Another question regarding multiple POVs

[Rhea L]

Hey, guys. Long time no see. :)

Let me start from stating that as a reader, I'm not overly fond of summaries, where important things happen but the POVs aren't there to witness them, and I thought I'd managed to avoid having to use those in my book. The question I'm about to ask pertains to multiple POVs, a yes/no/why-not in regards to my WIP. :) Bear with me, please.

I originally wrote draft #1 of the novel using two POV characters. I went fairly deep into each POV and tried to guide the storyline in such a way that everything relevant to the plot would be right there on the page.

Until I got to draft #2. One of the problems I realized I had was that the nearer to the climax I got, the more confusing it became. Now the story itself wasn't so, except what was on the page was a different thing entirely. The reason was that my group of characters split so they could do what had to be done, and I couldn't show what I felt was important but happened where my POVs didn't go (because they had their own tasks to complete during the same time).

Another problem I discovered was slightly different but related: there are two worlds in my novel. The MCs happen to be all from one of them. Initially, they don't care a whole lot for the other world, but it changes towards the end of the novel. My idea of making the reader give a damn about it is to show that it matters to someone, that it's someone's home, etc. But none of my POVs would naturally present it that way, because to them, it simply... isn't.

Now the way I've seen it done, as a possible solution for both problems above, a temporary POV would be introduced solely for the purpose of showing one particular bit of action that happens in the absence of the MCs. My question: is it worth it? Do you find it jarring? For a long time, I wasn't big on that - until I saw it done well (or I thought it was done well, in any case) in a way that advanced the story and made it easy to follow, by getting all the important things on the page in a more or less chronological order, and avoiding those "now we've done things, let's fill everyone in on the details" conversations I happen to dislike.

Now doing that would mean the structure of the novel as I've been writing it so far would have to be changed... I'm not against it, but I'm also not convinced I should do this.

For the record, I write fantasy, and while the story isn't necessarily epic, it's fairly large in scope despite unfolding over the course of four days in story-time. I suppose what I'm asking is - should I stick to my MC-POVs no matter what, or is it okay to use multiple, one-time POVs for the sake of the story? I admit that kind of feels like taking the easy way out to me, for some reason.

I'll be glad for any and all pointers you guys can give me on this.

[NicoleMD]

I say try out the temporary POV and see how it works. If your reader is used to going between the two POVs, then adding another won't be jarring. Readers really aren't as sensitive as we pretend them to be. They'll figure it out.

An example that jumps out at me is Snow Crash (I know, all of my examples involve Neal Stephenson! Go figure.) There are two main POVs, Hiro and YT, but then YT's mother gets a scene that no one else would be able to tell. I thought it was neat to get into the head of another character I'd heard so much about for the rest of the book. There's also a scene from the POV of a robot dog which was sooooo touching (robots and dogs being my two most favorite things in the world.)

So I guess, if it works, it works. Or maybe it won't work. But you'll never know until you try it.

Nicole

[Jerry B. Flory]

Another angle to go here. If it's going to be jarring, make it really jarring. Make it stand right up and kick your reader in the teeth. Crash into their heads and break all the windows.

[Stunted]

I think it would be bad if there were just one character who shows up once halfway through, but if you have sort of tangential characters running around the whole time, so long as everyone's story has a conclusive ending and the characters are all good, then it might be okay.

[blacbird]

Most novel writers, especially beginning novel writers, would benefit greatly by adopting a "standard" POV for narration (either first- or third-limited), and soldiering diligently onward within the discipline imposed by that POV. Experimenting with POV is almost always a journey into quagmire for a beginning writer. Especially if the only reason is curiosity, or "because I can". Spend your energy on more productive aspects of your writing. Like, character and story.

caw

[Liosse de Velishaf]

One of the interesting facts of writing is that what is on the page is never everything one would like to have on the page. Sometimes, you do have to let the reader work it all out.

Introducing a temp perspective character for the purpose of one small back-stage event could or could not work. Many fantasy authors have used temp perspectives, GRRM for instance, but most of his are also inetgral to the story when you aren't in their perspective. Also, about the other world, if your characters eventually grow to like it, there doesn't seem to be all that much of a problem perspective-wise. If they don't care much initially, it doesn't seem necessary that the reader should either, especially if the other perspective means that the reader is watching them trample all over a world the reader really likes. On the same topic, it may not be an issue of perspective, but an issue of story-telling at work here. You haven't explained enough for me to do more than hazard a few possibilities. First, you need to consider why you've brought these characters to this other world. What is their purpose there? How does this purpose affect their feelings towards the world? How well do you want their current feelings to mesh with the readers'? That last one is especially important. Finally, how much effect do these feelings have on the characters' motivations to do whatever it is they are doing in/for this other world? How important to a reader enjoying/believing in the story is the reader caring about the world? Finally, how would connecting this caring perspective to the off-stage action affect those two aspects of the story?

[blacbird]

So I guess, if it works, it works. Or maybe it won't work. But you'll never know until you try it.

Correct. But always have a good reason, inherent to and organic within your story for trying it. And always keep your prospective reader in mind when you do. Trying this kind of thing, just as a fetish or gimmick, or doing it by accident because you don't have adequate control over your narrative technique, is never a good idea, IMO.

caw

[Dale Emery]

Now the way I've seen it done, as a possible solution for both problems above, a temporary POV would be introduced solely for the purpose of showing one particular bit of action that happens in the absence of the MCs. My question: is it worth it? Do you find it jarring?

If the third POV shows up for just a short bit, that can be annoying.

Can you give the third POV character a small arc that's interesting on its own? The idea is to introduce the third character's arc early, before the other two have reached the midpoint, then drop a scene in now and then. That way, the POV character is not just delivering information, but also carrying a plot of her own, with conflict and action and all.

Dale

[Rhea L]

Most novel writers, especially beginning novel writers, would benefit greatly by adopting a "standard" POV for narration (either first- or third-limited), and soldiering diligently onward within the discipline imposed by that POV. Experimenting with POV is almost always a journey into quagmire for a beginning writer. Especially if the only reason is curiosity, or "because I can". Spend your energy on more productive aspects of your writing. Like, character and story.

caw

I'm not quite sure if you haven't read my post carefully or you were just making general statements about approaching POV, but I asked my question precisely because I'm trying to find the best way to tell the story, not because I want to experiment out of curiosity or "because I can".

As a general comment, what you said is, of course, very much correct and worth to remember. I don't quite see how it applies, though.

Thanks, anyway.

[Rhea L]

First, you need to consider why you've brought these characters to this other world. What is their purpose there? How does this purpose affect their feelings towards the world?

Finally, how much effect do these feelings have on the characters' motivations to do whatever it is they are doing in/for this other world? How important to a reader enjoying/believing in the story is the reader caring about the world? Finally, how would connecting this caring perspective to the off-stage action affect those two aspects of the story?

Yeah, explaining everything in detail might be tricky - you'd probably have to read the novel for that... ;-) Anyway,

They created that world, out of necessity (that's a huge oversimplification here). That's why it's important. But the fact they're not fond of it doesn't mean they can avoid taking responsibility for what they made. Their society/culture as a whole has a bad attitude towards it, something that makes sense to them but is, from the objective standpoint, simple ignorance and fear.

The issue lies in the fact that they (the characters) are wrong, but there's no way to show that. And I think it's important to show before my MCs notice it, mostly because it raises the stakes. If the reader isn't shown any decent reason to care, they won't care when someone goes, "oh, we don't care if that world survives or not". But if they can see what it's really like...

In any case, you ask good questions and they definitely made me think. So, thank you. :D

[Rhea L]

If the third POV shows up for just a short bit, that can be annoying.

Can you give the third POV character a small arc that's interesting on its own? The idea is to introduce the third character's arc early, before the other two have reached the midpoint, then drop a scene in now and then. That way, the POV character is not just delivering information, but also carrying a plot of her own, with conflict and action and all.

Dale

Thanks to your question about the small arc, I think I've just solved at least part of this problem. In the second half of the story, one of my MCs meets two people from that other world, and they stay with him until the climax. Might as well introduce them earlier and let them narrate if something important in their part of the millieu comes up.

Thanks for helping me think! ;-)

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Yeah, explaining everything in detail might be tricky - you'd probably have to read the novel for that... ;-) Anyway,

They created that world, out of necessity (that's a huge oversimplification here). That's why it's important. But the fact they're not fond of it doesn't mean they can avoid taking responsibility for what they made. Their society/culture as a whole has a bad attitude towards it, something that makes sense to them but is, from the objective standpoint, simple ignorance and fear.

The issue lies in the fact that they (the characters) are wrong, but there's no way to show that. And I think it's important to show before my MCs notice it, mostly because it raises the stakes. If the reader isn't shown any decent reason to care, they won't care when someone goes, "oh, we don't care if that world survives or not". But if they can see what it's really like...

In any case, you ask good questions and they definitely made me think. So, thank you. :D


An interesting issue, though I think there are other ways to approach it. On the other hand, bringing in the otherworld characters earlier sounds like a perfectly useful solution. Though you're putting your MC's at a possible disadvantage by undercutting the reader's trust in them. Sounds like a real challenge to keep their motivations believable in the face of superior knowledge. Hope it turns out well.

[Rhea L]

It should be noted that you're putting your MC's at a possible disadvantage by undercutting the reader's trust in them. Sounds like a real challenge to keep their motivations believable in the face of superior knowledge. Hope it turns out well.

Yes, yes. And I like it that way. It is somewhat risky, and if it ends up not working very well, I'll tweak it until it does... or such is the plan, anyway, but one of the key points to this novel is that everything is shades of grey (the villain is very much the hero of his own story, etc). So I hope it works out. :)

Thanks again, Liosse. :)

[Stunted]

The issue lies in the fact that they (the characters) are wrong, but there's no way to show that.

I mean, I don't know much about your story, but...I don't know. If you make it clear that this is a whole world, even if the characters don't care, I might be apprehensive about letting it go up in smoke.

Maybe there's a character who has some reason to be slightly more sympathetic than the others, even though that goes against his culture or whatever.

[Feidb]

I'll give you the example of my first icky bug. The main POV is Bob. However, the way I wanted to tell the story, I needed more because he couldn't be everywhere and see everything. So, I created another POV for Tom, the sheriff. Then I had to have the human bad guy so we could see through his eyes. There's another POV. Then I wanted the reader to see through each victim's eyes, so I created a POV for each victim, one-off, mind you. Then there are other characters who had their place. In the end, I ended up with 23 POV characters. 6 were main and the rest were incidental, including omni, which I included as a POV.

The thing is that I just wrote it without worrying about POV's and it ended up that way. At that time, 1994, I didn't know diddly about writing and just wrote. Though I'm much more educated now, I still pretty much write the same way. I just do it. Now, of course, I have lots of "rules" getting in the way, so the process is a bit slower, but still essentially the same. At least I have a good time of it, whether anyone else likes it or not.

I pretty much got crucified for having too many characters. Then I heard your plight. You don't even have a third of the POV's I did in that icky bug, so I don't think you have much to worry about.

As a knee jerk reaction to all the flack, I now write with only 1 POV and just make everything work with it. I haven't given up on multiple POV's, it's just that I'm seeing if I'll have any better luck by keeping it simple for the reader, for now.