269
Reaction score
4
thanks guys

Jim, especially, thanks for the input on this and it is always good to have opinions from people who are not as close to the subject as i am, since it's my query and all.

Maybe i can go and rework the opening and give it something more and make it better. But to be clear, there is no violence against children here. It is a full grown woman who kills herself. I have another project i am working on and what i can do in the interim is to send out some more queries and see what happens. Then, as i have a bigger sampling i can sit down and take all that i have and do a re-evaluation to see where i stand and what i want to do. Overhaul is possible, but i need to take time and sit down and think about it.

I will continue with my current WIP and give the other stuff some thought, throww some different ideas out there and see what i come up with. Maybe there's a solution, maybe there isn't. Time will be the judge.

But i want to thank everyone who took the time to comment on this and give me some subjective opinions. My reactios to things, especially what on the face appears to be negative news, is always knee jerk and harsh and self defeating and all of that.

So now i am ready to be back at work and see what can happen with all the stuff i have out there.

thanks again all you guys

Greg
 

Prawn

Writing is finite,revising infinite
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
2,361
Reaction score
429
Location
Beast Coast
Be thankful you got feedback!

I posted my query on Jane Reid's blog and her advice made me rethink the novel. I spent a couple of months revising the book, posted a revised query to her blog, and she requested the full (here it is, the new one is first and the old query is second).

If someone points out a weakness in the query which reveals a weakness in your book, s/he has done you a big favor.
 

JJ Cooper

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
2,511
Reaction score
1,247
Location
On a big Island
Greg/overkill/gavinpreacher, that article where he mentioned it (where the four agents where sitting around drinking wine and shooting the breeze) you'll also note the other agents mentioning how subjective their reading is and signing of clients. All is not lost.

Jeff is also involved on the query side of things at another forum. I'm thinking that's where he is talking about. So, unless you are a member at Backspace, it may not be yours.

JJ
 

Overkill

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
269
Reaction score
4
I am

a member of Backspace, and my query was posted on a forum there where agents look and comment. But, as of this morning i have forgotten all of that and starting fresh with renewed enthusiasm for my completed novel and my WIP. I have lots of fun work ahead of me and i can't wait to get into it.

thaanks again everyone
 

KikiteNeko

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
2,380
Reaction score
1,616
Heya,

Well I applaud you for accepting it for what it is and moving on to something else. As far as I know, no agent has ever publicly used me as an example, but I'm sure I along with everyone who's queried an agent have had at least one agent out there who has thought negative things about my manuscript or query. It just sucks that this agent made it public. Keep in mind that's just one agent's opinion also.

In a lot of cases the problem IS the story itself no matter how polished the query, but for what it's worth, I thought your final draft of the query was well done and the premise did sound interesting...
 

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
Overkill, Jim, folks et all --

From a writing standpoint this may be the most useful thread (to me) I've read in months.

I'll see you in QLH. Thanks.
 

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
10,322
Reaction score
3,925
Location
New Hampshire
One of the things I've been noticing is people posting queries on a bunch of different sites. Now to a certain extent, I think that might be a good idea on something like a first chapter. But on a query? I have to wonder.

Each site has it's own distinct style, and I'd probably be thrown off quite a few of them. There's one site where every query seems to be wonderful and everyone wants to read the book. (And no, I'm not going to name names.)

But all these styles cause a problem for the writers. Some people like series, others don't. What to start with is a big issue. You can include a bio or not. So on and so forth. Each site has its opinion, and then you have the agents who have theirs. Coming up with a one-size fits-all query is hard.

Net result is writers are driving themselves crazy with queries. Now you need a good query, and for some books, a great query is obtainable. But you do have to ask yourself whether a great query is worth the extra effort. And if you have a good query and it's not working, you need to ask some serious questions as to why.

There's no question agents are receiving better quality queries. And it's possible that with a little bit of work you might be someone who can go from a good query to a coffee-snorter. But for most of us? Instead of working so much on our queries, we'd do better mowing the lawn.

Much as I like playing with queries (and I don't plan on leaving QLH), I think what Kleinmann is saying, and I agree with him, is get a good query, see what you get. If it doesn't work, take the book back to the shop and rework the sucker (if you think it's worthwhile), and develop an entirely new query, and try again. But once you get a good query, stop thinking about it and the book. Start a new one and wait and see what happens.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 
Status
Not open for further replies.