First Person Narration & Tenses

katatonic · Dec 19, 2008

Hey all, had a quick question regarding First Person Narration and tenses.

Ok, so in my current WIP my MC dies at the end and I was thinking of clearing up the question of "How can a dead person tell the story?" by beginning in first person present tense at the climax.

So my MC would fill us in on the current situation in first person present tense and then tell the story of how they got here in first person past and then when they reach the climax revert back and continue in first person present tense. When the MC dies he would finish mid sentence and another character would fill us in on his death. Is that the right way to do it?

I can already guess that many will say that its a bad idea/risk/stupid or whatever, but I'm not worried about taking the risk.

Of course I'm open to any suggestions...

Cheers

FennelGiraffe · Dec 19, 2008

katatonic said:
So my MC would fill us in on the current situation in first person present tense and then tell the story of how they got here in first person past and then when they reach the climax revert back and continue in first person present tense.

Anything can work if it's handled well, but why not use present tense all the way through? Have the MC just tell the story as it is happening.

Makai_Lightning · Dec 19, 2008

Though I see where other people might shoot you for it (some people loathe present tense or the MC dying at the end--not an issue for me personally), I think there's potential to do it well. Harder than traditional storytelling, but if you're willing to try it, I'm certainly not going to stop you.

I would suggest, though, that you frame it so that whoever tells the story at the end after you MC dies, if that's how you do it, you make sure that when it happens it makes sense to the reader. From the way you set up the story and narrative, you can do that, or you can do things like frame the story in someone elses viewpoint, and end it there, because things like that have a nice symmetry. There's more than one way to set it up, but I'd say you want to make sure the reader is prepared enough, even if they don't expect the death. When you play around with formatting and things like that, you really just need to make sure the story's set up in a way it and the reader can handle it.

katatonic · Dec 19, 2008

Hey FennelGiraffe, good question. Since I switch between 3 different characters in first person I opted for first person past. There's a few things I need to foreshadow otherwise it will come off smug and cheap. Also the timeline isn't linear, and I'm not keen on writing completely in first person present

Thanks Makai, I hear what you're saying and I should have filled you in better. When my MC dies and finishes mid sentences, the POV switches to one of the other POV characters who is the one that killed him. So the transition is immediate.

Hope that clears it up a little...

Gillhoughly · Dec 19, 2008

Most ideas for a book can work if they're well written.

1) Get Strunk and White's Elements of Style and have it at hand on your desk. All the pros have this book.

Copies are cheap at used stores, and there's one for free on line, but I prefer having the book on my desk, not in the 'puter.

2) Go to the library and read all the books you can find that are written in first person.

Seriously. Read them. There's plenty in the mystery section. From Conan Doyle to Mary Stewart to Mickey Spillane to Donald Westlake. Teachers and their treasures await you.

When you see how other writers handle it there's no need for you to reinvent the wheel.

Since the 80s I've sold about 20 books using first person and that's how I learned.

Only afterward did someone inform me it's supposed to be the hardest VP to write.

I thought they were daft, as it's always worked for me.

maestrowork · Dec 19, 2008

If you do it well, it can work. Don't mind those who say "1st/present" is stupid.

It worked for Fight Club -- which began with 1st present, the switched to 1st past and back to 1st present...

jclarkdawe · Dec 19, 2008

Now personally I think first person present works, but ...

THE PICTURE just went through a grueling round of query letter and partial rejections. One reason that I was given by two agents was that first person present is so limiting they weren't interested. Now if I was a better writer, maybe I could have pulled it off, but apparently I'm not. Result is while THE PICTURE was in the shop, it was changed into first person past tense.

So do you feel lucky?

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Jake Barnes · Dec 19, 2008

I just got through re-reading "Presumed Innocent", it was a big best-seller in the late eighties. It's written in first person present, but you hardly notice. It took me a couple of pages to realize it. There are a lot of flashbacks but since it's in present you don't notice it so much and it doesn't slow the story down (most of the time).

Clair Dickson · Dec 19, 2008

Go read "Double Indemnity" by James M. Cain.

It's first person.

I don't want to spoil anything... but it's got some similarities to how you're writing your story. I think Cain handled the narrator thing pretty well.

The Lonely One · Dec 19, 2008

I have done this very thing, though the story I'm referring to hasn't been published (though, I haven't tried).

I don't see any issue with what you've proposed. Maybe there's even a way to pull it off without switching characters at the end. Do readers need that final "this is what happened?" If not, I would just stick to getting the important aspects of the story out and end it where it ends. Readers think they need closure but the meat will satisfy them if it's juicy enough.

Jerry B. Flory · Dec 19, 2008

There's always devices, too.
Journals and diaries left behind. Lots of ways for a dead guy to keep yapping away.

FennelGiraffe · Dec 19, 2008

katatonic said:
Hey FennelGiraffe, good question. Since I switch between 3 different characters in first person I opted for first person past. There's a few things I need to foreshadow otherwise it will come off smug and cheap.

???

Foreshadowing doesn't have anything to do with tense. Are you having your MC say things like "Little did I know" or "Later I would find out"? That isn't foreshadowing, at least not in a good way.

Foreshadowing is when you mention things early that turn out to be important later. They should seem appropriate but minor at the time, then eventually turn out to have deeper significance. That can be done just as well in present tense as past. Foreshadowing comes from including the right details, not from the char's hindsight.

Deni · Dec 19, 2008

In my current WIP I'm writing it in first person. The prologue begins in present tense. Basically, my MC is saying, "Here I am. How did I get here? And here's what you need to know before I tell you what happened."

Then in the first official chapter its all in past tense from then on out. At least, until the end. Then the Epilogue will also be in present tense. That's when she'll say, "Welp, that was my story. I hope you liked it."

That's not actually what she says. I'm just giving you an example.

Dave.C.Robinson · Dec 19, 2008

Three points to begin with:

I don't care for first person present tense.

I do keep a copy of Elements of Style on my desk at all times.

I'm not going to advise you not to use first person present tense.

If you do it right I think it could add quite a bit to the story. If I understand you correctly you're going to start in first present, move to an extended flashback in first past, then back to first present up until the character's death and then switch to another POV character.

I'm not completely sure but I think I've seen something similar done in the past and I believe it worked. I'm not sure of your comfort level but you may want to consider writing the killer's sections in third past rather than first past because it may make the transition clearer.

It's certainly doable, but with that kind of change you do want to be very careful not to confuse your reader, and I think making sure it's told clearly is far more important than worrying about tense.

maestrowork · Dec 19, 2008

jclarkdawe said:
THE PICTURE just went through a grueling round of query letter and partial rejections. One reason that I was given by two agents was that first person present is so limiting they weren't interested.

My first novel was in 1st person present. None of the rejections even mentioned anything about the POV and tense -- mostly it was about how the story started too slow, or the protagonist wasn't very likable, etc. I changed the beginning, and it sold. Most of my readers (and reviewers) didn't notice it was 1st present either. Now, I don't mean I'm a good writer; just that, I think, 1st person present is good for something, and apparently it was a good fit for the story I was telling. It has the urgency and intimacy the story requires, and I think it worked for me.

My WIP is in 3rd person past -- because that's what works for THIS story.

POV and tense are literary devices that serve certain purpose, and a writer should examine what works and what doesn't, and one way to do that is to READ A LOT. For example, Fight Club works as 1st present -- so we can do a literary analysis and see why it works. What kind of story is it? And why is 1st present a good choice? Personally, I can't think how the book could have been written any other way, such as 3rd past. I think 1st present is PERFECT for it.

Jerry B. Flory · Dec 19, 2008

I dig writing 1st PP. The hard part is trying to shake loose of it afterward. Writing past tense can get boring and often seems stale, done and done again. 1st PP is like walking around with a camera on your shoulder. That makes it far more risky due to the same problems they have with movies, mostly continuity.
When I first began writing 1st PP it was a challenge to stay with the present tense, now it's a challenge to stay out of it because I love that live action feel and you can move the camera any place you want.

kuwisdelu · Dec 19, 2008

Sounds fine to me.

I've done that before. Though the POV character wasn't killed.

The only part that would throw me is that I usually hate it when another character "picks up" the story when the 1st person narrator dies. But if you've been rotating throughout, it wouldn't phase me, so that works, too.

Woven · Dec 19, 2008

I always stumble around when first reading first person/present tense, but I get used to it by the second or third chapter and am generally fine from there. I could NEVER write it however! So good luck with that.

I think it work though, and the idea is certainly intrigueing. I think it would be interesting if you could simply end the novel mid-sentence.

kuwisdelu · Dec 19, 2008

Woven said:
I think it work though, and the idea is certainly intrigueing. I think it would be interesting if you could simply end the novel mid-sentence.

Kafka did that once. But that's because he died.

I'm still waiting for the end of The Castle, that lazy bastard.

maestrowork · Dec 19, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
The only part that would throw me is that I usually hate it when another character "picks up" the story when the 1st person narrator dies. But if you've been rotating throughout, it wouldn't phase me, so that works, too.

I agree with kuwisdelu. If that final POV has been done in the book, it's okay. But if the entire book is in 1st person, and then it "picks up" at the end with another POV (and 3rd limited), it's jarring and also it seems too "convenient." It may work as an epilogue, but to me, just to switch POV at the end because the narrator dies seems a bit cheesy.

katatonic · Dec 19, 2008

Cheers for everyones answers. Once again, I should have explained things a little better. My MC doesn't die at the end of the novel, but around 2/3 way through.

The novel is told by three characters, all in first person, and usually each chapter is a different POV. When the POV switches from the MC to his killer, we're well acquainted with the killer because he's 1 of the 3 characters in the book.

In response to FennelGiraffe, maybe foreshadowing isn't the right word for it. It's more like reverse foreshadowing (if that even exists). At the beginning (which is the end), when it's in the present we see a few items that don't make sense to be there. But when we get into the "flashback/storytelling" mode, we learn why those item are important.

Closest thing I could think to describe it would be reverse foreshadowing lol. So in otherwords i have no idea.

Dave.C.Robinson · Dec 19, 2008

katatonic said:
Cheers for everyones answers. Once again, I should have explained things a little better. My MC doesn't die at the end of the novel, but around 2/3 way through.

The novel is told by three characters, all in first person, and usually each chapter is a different POV. When the POV switches from the MC to his killer, we're well acquainted with the killer because he's 1 of the 3 characters in the book.

In response to FennelGiraffe, maybe foreshadowing isn't the right word for it. It's more like reverse foreshadowing (if that even exists). At the beginning (which is the end), when it's in the present we see a few items that don't make sense to be there. But when we get into the "flashback/storytelling" mode, we learn why those item are important.

Closest thing I could think to describe it would be reverse foreshadowing lol. So in otherwords i have no idea.

Actually, it's almost a textbook example of foreshadowing.

The reader sees things at the beginning of the book which only make sense later in the book. The key to foreshadowing is not when something occurs in the timeline of the book, but when it occurs from the reader's perspective.

maestrowork · Dec 19, 2008

katatonic said:
At the beginning (which is the end), when it's in the present we see a few items that don't make sense to be there. But when we get into the "flashback/storytelling" mode, we learn why those item are important.

No, that's foreshadowing, or "breadcrumbs." Foreshadows may not be "recognized" until later, but it's still there for a reason, and for the astute readers to "get it." It's still foreshadow, no less.

gothicangel · Dec 20, 2008

katatonic said:
Cheers for everyones answers. Once again, I should have explained things a little better. My MC doesn't die at the end of the novel, but around 2/3 way through.

The novel is told by three characters, all in first person, and usually each chapter is a different POV. When the POV switches from the MC to his killer, we're well acquainted with the killer because he's 1 of the 3 characters in the book.

Closest thing I could think to describe it would be reverse foreshadowing lol. So in otherwords i have no idea.

If the character dies 2/3 of the way through; then I would suggest that the pov character is wrong. If I've read 60,000 words and you do that to me; don't be surprised by the impromptu book burning (and the subsequent 'I'm never buying a book by that author again!').

I write in first person, present. I love that idea of the camera on the shoulder.

maestrowork · Dec 20, 2008

gothicangel said:
If the character dies 2/3 of the way through; then I would suggest that the pov character is wrong. If I've read 60,000 words and you do that to me; don't be surprised by the impromptu book burning (and the subsequent 'I'm never buying a book by that author again!').

I wouldn't say it's wrong, since there are three 1st person narrators. It could work.

First Person Narration & Tenses

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