Suggestions please...I've made a real mess.

Woven · Dec 16, 2008

I completed a novel and began writing the second book as well. After, gosh maybe TWELVE re-writes, I started seeing that perhaps the second book gelled nicely with the first. I was unhappy with a section toward the end of the story and decided to interlace some events from book two . Now I couldn't be more confused. I'm very happy with where my thoughts are going, but I've made a real mess of my manuscript. It's all on the computer and I've color coded it so that black is the original, red is what I've thrown in, purple are random ideas I have for where it's going. But I've changed so much...it's too hard!

I try working on it and manage for about fifteen minutes before throwing my hands up.

If any of you have ever made drastic, ridiculous changes to a once finished story, would you mind telling me how you went about doing it? I need a new method!

scarletpeaches · Dec 16, 2008

This is one of the rare occasions I would recommend outlining, if you're that confused.

Leave it a while, then read through with fresh eyes.

Make notes as you go, writing down main plot points to get them straight in your head.

Then start your rewriting from page one and work straight through, to get the chronology of the novel firmly embedded in your mind.

I have a trunk novel I plan to rewrite next year - but me, being a glutton for punishment and rabidly anti-outline? I'm going to write it out of sequence without outlining.

But it sounds to me like you might benefit from my above suggestion, if only to stop your head exploding.

Red-Green · Dec 16, 2008

I use the document map function to outline in the document. Basically I give each scene and subscene a title that helps me remember what happens in it. I've created a new "Style" called Scene Heading that I set at Heading 1 status. Then I go through and set all my scene titles to the Scene Heading style. This makes them all pop in the document map and I can see what is going on in the story.

Woven · Dec 16, 2008

Redzilla said:
I use the document map function to outline in the document. Basically I give each scene and subscene a title that helps me remember what happens in it. I've created a new "Style" called Scene Heading that I set at Heading 1 status. Then I go through and set all my scene titles to the Scene Heading style. This makes them all pop in the document map and I can see what is going on in the story.

Ooh, I like both your ideas. Scarlet, I'm not an outliner either, but you may be right.

Redzilla, your suggestion sounds perfect. When I first begin a story I do something similar, naming my scenes as I go. I name them random things that makes absolute sense to me.

I can't believe what a mess I've made, but hopefully it will be worth it in the end. I REALLY don't want to have re-write this monster! It's currently 100K words of jumbled up mess!

scarletpeaches · Dec 16, 2008

I wouldn't recommend doing what I did and binning 150k words of a handwritten first draft, even if it was rubbish.

I rewrote it from memory as I mentioned in another thread and it came in at 75k.

But no, the 50% loss was no tragedy. That just shows how much crap there was in there to begin with.

In 2009 I'm going to rewrite it for the eleventy billionth time. The characters will age a few years and move to a difference setting and I'll add on a 'part 2' as well. What was my trunk novel will become 'part one'. It'll probably shrink further still, to around 50k. A third of its original size.

So yeah, sounds like we're in the same boat. But I'm in love with the characters. Have been for 15 years or more. If you feel the same and can't let them go, then work on them. See their story through to the end.

But do so with fresh eyes. I think perhaps you need some distance for a while.

Not 15 years' worth, though.

Claudia Gray · Dec 16, 2008

One thing I do is keep separate documents for the outline, each chapter and then an overall first-draft document that contains all finalized chapters so far. When I am making mid-level changes, I make those first in the separate chapter documents; only after I feel good about the individual chapter do I put it into the overall document. When I realize big changes are necessary, I work first with the outline, then go into the individual chapters, then amend the full draft.

I also a keep a separate "cut sections" file for pieces of writing that I like but either definitely need to go somewhere else or might come in handy later.

Also, I e-mail myself each chapter, and each draft, with the date in the subject line, so that I have those to go back to if I regret later edits -- and that I have copies in case of a future HD crash.

Don't know if any of that is useful, but I thought I would pass it on.

Woven · Dec 16, 2008

scarletpeaches said:
I wouldn't recommend doing what I did and binning 150k words of a handwritten first draft, even if it was rubbish.

I rewrote it from memory as I mentioned in another thread and it came in at 75k.

But no, the 50% loss was no tragedy. That just shows how much crap there was in there to begin with.

In 2009 I'm going to rewrite it for the eleventy billionth time. The characters will age a few years and move to a difference setting and I'll add on a 'part 2' as well. What was my trunk novel will become 'part one'. It'll probably shrink further still, to around 50k. A third of its original size.

So yeah, sounds like we're in the same boat. But I'm in love with the characters. Have been for 15 years or more. If you feel the same and can't let them go, then work on them. See their story through to the end.

But do so with fresh eyes. I think perhaps you need some distance for a while.

Not 15 years' worth, though.

That's the problem...I shelved it for about a year and this is what I came back to!

I have what I think is a "trunk book". It's one I wrote in college, maybe 15 years ago. Yikes! It's just awful, but like you, I love the characters. The characters are good and the basic story is good, but the way I put it all together is just awful. I think about re-writing that one every now and then.

NeuroFizz · Dec 16, 2008

I think the advice given here is good. Even if you don't normally outline, this may be a time when a list of scenes may help define and refine your story arc. It doesn't have to be a detailed outline--it seems you are just having a problem with what to include and in what order, correct?

Also, your top priority should be to write the very best story possible. If that means you have to pull some parts from the second story, do it. There won't be a sequel unless you get this first one right.

Woven · Dec 16, 2008

ClaudiaGray said:
One thing I do is keep separate documents for the outline, each chapter and then an overall first-draft document that contains all finalized chapters so far. When I am making mid-level changes, I make those first in the separate chapter documents; only after I feel good about the individual chapter do I put it into the overall document. When I realize big changes are necessary, I work first with the outline, then go into the individual chapters, then amend the full draft.

I also a keep a separate "cut sections" file for pieces of writing that I like but either definitely need to go somewhere else or might come in handy later.

Also, I e-mail myself each chapter, and each draft, with the date in the subject line, so that I have those to go back to if I regret later edits -- and that I have copies in case of a future HD crash.

Don't know if any of that is useful, but I thought I would pass it on.

Here's a lame question that will prove I am not a professional.

How do you decide whether or not your book is good enough to go through all that trouble?

Woven · Dec 16, 2008

NeuroFizz said:
I think the advice given here is good. Even if you don't normally outline, this may be a time when a list of scenes may help define and refine your story arc. It doesn't have to be a detailed outline--it seems you are just having a problem with what to include and in what order, correct?

Also, your top priority should be to write the very best story possible. If that means you have to pull some parts from the second story, do it. There won't be a sequel unless you get this first one right.

Precisely. I shouldn't have written book 2 yet anyway. I did so only because the story was in my head and I had to get it out. I wrote 100K on that one too in about two months time. Basically my first draft IS my outline. Then I went back and nit-picked book one. That's why I'm pulling from the sequel. I'm thinking there's a real possibility I don't need it.

Jerry B. Flory · Dec 16, 2008

If you're into software there's a tool called ywriter that compartmentalizes scenes, dialogues, whatever. I'm a very messy writer. I don't use color codes, computer functions or, in fact, anything that looks in any way like an organizational tool, because, for me, that looks like work and and work is anathema to me.
I keep it simple.
Write it, cut it, paste it, chop it, keep it, rewrite it.
If I had a mess like what you're talking about, I would start a clean sheet and copy and paste everything I thought worth keeping and work with the substance of the story rather than all the clutter.
I would hate having all of that other stuff around distracting me from the actual words.

Jerry B. Flory · Dec 16, 2008

Woven said:
Precisely. I shouldn't have written book 2 yet anyway. I did so only because the story was in my head and I had to get it out. I wrote 100K on that one too in about two months time. Basically my first draft IS my outline. Then I went back and nit-picked book one. That's why I'm pulling from the sequel. I'm thinking there's a real possibility I don't need it.

I have to present an argument to that.
You write what you write. The voices in your head made ya do it, heheh.
It's not a waste of time, you didn't screw up if you managed to put words down and constructed a story out of them. You need to relax. If you're wound up tighter than a clock-spring then your words will be too.
I challenge you to lay aside your compass, sexton and maps and steer your way by the stars.
You're far too concerned with the trappings and paraphernalia of writing.
Just freaking write.

NeuroFizz · Dec 16, 2008

I'd also suggest you not trash book two. If you have to take some of it to make book one shine, you still have the makings of another story. You may find that tweaking book one will give new direction to book two, and you are already well on with it. But get after book one and finish it off first.

scribbler1382 · Dec 16, 2008

Get away from the notion that when you're done writing a first draft a finished novel will appear whole and complete before your eyes. That's step one. In fact, it's the easy step. Producing a finished, polished, publishable manuscript is hard. I mean frickin' HARD. It's work, and lots of it. If you finish a draft and you look down and say "Man, this needs a lot of work", then you're doing things right. It's when you look down at that mess and say "this is great!" and you put it in an envelope as-is that you're in trouble.

BTW, your mixing of two works is why I use Dropbox. It lets me go back to any previous version on the chance I'll wake up one morning open my book and say "Wow, I've been on crack for the past two weeks!"

JamieFord · Dec 16, 2008

Woven said:
How do you decide whether or not your book is good enough to go through all that trouble?

Ask yourself, "Is this a book I would buy? Is this a book I would read? And if so, does it flow in a way that won't let me put it down?" It's a hard one to honestly answer. I shelved my first book after 4 rewrites because my answers weren't very positive. But my next book sold at auction, so those earlier words were NOT wasted.

agentelle · Dec 16, 2008

I've never completed an entire novel (yet!) so this probably won't be of any help whatosever. But I'm about halfway through my novel and only recently decided to make some big changes that would change the book entirely. Immediately I thought, 'oh noes! Now I have to start ALL OVER AGAIN!' But I decided against it and am now going to just write the book as I had originally planned and work on the major rewrite later.

I agree with the others; put it aside for a while before you attempt a rewrite. That way, you won't be irritated by it, and you will get a new look at it.

Anstice80 · Dec 16, 2008

I agree with the suggestion of outlining. I rarely outline before I've finished the initial write on an WIP. I use the outline to see if it's in any logical order, or if I'm missing explanations. It makes the editing a bit easier on me.

I've done the same thing you're talking about, though, many times. I'm currently working on a rewrite of a novel I finished about 3 years ago, and just now figured out what could help fix the problems I created for myself.

Dave.C.Robinson · Dec 16, 2008

I've done the fifteen year later rewrite from memory thing - and it really did improve the story.

I'd second yWriter and to be honest I don't know that all the colors are helping you. Just turn on track changes in Word (if that's what you're using) and then you can see what's what without being overwhelmed.

"Final Showing Markup" will put all your changes into relief - and hiding the markup will let you see what you currently have and work on it as a whole.

Claudia Gray · Dec 16, 2008

Woven said:
Here's a lame question that will prove I am not a professional.

How do you decide whether or not your book is good enough to go through all that trouble?

I think this differs for everybody -- and nobody is always right -- but I try to make this determination around the outline stage. For me, at that point, I've spent a few months with the material, know my main emotional beats and the main thrust of my ending, so by that point, I have a good idea what I'm working with. I ask myself if it seems exciting and fun, and whether I am personally jazzed up about writing it. If I can't wait to write it -- just so I can see it -- that's a good enough sign for me.

Teena · Dec 16, 2008

ClaudiaGray said:
I also a keep a separate "cut sections" file for pieces of writing that I like but either definitely need to go somewhere else or might come in handy later.

I do this as well. If something isn't working but could later on, or I just like the piece, put it in a pieces file.

Get all those purple ones out for a start! They are cluttering up your MS. Put them in a cut pieces file and go back to them as needed. Then copy (don't cut) the section where you have black (old) and red (new) and paste it to a new page. Re-read it and edit. That way you haven't touched the original MS, but you can feel free to edit without concern.

Too many colors, too many mixes, can make it seem overwhelming. Work with it in small pieces.

Tirjasdyn · Dec 16, 2008

Woven said:
Here's a lame question that will prove I am not a professional.

How do you decide whether or not your book is good enough to go through all that trouble?

Do you like it?

If yes, then it's worth it.

If not, stop torturing yourself.

I'm going to second outlining (we're up to three this week folks), and using ywriter. Once you have everything laid out in scenes you can then play in the story line function and drag n drop scenes around till your hearts content. You can also add notes to scene in a separate place so their handy and not muddying up the water.

You can do the same thing with note cards. If your not so technically inclined.

Feathers · Dec 16, 2008

I had an experience once that got me similarly messed up; every time I changed one event, I had to change a slew of others, and I got so enormously confused shuffling everything around. So I would do two things: print out your novel and paperclip each chapter together, so you can visually get an idea of what is going where.

Second thing, I would storyboard. All you do is scribble down the gist of a scene or chapter on it's own Stick-it note, and then paste all the notes on a wall or board, in the order that they appear. This is incredibly helpful, because you get a big-picture view of your novel that you can manipulate with ease. (And if you use multiple POV's, you can color-code which scenes/chapters belong to which character.)

How do you decide whether or not your book is good enough to go through all that trouble?

I have killed and resurrected the same stories over and over for years. I learned that if I trunk a story and it comes back repeatedly, across projects, and long after I thought it was dead, I might want to look at it again. And I feel like a kamikaze sometimes, rewriting and revising and trying to make this work. It's not worth it unless you're in love with it - the characters, the main premise - and even when you're in love with it, you have to realize whether it's working or not. If you're married to this idea that is never going to work, you either have to give it up, or change it so it *does* work.

So the key is, if you love it, work on it. If if still doesn't work, then change it. If it won't be changed, trunk it.

BTW, don't feel like an amateur for asking that question

All writers struggle with it. Why do you think some people work on novels for 10 years that they end up trunking?

Good luck. That chopped-up stage is horrible.
-Feathers

Gillhoughly · Dec 16, 2008

When you've done three full rewrites of a book and 25 re-writes of its first chapter--on a MANUAL typewriter, then you can get insane.

For now, the problem isn't your writing, but organizing the writing. My brain runs faster than I can type, so it's too easy for a MS to get knotted up when ideas flood in.

Print out what you have. You will print separate files.

Purple stuff first. Copy and paste these notes, save in a separate file window. As you get brainstorms put them in THAT file, not your main book file.

This will keep you from second-guessing all the time. Trust me, I know ALL about that! You make a note, then will either use or not use it. Keep It Simple.

Separately:

Print black stuff.

Print red stuff.

Open a shiny NEW file, and PHYSICALLY TYPE THE BOOK all over again, USING ONLY what you want from the black and the red pages.

Purple notes are no longer to be wedged into the main manuscript. They are in their own file forever from now on.

At some point you'll get tired of the typing and will copy and paste, but you'll have figured what's important AND it will all be the SAME COLOR.

But I'd recommend typing the whole thing. As you go, cool stuff will happen in your brain and you'll be typing in better words.

As you incorporate a purple idea, delete or cross a line through it.

When you have to re-type instead of copy and paste, you learn very fast what's worth keeping and what to cut.

Writing is like learning to play the piano--the more you practice, the better you get. Retyping a whole book--and on a computer it's a snap--is really GOOD practice.

Sweetleaf · Dec 16, 2008

My goodness you're good Gillhoughly!

I'm totally following your advice from now on. I've got 2 manuscripts with multicoloured notes all over them too.

Bo Sullivan · Dec 16, 2008

Sounds like you need to do a complete re-write from memory. :rant:

Suggestions please...I've made a real mess.

Woven

scarletpeaches

Red-Green

KoalaKoalaKoala!

Woven

scarletpeaches

Claudia Gray

Woven

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Woven

Woven

Jerry B. Flory

under the Milky Way

Jerry B. Flory

under the Milky Way

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

scribbler1382

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

JamieFord

giving resonant directions

agentelle

Anstice80

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

Claudia Gray

Teena

Bennie's Mom

Tirjasdyn

Outline Maven

Feathers

emerging from the writing cave

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Sweetleaf

Momentary lapse of reason

Bo Sullivan