Just An Opinion

Steppe said:

Think of it. If there is some truth to this opinion of mine, we were all growing up to be poets, but the society decided they wanted us to write prose.

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I think you're probably correct.
Schooling and then working environments (writing reports etc.) also play a part in forming writing styles that actually inhibit the poet in ourselves.

that's very interesting. schooling can have a detrimental effect on creativity, initiative and sometimes character. i never thought of it like that though, its something i might look further into. i suddenly feel compelled to buy the poetry of emily dickinson.

I spent the first half of my life learning,
and the second half of my life unlearning.
Fortunately I was never too good of a student,
so I don't have much to unlearn ;-)

I think in all aspects of are lives, we make concessions to gain acceptance of our peers, and individuality is sacrificed on the alter of civilization. Only a select few, usually labeled mad while still alive, maintain an element of themselves to critical acclaim in death. Vangoh would be a good example of this.So it only stands to reason that you would be correct that many a writer to be, was made into another carbon copy to suit the worlds expectations.

What a great point. The language of children. And since we all go through childhood, no matter how deeply we bury the experience, the language of childhood remains a common language. So when poets tap it, they communicate most broadly? It's a contrary idea to poetry as elitist.

I am not a very academic or knowledgable person, but I do have an opinion. I believe that what "ruined" poetry is the birth of the industrial age.

I do think that our actual life experiences are the bedrock of our cultural expressions. When the world was more based on spiritual beliefs, that was what gave paramount influence to culture.

When agression and war was idealized, we can see the influence. When seeking ideal beauty, we see the quest withn all modes of expression.

When the world was based on an agrarian society we pictured those experiences.

Look at the music, art and literature of today; does it not reflect the sterility of life that we all feel and reflect on?

Are we at the end of an age? What will be the inspiration of tomorrow if no one believes there is a tomorrow?

I think it's interesting that the Psalms in the scriptures were written as poetry and songs. Why are there no epic poems of today?

I disagree, Steppe, because you're forgetting those same teachers are the ones who also taught us "see jane run."

It's a matter of mastery.

You start with the basic building blocks. Noun. Verb. Then you add elements until you've got the entire lingual construction kit. Then you master the use of each tool on your belt.

Once you know this, you can confidently begin removing tools until you have only the ones you need to build the structure you've chosen.

I don't believe Emily Dickenson used basic language elements because they were the only tools she had available.

As a corollary... MacGuyver was able to build the items he needed with the objects around him because he already knew how to build them with the objects normally used.

In other words, I would much rather trust a carpenter who knows how to use a jigsaw but chooses against using it because it's not necessary, than trust the carpenter who wasn't aware that the jigsaw was an option at all.

I also think -- and I mean no disrespect here, because I really appreciate both your poetry, and the efforts you take to encourage short- and experimental-form poems -- that this conversation is a result of you looking for justification and/or evidence that the short form is a superior poetry form, and I do not hold to that.

In other words... Excellent debate subject, friend!

I hold a firm belief that growing up is a process of forgetting, not learning. You are born filled with knowledge. The rot teachings you are forced to live through as a child is the process that chisels everything else away. To live like a child, besides being difficult to impossible, is what we should all strive to do. It is our natural skin. See the world through a child's eyes and you get a better grasp at poety. Long or short, epic or minimalist...who gives a shit.

There is a huge difference between using the words of children to express the thoughts of children and using the words of children to express the thoughts of adults. And unlearning or forgetting won't get a person very far toward the latter.

And to head off any education bashing, too many people mistake the value of that education as centering on how much of the subject matter is retained and how much of it impacts their eventual chosen pursuits. The real lessons in a formal education are directed at what the individual learns about him/herself while in an environment of challenge and creativity. A person may never use a bit of calculus in his/her after-school life, but the logical thoughts processes of mathematics may continue to play out (unconsciously) by that person until his/her last breath.

I would never attack education. I'm speaking really of 'wild eyed wonder'.

I understand, Kevin. What you've expressed is what I call insatiable curiosity, and it's the greatest quality I can look for in a potential grad student. But we do gain lots of tools and perspectives that change the way we look at the world, even though they don't change the width of our eyes or the depth of our curiosity. I think it takes some maturity to express the thoughts of an adult in child-like words while still having it resonate with other adults. And it goes well beyond any fondness for the simplicity of foregone times. That can be one of those tools, but its use is still honed through practice and (yes) learning.

Sorry. I have Peter Pan complex. I try not to grip too much to this world, as I know it doesn't matter much in the big picture. Though, that is a bit of an inaccurate way to describe it because I also want to know everything about it. I just don't want to be tarnished by it. I don't really believe in this reality, to tell you the truth.

so long as one is able to get down on paper what they feel in their heads and hearts, and do likewise for the characters they create, it really doesn't matter what approach is taken. I have my own ways of doing things and all of you have yours and I think the thing to do is to discuss our different approaches and seek to learn from one another and most importantly encourage each other to to continue on in the individual routes we're taking, because when you come right down to it there is no ultimate right or wrong way to breathe life into HP Deskjet ink. Good luck fellow comrades. See you on the shelves

Rousseau wrote, "Man is born free, yet everywhere he is in chains". I disagree ... vehemently.

Have you ever met a child whose parents didn't apply discipline for fear of stifling his creativity? What you tend to get is a spoiled brat just like all the other little spoiled brats, rather than an original shining genius. I think that (aside from a few actual geniuses) human creativity flourishes best within bounds, when it has something to react to, to push against. There's a reason so many of our great poems are in strict forms, from minimalism to sonnet or villanelle, or that so many new schools of every sort of art were founded largely in reaction to the constraint of the previous one.

I believe we need conventions and constraints. The former save us mental energy: if you follow conventions for the things that don't matter, you preserve your energy and creativity for the things that do - like a pilot practicing until emergency landings become routine, so that she can take care of the routine things routinely while turning her attention to checking all the possible ways to fix the emergency. Otherwise we'd be in the position of having to invent a new way to say *everything*, instead of only inventing new ways to express new ideas or viewpoints.

And I believe we need constraints, both to exercise our ingenuity in learning to work within them and in testing our strength, when we burst out.