Said bookisms: what if the character really whispers the line?

[underthecity]

I understand the concept of "said bookisms," that is, substituting other words for "said." In fact, it seems I need to trim quite a few from my story.

But what if the character reallys whispers the line? Or yells it? How do you get the point across if you're not allowed to write "she whispered"?

[vixey]

I think you can use 'she whispered' or you could say 'she lowered her voice'. IMHO It's the overuse of 'said bookisms' that are a problem.

[Gillhoughly]

You're allowed to have "she whispered."

Really. You are. ;)

[Cranky]

I think you can use 'she whispered' or you could say 'she lowered her voice'. IMHO It's the overuse of 'said bookisms' that are a problem.

Yep. Don't let yourself get too bound up in the "rules". If she whispered, she whispered.

[The Lonely One]

Hmm well, for "she whispered," I do this:

"What's happening?" she whispered.
"They're killing him. They're killing him. Jesus--"
"Shh. They'll kill us too if they find us here."

Using italics seems to work for me when there are a bunch of "whispers" going back and forth. reverse the italics for emphasis, etc.

Here's where said bookisms don't work:

"I hate you!" John screamed hatefully, slamming the door multiple times on the fingers of his used-to-be best friend.
"But you're my best friend!" Josh belted painfully, having his fingers slammed in the door multiple more times by John, his used-to-be best friend.

What's ridiculous is that, without much more subtlety than is used here, this type of thing is quite common. It's a scene crutch, or else superfluous and repetitive (and, to a sensitive reader, insulting).

"I hate you," John said (or yelled, if you must, but leave off the adverb). He slammed Josh's fingers in the door.

"But, you're my best friend." Josh whimpered, but kept his fingers in the slamming door to keep it from closing forever on their friendship. <---even this I think is too much. I decided to snip it.

Not perfect, but better I think. The scene talks without repeating emotions.

[maestrowork]

Whisper is fine. Or any manners of speaking that can't be easily indicated by the dialogue or action: shout, yell, mutter, mumble, bellow, etc.

And like others said, it's the overuse of such that is the problem. If the characters shout, yell, mutter, and whisper all the time, it gets really tiresome.

Said-bookism is only silly when you replace the "said" with something that can easily be done with dialogue alone -- it's redundancy: reply, retort, answer, respond, etc. Worse, words that have nothing to do with "saying" something: laugh, giggle, sigh, shrug, hiss...

But what if the character reallys whispers the line? Or yells it? How do you get the point across if you're not allowed to write "she whispered"?

Me think once you set up the scene that the characters are whispering (for example, they've been eavesdropping or they were gossiping among themselves), then you could just drop the tags or use "said" instead. It's understood -- trust the readers.


"She's a slut," Mary whispered.
"How would you know?"
"Reba told me."
"And how did she know?"
"Mona told her."
"Sssh. She's coming this way."

[NeuroFizz]

As Gill and Ray have suggested, whispered is one that is tough to get through to the reader with dialogue alone, but TLO and Ray gave a good example of how it is mentioned once, but the whispering is kept up in the dialogue set without continually using it as a tag (which would be annoying). It's a bit easier to use dialogue to indicate shouting, and if used sparingly, the exclamation point is a useful tool. It's because all kind of actions, in the form of dialogue beats, can be used:

Joe backed Rodney up against the wall. "Dammit, Rodney, she's my fucking girlfriend." He slammed his fist through the wallboard within inches of Rodney's ear. "Touch her again and that'll be your face."

In this case, it doesn't matter if it is shouted or spoken between gritted teeth. The reader gets the emotion loud and clear from the words, and that reader has the freedom to interpret it either way.

[ClaudiaGray]

You can get away with replied, whispered, shouted, screamed, muttered, etc. as long as you use them sparingly and, as you say, when it's useful.

[TnD]

I think that 'whispered' is fine. Matter of fact, most anything is fine in moderation. But if you have someone 'mutter' twenty-three times, maybe you need to change that one.

But, please, try to keep your adverbs to a minimum. Bare minimum. As in, like, four in the entire book. :D

[underthecity]

I was flagged in a sample in SYW for having said bookisms and adverbs. I didn't think I had overdone either, but evidently I had. "Whispered" was one that was flagged, which was what inspired this thread.

I'm still trying to get over Neurofizz using the word "fucking."

allen

[NeuroFizz]

I was flagged in a sample in SYW for having said bookisms and adverbs. I didn't think I had overdone either, but evidently I had. "Whispered" was one that was flagged, which was what inspired this thread.

I'm still trying to get over Neurofizz using the word "fucking."

allen
"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered.

[scarletpeaches]

"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered.

"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered quietly.

[The Lonely One]

"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered.


Hmm this reminds me of a short I posted in SYW...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125114

Not trying to cheat my way into feedback or anything like that. Nope. Not me, etc.

[maestrowork]

"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered quietly and farted loudly.

.

[The Lonely One]

"Hey, Joe said it, I didn't," NeuroFizz whispered quietly and farted loudly.

:roll:

[maestrowork]

I was flagged in a sample in SYW for having said bookisms and adverbs. I didn't think I had overdone either, but evidently I had. "Whispered" was one that was flagged, which was what inspired this thread.

Those who flagged "whisper" as said-bookism was taking this to the extreme. Now, of course, if you have six whispereds in row, then it's a matter of overusing it. Like I said, if you've established the scene and why these people are whispering, one "whispered" is good enough.

[Jerry B. Flory]

"Whispered" was one that was flagged


I think that's the key phrase here.
One bookism that really says something or adds to the storyline, one adverb that pegs the definition of what you're saying, cool beans. But don't kill your story by loading it down with them every time someone speaks.
That is the point your readers were trying to convey.

[sharla]

Originally, my characters whispered, muttered, raised their eyebrows and shrugged their shoulders all the time. I didn't realize it till I did a search, and found out they were some moody, twitchy people! ;)

[Adam Hammonds]

So many of these threads on this board.

My next book will be entirely without saids. If Georges Perec can write an entire novel without the letter e, I should be able to do one without said. And Absolutewrite can't do a damned thing about it! [scream]

[Gynn]

"Sorry," Brom apologized.

My all-time fav!

[underthecity]

"Sorry," Brom apologized.

"That one sounds like a Clive Cussler line," he observed pointedly.

[Don]

So many of these threads on this board.

My next book will be entirely without saids. If Georges Perec can write an entire novel without the letter e, I should be able to do one without said. And Absolutewrite can't do a damned thing about it! [scream]
You can certainly write a book without 'said' or without the letter e.

Selling it, however, may be another matter.

[Ken Schneider]

Said in h/h most quiet voice.

barely audible.

Leaned in close to her ear and said.

said so no else could hear.

[Ken Schneider]

You can certainly write a book without 'said' or without the letter e.

Selling it, however, may be another matter.

Right, unless it's a kids book. Or, you already have an abundance of paying followers to your writing.

said is best.

Too many, cortled, apologized,quipped, etc., is rookie like.

[Mumut]

If I think I'm using said bookisms too much I change the way I write the sentence as follows, for example.
"That's your target," John whispered.
I change to:
John leaned over and whispered urgently.
"That's your target," he said.

Something like that, anyway.

[IceCreamEmpress]

If you're talking about the "unveils the Ghost Machine" bit that you currently have up on SYW, I didn't have a problem with "whispered" at all.

The problem was too many dialogue tags in general, and too many "said + description of how he said it" tags.

"Whispered", "shouted", "called", and a few others are OK sparingly. "Said + description" is OK sparingly. But by "sparingly" here I mean at most once per two or three pages.

[James D. Macdonald]

Gadsby (http://www.spinelessbooks.com/gadsby/01.html), by Ernest Vincent Wright, does not contain the letter "e".

If youth, throughout all history, had had a champion to stand up for it; to show a doubting world that a child can think; and, possibly, do it practically; you wouldn’t constantly run across folks today who claim that “a child don’t know anything.”A child’s brain starts functioning at birth; and has, amongst its many infant convolutions, thousands of dormant atoms, into which God has put a mystic possibility for noticing an adult’s act, and figuring out its purport....

[James D. Macdonald]

Said + description puts you into Tom Swiftie territory. Beware.

"I love hotdogs," Mandie said with relish.

[MelodyO]

My 10 year old is reading the Warrior series of books (about cat warriors), and as far as I can ascertain, the author has a personal vendetta against the word said, and refuses to use it when a growled, mewed, complained, inquired, insisted, hissed, or reassured will work just as well. It gives me an actual stomach ache to read it, but she admires it to no end and has picked up the habit in her own stories as a tribute...and also because she knows it bugs the living daylights out of me.

In closing, any rule can be broken if you have a story the masses want. Especially masses of tweens.

[Ken Schneider]

My 10 year old is reading the Warrior series of books (about cat warriors), and as far as I can ascertain, the author has a personal vendetta against the word said, and refuses to use it when a growled, mewed, complained, inquired, insisted, hissed, or reassured will work just as well. It gives me an actual stomach ache to read it, but she admires it to no end and has picked up the habit in her own stories as a tribute...and also because she knows it bugs the living daylights out of me.

In closing, any rule can be broken if you have a story the masses want. Especially masses of tweens.


That's a whole different ballgame.

It is thought that kids need these kinds of tags to help them understand better the feelings and actions of the characters.

[Toothpaste]

It might be thought, but it is completely untrue.

[scarletpeaches]

In a way, then, that's talking down to the reader, if a writer assumes they won't understand more subtle nuances.

[The Lonely One]

I read a few pages of one of the books based on the "Halo" game series today.

It was almost as bad as Doom the movie.

Almost.

I just about threw up in my mouth after a paragraph and I think this may highlight a little bit of the "why do you hate adverbs" thing:

"Woah, watch out!" Sgt. Jensen screamed loudly over the loud hiss of acid burning near his chiseled chin muscles. A grenade exploded conflagratorily off by the storage barrel.
"Charlie?" Jensen said, but it was silent for a while and then the other guy talked.
"I'm good, T-Bone!!! It almost got me that time!"

Just because the book will sell based on the game's success alone doesn't mean you can just shit all over 200-300 pages.

If ever tree-hugging hippies were needed to chain themselves up in the rainforest...

[scarletpeaches]

..."Woah, watch out!" Sgt. Jensen screamed loudly over the loud hiss of acid burning near his chiseled chin muscles. A grenade exploded conflagratorily off by the storage barrel.
"Charlie?" Jensen said, but it was silent for a while and then the other guy talked.
"I'm good, T-Bone!!! It almost got me that time!"...

Tell me you're kidding. :Jaw:

[The Lonely One]

Tell me you're kidding. :Jaw:

Okay, I embellished a bit.

Okay, I embellished a lot.

[Ken Schneider]

In a way, then, that's talking down to the reader, if a writer assumes they won't understand more subtle nuances.

Absolutely. We're talking about little kids who don't understand subtle nuances.

[maestrowork]

Kids may actually need the growls and screams and mutters and hisses to understand how certain things were said. I forgive the author of children's and even middle-grade fiction to use said-bookism and adverbs extensively. Still, it doesn't have to be that way. Kids can learn to understand the nuances. Some are very sophisticated readers.

I wouldn't, however, excuse YA authors (let alone adult fiction authors) to abuse said-bookism and adverbs.

[Toothpaste]

Sorry. Once again I'll add, at least in MG, it isn't necessary. Like you say Maestro, kids can not only learn the nuances, but they get them. They might not understand how, but they do get them.

[MelodyO]

Bless you, Toothpaste. A few said-bookisms are great fun, especially when we're talking cat warriors - but every single page of a sixteen book series? I'm not picking on the author, who is massively successful just as she is. It's just my own limits to what my tummy can take while reading.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

When I was in second grade(what is that? 7 or 8?), I was reading stacks of books, including stuff like Tolkein (though I didn't get very far with him 'til about fourth grade) and McCaffrey and other random sci-fi/fantasy/mystery stuff. I also read Boxcar Children. ;) But my point is, I didn't need nor even enjoy said-bookisms. I endured them. Not all 8-year-olds are me, but a lot of them could be if given the chance.

[Ken Schneider]

Yep, but it is an accepted practice in youth writing. I'm not talking adult or YA or MG.
Some kids are smarter than others, but that's a minority.

I don't like it, you don't like it, and you can rag on it, and disagree with me. But...
The next time we have an asked the Agent, Editor, asked them.

Or better yet, go pick up a kids book in your house and look for yourself.

[scarletpeaches]

Absolutely. We're talking about little kids who don't understand subtle nuances.

No, we're talking about kids who you assume don't understand subtle nuances.

[NeuroFizz]

Maybe, as the next generation of writers, we have the ability to influence what is accepted and what isn't in the coming decades. Maybe we should strive to produce what we consider to be the absolute best prose regardless of what is being done now and what is considered acceptable now. This applies to all genres, including children's books. Readers will adapt to prevailing peculiarities of the craft, and this does include young readers.

For every one of our writing endeavors, we should hold our own writing up to the highest possible standard of excellence. And through a site like this, we can nudge each other about what we consider to be that standard. This means avoiding the "they did it so I can do it, too" approach to writing prose.

[Ken Schneider]

No, we're talking about kids who you assume don't understand subtle nuances.

You're right, I'm wrong. You win.
Merry Christmas to all.

[Toothpaste]

Ken, maybe you are right in that it is more acceptable to the publishing community, but as an MG author myself, one who works very hard to get rid of such things in her writing, I can tell you that children seem to get and appreciate the subtle nuances in my work without me having to spell everything out for them. Now maybe adults assume they can't, but that doesn't make it a fact. From personal experience I can tell you, kids are pretty darn smart and don't need that kind of help.

At the same time I will say that I am not talking in absolutes here. I think that one can use bookisms on occasion if they don't overwhelm the story. I think they can be quite lovely every once and a while. But my reason for responding to this thread is that I would rather authors not give themselves an excuse for lazy writing. If they CHOOSE to use one of these bookism things then great, but if they can't think of a better way of doing it and say to themselves: "Well it doesn't matter, it's a book for kids, I can get away with it" - well that's a bit of a problem. Writing for children requires as much technique and care as writing for adults.

You probably weren't implying otherwise, but I felt a need to step in and make my point for fear a lurker might think, "Awesome, I'll just write for kids then since it doesn't matter what I write!"

[Alan Yee]

Then, of course, there's this classic said-bookism:

"I'm coming!" he ejaculated.


In my opinion, "he/she ejaculated" is never an appropriate dialogue tag. "Whispered" should be fine, as long as it's not overused.