Money or quality?

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

Murky Depths might only pay token amounts (plus two complimentary copies) but they are a quality magazine.
I received £120 for one of my short stories from a different magazine, but was really disappointed with the quality of the mag. I'd rather have been paid nothing to appear in Murky Depths. Ok, so I don't make a living out of writing (how many of us do?), but I'd much rather see my story in a magazine with high production values - and see how an artist has interpreted my story across a double-page spread - than see it in a poorly produced rag.

Does professional pay equal professional quality? Obviously not.

Given the choice what floats your boat? Money or quality?

Diana Hignutt · Jan 9, 2009

I didn't respond to your poll, becuase the two things aren't mutually exclusive. I would always investigate any mag I was going to submit to prior to submission. Most editors recommend this.

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

This is just my personal experience, so I am pretty sure it isn't going to reflect everyone else's!

In the SFF genre, higher pay does tend to lean toward higher quality, better respected magazines, but I agree that it is not always the case. Two examples of token paying markets which are highly respected are Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet and Farrago's Wainscot (which also sort of includes Behind the Wainscot, though that is more of an experimental play-zone). These two markets are in the same pay category as Murky Depths, so obviously money isn't everything when it comes to quality and respect.

But when I sort my markets on Duotrope to find the next place to send my work, I sort by highest paying because I know the percentage of good markets in the higher paying brackets is much larger than the percentage of good markets in the lower/non-paying brackets. And I just keep a mental note of which token-paying markets I have heard great things about in the industry.

So in my history of submission and magazine exploration, I just haven't run across Murky Depths yet. I do give them kudos for having a decent acceptance/rejection percentage on Duotrope, though, indicating that they are somewhat discerning on what they are printing. And kudos on keeping a print magazine going at a time in which print magazines are becoming more difficult to finance.

Just for fun, I skimmed one of the reviews at The Fix as well, but the review was a bit too review-lite for me to get an actual feel for the magazine (the kind of review you write when you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, so you just sort of summarize everything).

And I think that pretty much sums up my thoughts at the moment, with the addition that you still might want to post your original question from the Bragatorium thread up to see what responses you can gather there.

-Michelle

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

Diana Hignutt said:
I didn't respond to your poll, becuase the two things aren't mutually exclusive.

and it doesn't stop you leaving a comment.

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

Okay, actually, checking your profile, I must add a bit more.

Your original question regarding Murky Depths was looking for experiences from anyone else who'd been rejected by the magazine, I assumed for a bit of insight into what sorts of stories made it to their primary editors. But your profile states that you are a publishing editor of Murky Depths. I must admit I am a bit confused as to how you could not be more familiar with what makes it through the final slush pile at a magazine for which you edit.

Did I misinterpret the original question in the Bragatorium thread? I feel like I am having a bit of a blond morning.

-Michelle

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

drachin8 said:
Just for fun, I skimmed one of the reviews at The Fix as well, but the review was a bit too review-like for me to get an actual feel for the magazine (the kind of review you write when you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, so you just sort of summarize everything).
-Michelle

There is perhaps a more critical review at SFCrowsnest although something has happened to the formatting and it's rather 'thin'!

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

drachin8 said:
Okay, actually, checking your profile, I must add a bit more.

Your original question regarding Murky Depths was looking for experiences from anyone else who'd been rejected by the magazine, I assumed for a bit of insight into what sorts of stories made it to their primary editors. But your profile states that you are a publishing editor of Murky Depths. I must admit I am a bit confused as to how you could not be more familiar with what makes it through the final slush pile at a magazine for which you edit.

Did I misinterpret the original question in the Bragatorium thread? I feel like I am having a bit of a blond morning.

-Michelle

I'm interested to know the feelings of anyone who has submitted to Murky Depths. I think we do a pretty good job, but then I'm biased. Sorry, I should have made that clear. I submit under pseudonyms so the other editors are unaware that 'the big boss' is seeing if he can make it into his own mag(!). Obviously if one of my stories comes back with good comments but reservations, then I have to reject it - and I've done that three times with stories I think are Murky Depths stories (whereas I might be inclined to ask for a rewrite, an edit or even take it as it stands). The pages of Murky Depths have seen one of my poems.

While I know the types of stories Murky Depths prefers (although I'm often surprised by what we all agree upon) it's difficult to judge your own work, so I don't think my original question, given my position, was that strange . . . or was it?

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

That explains it better. I don't often open profiles, so it was just a bit weird to see you were an editor of Murky Depths after I had already pegged you as a writer looking for a behind-the-walls insight of a magazine.

I would suggest editing your Signature to do a bit of fun advertising of Murky Depths and to maybe make sure that the non-profile openers don't end up as confused as poor blond me (there are a lot of non-profile openers out there!). I am sure many folk here and in the Short Story sub-forum would appreciate your own insights on the workings of the magazine. It is good to get opinions from all angles of the industry.

Now off to work for me! The day job beckons...

-Michelle

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

drachin8 said:
I would suggest editing your Signature to do a bit of fun advertising of Murky Depths and to maybe make sure that the non-profile openers don't end up as confused as poor blond me.-Michelle

I've taken your advice.

mscelina · Jan 9, 2009

So let me see if I have this straight--you, as the publisher of a magazine, want to know whether we, the writers who would presumably submit to your magazine would prefer a higher paying market or a high quality but lower paying market, right?

Well, I do make my living off of writing. My submission order for every story goes from the highest-paid pro market down. While I have, upon occasion, submitted to a new publisher with a token payment system, it's usually because I know the people involved. Otherwise, I go for the money. I have bills to pay.

*shrug*

waylander · Jan 9, 2009

It depends on what my feeling is about the individual story. My good ones go for 5c per word or more.

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

mscelina said:
Well, I do make my living off of writing. My submission order for every story goes from the highest-paid pro market down. While I have, upon occasion, submitted to a new publisher with a token payment system, it's usually because I know the people involved. Otherwise, I go for the money. I have bills to pay. *shrug*

And I respect that. If I had to make a living from writing I'd probably have the same attitude. However, the cheaply produced magazine that published one of my short stories for a pro fee has left a lasting disappointment.

That the likes of Jon Courtenay Grimwwod and Stan Nicholls, and artists such as Vincent Chong, Jason Beam, Steve Stone and the legendary Chris Moore have been happy to appear in Murky Depths does say something for quality above money. Or maybe they earn enough already to be humble!

mscelina · Jan 9, 2009

Perhaps. Or, maybe, they have a system set up that is different from mine. Many authors operate with different goals/expectations than mine. There's nothing wrong with that and it certainly doesn't make them humble--or make me otherwise.

Look, if you want to promote your magazine that's fine. It's great. We have threads in which you can do just that. But in this forum you asked a question about money versus quality and two authors who answered you honestly were met with snippy little remarks from you in return.

I wish your publishing venture only the best success in the future. I see some AW members on your contributors list, which speaks well to me for your story selection processes. I'm impressed with the cover art on your website for the teaser issue and cast no qualms about the quality of your magazine in any way, shape or form.

I just think you should be a little more politic when you get answers to the questions you ask--even if they're not what you want to hear.

Good luck to you.

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

Lucifal said:
There is perhaps a more critical review at SFCrowsnest although something has happened to the formatting and it's rather 'thin'!

I only skimmed that review as well, but just wanted to say that it looks to be far more helpful in style for determining if the magazine would appeal to me. Weird how reviews can be like that, eh?

-Michelle

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

mscelina said:
But in this forum you asked a question about money versus quality and two authors who answered you honestly were met with snippy little remarks from you in return.

If my response came across as petty or over reactive then I'm sorry, it certainly wasn't intended to sound like that. Perhaps I don't spend enough time socialising! I actually expected more people to prefer money. Guess I was concerned I was the only one on the quality kick. But I'll shut up now in case I upset anyone else. My sincere apologies. Perhaps I should have added a few smilies to express myself more.

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

drachin8 said:
I only skimmed that review as well, but just wanted to say that it looks to be far more helpful in style for determining if the magazine would appeal to me. Weird how reviews can be like that, eh? -Michelle

Does that tell us not to hold store by reviews? We're always being told to buy a copy of the mag we're submitting to. I have zillions of single copies (and a few subscriptions to some of them) for that very reason. But it's never proved that useful to me! Although I still say it's sound advice.

ChaosTitan · Jan 9, 2009

For writers looking to build a career at this, the question that's more important than "money or quality" is "How does this forward my career?"

There are hundreds of places to submit SF/F stories: e-zines, print zines, fanzines, high-circulation magazines, anthologies, etc.... Certainly we'd all love to be published in Asimov's or other magazines of their caliber, because they are pro-rate, well-respected mags. That is a serious credit to add to your author's bio. Conversely, there are also well-respected e-zines that pay very little, but also add credit to your bio.

That's why we say research, research, research! Know who you're subbing to beforehand, and know your reasons. If short stories are your passion, it makes sense to start with the smaller mags and build yourself up; learn from your experience. If you want to write novels, those token-payment, little-known mag credits won't impress an agent.

On a personal note, Lucifal, I find your behavior at your own magazine (subbing your own work under a pseudonym) dishonest and irresponsible. If I heard of an editor at any magazine/publishing house doing this, I'd make it a point to not submit to that person.

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
On a personal note, Lucifal, I find your behavior at your own magazine (subbing your own work under a pseudonym) dishonest and irresponsible. If I heard of an editor at any magazine/publishing house doing this, I'd make it a point to not submit to that person.

Ouch! Dishonest and irresponsible? Could you please expand on that. What's stopping me printing my own stories either under my own name or under a pseudonym without going through our editorial process? I don't, by the way, nor do I intend to, but as the editor I could.

ChaosTitan · Jan 9, 2009

Lucifal said:
Ouch! Dishonest and irresponsible? Could you please expand on that. What's stopping me printing my own stories either under my own name or under a pseudonym without going through our editorial process? I don't, by the way, nor do I intend to, but as the editor I could.

I suppose it just strikes a personal nerve. Other pros in the industry who also publish (agent Dierdre Knight, editor Anne Lesley Groell) do it under their real names. But they also don't rep themselves or publish in their own houses.

They also don't come onto message boards and say

Murky Depths might only pay token amounts (plus two complimentary copies) but they are a quality magazine.
I received £120 for one of my short stories from a different magazine, but was really disappointed with the quality of the mag. I'd rather have been paid nothing to appear in Murky Depths. Ok, so I don't make a living out of writing (how many of us do?), but I'd much rather see my story in a magazine with high production values - and see how an artist has interpreted my story across a double-page spread - than see it in a poorly produced rag.

Which inches into the neighborhood of spam. It's impossible now, after learning you're an editor at MD, to take your praise of the mag at face value. You aren't a disinterested party, or just an author asking a question about money versus quality.

I understand you wanting to promote your mag and generate discussion, but a better way to do it is by being open and honest about your intentions. Starting this thread with "I'm an editor at a token-paying, but high quality print mag, and have a question..." would have been much better.

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

Lucifal said:
Ouch! Dishonest and irresponsible? Could you please expand on that. What's stopping me printing my own stories either under my own name or under a pseudonym without going through our editorial process? I don't, by the way, nor do I intend to, but as the editor I could.

I do have to agree that it is a bit of a conflict of interest, especially as writers tend to develop a recognizable voice over their careers. What is to keep the editors beneath you from recognizing your voice and responding more favorably because of that? Or responding more favorably to any story that even remotely seems like it might be from you? And while all behavior regarding the stories may be impeccable on the inside, from the outside of the magazine it is difficult to see that and not think "Oh, just another editor printing a magazine to showcase his/her own stories." I am not saying this is what you are doing (and it doesn't seem to be the case), but that the appearance can easily shift into that gray area. I think that is why most editors and slush readers don't submit to magazines which have their names on the staff lists, to avoid that visible conflict of interest, the possible taint of corruption.

And, think of the bright side--by having your stories accepted elsewhere, you can add a mention of being editor of Murky Depths in your bio, or make some great fun new industry contacts with other cool editors. I like bright sides.

-Michelle

KikiteNeko · Jan 9, 2009

A lot of the time quality makes the money.

But a lot of time crap makes money and quality makes diddly squat. I'd like to produce quality writing that makes money, but I wouldn't be willing to write sub-par crap to make money..

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
I understand you wanting to promote your mag and generate discussion, but a better way to do it is by being open and honest about your intentions. Starting this thread with "I'm an editor at a token-paying, but high quality print mag, and have a question..." would have been much better.

Point taken. I guess I could be accused of being deceitful.

Lucifal · Jan 9, 2009

drachin8 said:
"Oh, just another editor printing a magazine to showcase his/her own stories." I am not saying this is what you are doing (and it doesn't seem to be the case), but that the appearance can easily shift into that gray area.-Michelle

Issue #7 is about to go to the printers and we've almost filled issue #9. You won't see any of my stories in Murky Depths, although if I wasn't involved in it I'd certainly aspire in that direction, regardless of payment, because it is not a typical small press genre magazine - and I'm not just saying that because it's my baby - I'm very self critical.

drachin8 · Jan 9, 2009

Lucifal said:
Does that tell us not to hold store by reviews? We're always being told to buy a copy of the mag we're submitting to. I have zillions of single copies (and a few subscriptions to some of them) for that very reason. But it's never proved that useful to me! Although I still say it's sound advice.

I think it tells us more that the quality of the review is important. I have difficulty trusting a review that appears to like every single story because the likelihood of a single person enjoying every story in a magazine equally well is a bit low. I also like to see how certain stories have elements which work for a reviewer while others do not. And then I like to see what reviewers think of stories I have read to see how we compare on our interpretation of different stories. So I think a good review that isn't scared to say what it really thinks is invaluable. That review you linked to seemed stronger in nature, though I again admit to only skimming it this morning. The review I linked to worked less well for me because I found that it had no meat of the sort I look for in a review, and so my trust level of it dropped.

As for studying the magazines we submit to, I have mixed feelings. I think it is a great idea, but then I feel awful because I haven't followed it quite as much as I ought to have. Especially right now as I have been in more of a novel mood for months.

-Michelle

Fenika · Jan 9, 2009

Wait, so you sub-ed to your own mag, under a pen name, but didn't include your real name, which is standard practice when submitting...

Who were they going to write the check too?

And why would you come on here and leak that info in an unprofessional, poorly thought out manner?

:e2hammer:

(Sorry, I've been trying to bite my tongue, but have obviously failed)

Money or quality?

Money or quality

Money

Quality

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