Profanity...

[CJWilkes]

O.k. I have tried this somewhere else and it was very successful... Fun and interesting. Let's try it here.

I was told by one of my history teachers that profanity is a sign of a weak mind. It is used for lack of anything better to say.

Personally, I do not like to read much profanity if any... especially the F bomb. I do not write using profanity either, that is me.

What are your opinions on profanity in your books or in the books you read.

[three seven]

There's a long discussion on this subject here. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8157)

[CJWilkes]

Thanks.... I had not seen it. I am new here :)

[Azure Skye]

I have no problem with reading or using profanity; however, moderation in all things and all that rot.

[maestrowork]

No f***ing way. Bull-***ing-s***.

[Maryn]

Real people undergoing life-altering events swear. When I read a novel in which there's no swearing, it feels bland and sanitized and false. Not that every character would or should use strong language liberally within their dialogue, but nearly every novel has a climax during which realistic characters would not self-edit.

It's a pretty weird individual who doesn't use strong language in the heat of argument, during a crisis, or when suffering a tragic loss.

Maryn, known to use strong language at such times

[fallenangelwriter]

I, personally do not use much fop any profanity in my books.

this is partially because i find it distateful, and partly because many of my characters (angels, kings, priests, pious villagers) probably wouldn't swear, (well, maybe the kings...) and if a book contains too much swearing i sometimes put it down.

but even when i discard a book for profanity, it's not because i find it offensive or immoral- just unpleasant. and a few profanity-riddled stories have been gripping enouhg to keep me reading.

i think writers using profanity excessively need to be aware that they may lose some readers, but i wouldn't consider them to be doing anything wrong. whatever works for thewm personally, if people want to read it, it's fine with me.

[Richard]

I have no problem with profanity if the characters would naturally swear - although it can get ridiculous. I reviewed a book called Quake for SFX a few months ago, and about half-way through I did a test. You cannot open that book on a random spread without running into ****ing, ****. ****ed or some other variant thereof. It's practically a drinking game.

[veinglory]

Indeed, if the characters in that setting would swear that is what I would write.

[aruna]

Real people undergoing life-altering events swear. When I read a novel in which there's no swearing, it feels bland and sanitized and false. Not that every character would or should use strong language liberally within their dialogue, but nearly every novel has a climax during which realistic characters would not self-edit.

It's a pretty weird individual who doesn't use strong language in the heat of argument, during a crisis, or when suffering a tragic loss.



I don't agree; this seems to be a very homogenous view of humankind.

I lived in India for a long time and people there deal with the most horrendous crises without strong language, and they are certainly not weird. They have other ways of reacting to the bad stuff. So do many other people. Our writing, I believe, should refect the kind of people we write about. It would be as unnatural to make an Indian swear, as to censor the language as a typical modern-day American.

I persoanlly think variety is the spice of writing. I don't like profanity and most of my characters are the type who wouldn't use it, which I don't think detracts from their strength. But in my last novel, I had my main character, at a moment of high drama, say "F*** you." This was in keeping with her character and the situation, but I'd never had her swear before. I believe that, because the word is so rare in the novel, in fact non-existant before then, it is all the more effective. Overuse of F-words removes any shock effect they might have. I think that even if the characters are the swearing type, less is more.

[pianoman5]

I'm always torn on this issue.

On the one hand, one of our writerly duties is to faithfully portray the human condition. There are many cultural variations, of course, and whereas foul and vituperative language may be uncommon in the subcontinent, it's all too familiar in a typical western setting. But then, it's equally uncommon for 100 English people to be trampled to death by a well-spoken mob.

On the other hand, I believe another of our writerly duties is to 'hold the line' on language and slow down the rate at which it is debased and cheapened by lowest-common-denominator usage.

Wherever appropriate, I prefer to give my characters more thoughtful lines of withering invective. But sometimes, only "F*** you" will do. It has an economical and guttural directness for which English-speaking mankind has yet found no potent substitute.

CJ Wilkes, if your history teacher believes that profanity is "the sign of a weak mind", he really ought to get out more. He should know better than most that many of the great and the good of history have been legendary blasphemers.

[black winged fighter]

I have a history teacher who swears. One of the most intelligent and well-spoken people I know, so there goes that theory...

[Richard]

It's like those people who say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Yeah. They're really worth listening to.

[Maryn]

aruna, perhaps I should have qualified my statement. I am not well-traveled, so my characters tend to be American and Canadian, where, as you know, strong language under stress is the norm.

I agree that having a character who does not swear do so at her breaking point can be powerful indeed. That single f-word carried a huge impact, I bet!

Maryn

[maestrowork]

As writers we need to think of two things: who are our characters, and who are our readers? You do need to be true to your characters, but at the same time, you also need to take care of your target readers. Obviously, if you write a gangster story for 7th graders, you have a problem.

Don't worry about "losing readers" though. If you write an adult novel about detectives and criminals who swear, your target audience is probably not someone who despise any kind of swear words. But if you want to attract the widest audience possible (say a PG-rated book so everyone in the family can enjoy), then you do need to choose the right story and characters who don't swear...

[LightShadow]

I leave out hardcore profanity, and reserve lighter profanity for only certain characters. In other words, I have no room for f***, or profanity associated with genitalia. However, son of a b..... and other more acceptable profanity that sometimes even pops up on television seems to fit my more tenacious characters. Okay, somewhere, someone is going to scoff at my term "hardcore profanity" saying that all bad words are bad. You're right, but I'm thinking about readers. Some words offend more people than others, so I keep away from the more offensive ones. I write adult fiction, so I can get away with it. I doubt J.K. Rowling uses anything more offensive than "wicked" although "crap" I think found its way in once or twice.

[MadScientistMatt]

Well, there are some characters who definitely demonstrate using profanity as a sign of not enough brains. There was one guy I knew in high school who reportedly gave the baseball team a pep talk where practically every third word was the F word. In some cases, somebody might use a profanity because they can't think of a better way to phrase something. One scene that comes to mind is a line from "Boondock Saints" where a character delivers a line about a dozen words long where more than half of them are varients on the F word.

On the other hand, there are also some highly literate uses of vulgar language. How many people here have read Dante's Inferno, particularly the Ciardi translation? This might be one of the best examples of how sometimes four letter words can be the best choice. I don't think the description of the river of sewage would have worked without using the language they did.

When writing a book, though, the author will have several things to consider. Profanity in the narrative usually seems very out of place unless the story is told in first person with a foul-mouthed protagonist. So usually the only place an author would want to use profanity is in dialog as a means of characterization. If your characters were real people, consider whether they would use profanity in the situations you put them into. If so, depending on the POV you are using, it may still be possible to convey that the character responded with obscene language without actually saying what was said.

[rich]

I know a guy, who's now considered in the parlance of his business, "a made man." I seldom run into him anymore--weddings/wakes, mainly--but he always used "freakin'" instead of "f u c k i n g." I figure it was probably his mother's influence.

Once, I was complimented by somebody I respected. He said, "You know, you use the word 'f u c k' very judiciously, when it means something."

[pepperlandgirl]

I guess I'm just uncouth. I like...no love...profanity, sex, drinking, smoking, and other "unsavory" things, and my characters tend to love profanity, sex, drinking, smoking and other "unsavory" things.

But the thing is, my characters will tell me if they need to swear. I have some who never would dream of it (like my sister who won't even say hell, she uses that ol' Utahn stand-by "heck") and I have some who can't get through a sentence without dropping two F-bombs. It's just the way they are, the way they think, the way they express themselves.

I personally have a mouth like a sailor. Except when I'm at school or work. But the rest of the time? It sounds like I'm on shoreleave.

[CJWilkes]

In my world people rarely swear. Not even hell. Sure there are a few, but it is not like living in NY, AZ, NJ,...or other places. The people are not weird, they just don't use profanity. We have intelligent and not so intelligent people here too. I think it all comes down to personal preferences and targeted audiences as mentioned above.

One of my very favorite authors, Anita Stansfield, does not use profanity and can deliver amazing stories.

I think if you can write a story and move a person with profanity...then it would be interesting to see or be challenged in writing a book with no profanity. Just a thought.

Is it a way of life? For me no profanity is a way of life... and yes I dislike reading exess amounts of it in any book. Have I read a book that contained profanity... Yes, some I enjoyed and others just did not sit well with me. I will not read extreme profanity using authors books - I just do not enjoy it, but that is just me :)

[veinglory]

It is part of a way of life, but assuming (as previously mentioned) that you can stop it to show respect in church, school and around children I don't see it as a bad thing. I don't see why you would try to 'not swear' if there was no need to and it was not your way of writing. Profanity can be part of a book with particular content for a particular audience and its presence or absence is completely unrelated to the quality of the piece.

Swearing can be seen as objectively bad if you are religious and it is blasphemy, or you assume it is part of the relentless moral decline each generation sees in the next--but otherwise it's just a matter of vocabulary.

[CJWilkes]

It is part of a way of life, but assuming (as previously mentioned) that you can stop it to show respect in church, school and around children I don't see it as a bad thing. I don't see why you would try to 'not swear' if there was no need to and it was not your way of writing. Profanity can be part of a book with particular content for a particular audience and its presence or absence is completely unrelated to the quality of the piece.

Swearing can be seen as objectively bad if you are religious and it is blasphemy, or you assume it is part of the relentless moral decline each generation sees in the next--but otherwise it's just a matter of vocabulary.
I agree wholeheartedly with you! :)

[LightShadow]

Swearing is like putting the word "very" in front of everything. It is not necessary, and if shows bad form. However, in this society, it is becoming more and more acceptable, so it is often acceptable for certain characters. I would never swear in narration, and I don't use F... or Sh.. often at all, because those words take away from what's being said, unless the shock is what you are looking for. It has nothing to do with religion, it's just that most readers deal with profanity all day on the job or whatever, and the whole point of reading is to take a break from all of that. Besides, profanity should be used like anything else: in moderation!

[KTC]

Some F***ing people are so archaic they squeak! Smart people throw the F-shot around too. Tell your teacher he's a f***ing moron! J**sus Focking Ch*ist. Tell him he's wrong at the very least. People are people. F*ck the puritanical masses. F*ck them all to pieces!!!

[LightShadow]

Some F***ing people are so archaic they squeak! Smart people throw the F-shot around too. Tell your teacher he's a f***ing moron! J**sus Focking Ch*ist. Tell him he's wrong at the very least. People are people. F*ck the puritanical masses. F*ck them all to pieces!!!It has nothing to do with achaism, it's all about class. Smart people, educated people, whatever. Most of the people with the most education that I know are complete morons because they can't think for themselves. In some lines of writing I am sure F*** is an acceptable word, but most people don't want to hear it thrown around. Myself, I don't mind it on rare occasions, like on the construction job. Otherwise, I have no use for it. It has nothing to do with intelligence, it's just not necessary. One of E.B. White's rules is to omit unnecessary words, and F***is usually one of them.

[pepperlandgirl]

In my world people rarely swear. Not even hell. Sure there are a few, but it is not like living in NY, AZ, NJ,...or other places. The people are not weird, they just don't use profanity. We have intelligent and not so intelligent people here too. I think it all comes down to personal preferences and targeted audiences as mentioned above.

One of my very favorite authors, Anita Stansfield, does not use profanity and can deliver amazing stories.

I think if you can write a story and move a person with profanity...then it would be interesting to see or be challenged in writing a book with no profanity. Just a thought.

Is it a way of life? For me no profanity is a way of life... and yes I dislike reading exess amounts of it in any book. Have I read a book that contained profanity... Yes, some I enjoyed and others just did not sit well with me. I will not read extreme profanity using authors books - I just do not enjoy it, but that is just me :)

CJ, I noticed you are from Orem. I'm from Utah as well. I was raised in Kamas. I'm sure you've at least driven through my hometown once or twice. Maybe you've even been to the Oakley 4th of July Rodeo! So please, understand, I'm not calling you a liar, but I am saying that I'm certain people in your world swear.

I grew up in that world. And I learned profanity somewhere. I was quite the expert swearer before I ever reached California.

I firmly believe it's not the actual words that are the problem. If I hit my thumb and scream, "F U C K!" or I scream, "FUDGE!" you'll get my meaning either way. I don't think f*ck is in any way meaningfully different from "Fudge." In the context, they serve the exact same purpose. The English language has what...1/2 million words? That's because sometimes one word doesn't work as well as another, and you need variety. Personally, I would scream F*CK if I hurt my thumb, and my sister, currently attending BYU, is likely to scream FUDGE. Like I said, I don't see a difference. Two pieces of vocabulary expressing the same emotion.

What's my point? I'm certain you know people who say "heck" as in "Oh my heck!" or "Oh my freakin' heck!" I'm certain you know people who say "Fudge." It's been awhile, so I can't remember all the other odd Utah idioms, but there are dozens of them. Are the dozens of idioms any better than the simple, "f*ck," "damn," 'hell," and "****"? Why? Because those handful of words are said to be "dirty" but what they're designed to express still needs an outlet. So we get idioms and hybrids.

Finally, sweeping generalizations will never work. Now I know people swear in Utah. I know how they swear. I've heard it. Some people use the "profane" words and some people use "idioms" but they do swear. Saying they don't swear in your world so nobody needs to swear in novels is a bit disingenenuous. The vocabulary may be different, but I maintain it's not a difference of kind.

I further maintain that like "was", adverbs, passive voice, etc, they are all tools in a writer's toolbox and absolutely should be used if warranted. I don't think anybody should be wary or any word for any reason, because as writers, they're are more precious tools.

[CJWilkes]

CJ, I noticed you are from Orem. I'm from Utah as well. I was raised in Kamas. I'm sure you've at least driven through my hometown once or twice. Maybe you've even been to the Oakley 4th of July Rodeo! So please, understand, I'm not calling you a liar, but I am saying that I'm certain people in your world swear.

I grew up in that world. And I learned profanity somewhere. I was quite the expert swearer before I ever reached California.

I firmly believe it's not the actual words that are the problem. If I hit my thumb and scream, "F U C K!" or I scream, "FUDGE!" you'll get my meaning either way. I don't think f*ck is in any way meaningfully different from "Fudge." In the context, they serve the exact same purpose. The English language has what...1/2 million words? That's because sometimes one word doesn't work as well as another, and you need variety. Personally, I would scream F*CK if I hurt my thumb, and my sister, currently attending BYU, is likely to scream FUDGE. Like I said, I don't see a difference. Two pieces of vocabulary expressing the same emotion.

What's my point? I'm certain you know people who say "heck" as in "Oh my heck!" or "Oh my freakin' heck!" I'm certain you know people who say "Fudge." It's been awhile, so I can't remember all the other odd Utah idioms, but there are dozens of them. Are the dozens of idioms any better than the simple, "f*ck," "damn," 'hell," and "****"? Why? Because those handful of words are said to be "dirty" but what they're designed to express still needs an outlet. So we get idioms and hybrids.

Finally, sweeping generalizations will never work. Now I know people swear in Utah. I know how they swear. I've heard it. Some people use the "profane" words and some people use "idioms" but they do swear. Saying they don't swear in your world so nobody needs to swear in novels is a bit disingenenuous. The vocabulary may be different, but I maintain it's not a difference of kind.

I further maintain that like "was", adverbs, passive voice, etc, they are all tools in a writer's toolbox and absolutely should be used if warranted. I don't think anybody should be wary or any word for any reason, because as writers, they're are more precious tools.
If you noticed in the first few words I wrote that people "rarely" swore. It would be a lie to say they didn't. In fact I have sworn too, but try to keep it at a very minimum and am not proud of it. I don't like the sound of it and I rarely like to hear it. I have to admit that some people are just plain out better at it than others which explains them sounding better when they do it. Utah has many people, I am sure, that swear - but many choose not to. As I said before, it is not like living in other areas of the world where swearing is more prevalent. I think you could say that is true. I don't know, but different parts of Utah have different qualities and social attitudes just like anywhere else.

For me, I choose to surround myself with people who do not swear more than myself :)
I try not too... but it is all my own choosing and belief. I don't like to hear it, or read it... but I don't judge others that choose to for themselves. It all comes to a matter of prefferences. Analogy: I eat certain parts of the chicken, such as the breat (white meat) or legs (darker meat.) That is my choosing. Now my friend married someone from Trinidad who loves to eat curried chicken feet. To me, that would have been thrown away as garbage, not suitable to eat. Just goes to show that one mans garbage could be another mans meal. - For me profanity is not necessary nor desired and obviously there are others that thrive off of it. To all their own. It is just interesting to view each persons differences.

I did not think you were calling me a liar, just that you missunderstood what I was saying. I am not prudish, nor a molly or jack mormon. I am LDS and I have my beliefs... but I do not consider myself above anyone else or their beliefs, although I do know people like that too. I just say it how I see or feel it.

:)

[LightShadow]

It comes down to this: Will the profanity make your work a better novel, or your character more understood, etc. If not, don't add it. If it adds to the character or such, add it. Simple.

[CJWilkes]

It comes down to this: Will the profanity make your work a better novel, or your character more understood, etc. If not, don't add it. If it adds to the character or such, add it. Simple.
True... but I also think that it has to do with the audience you are trying to attract :)

[LightShadow]

True... but I also think that it has to do with the audience you are trying to attract :)Obviously. I think that is a given. In most cases, mainstream adult fiction and all of the little sub-genres fit. Christian fiction and childrens/adolesent/teen fiction would not be a suitable platform for profanity. And when it can be used, I still think the rule of moderation applies.