secondary character narration

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

I'm working on my new WIP, and just was not entirely pleased with third person for it. I've been thinking on it for a while - how to engage deeper into the story and thought a secondary character could tell the story better than the anonymous narrator of third person POV could - in short, I'm creating my very own Nick Carraway.
It feels like the right thing to do, and I'm spending my lunch hour playing with the character's voice in relation to the main character and his plot.

I've not done this before. Any advice? Any cautions?

Nateskate · Nov 25, 2008

Stew21 said:
I'm working on my new WIP, and just was not entirely pleased with third person for it. I've been thinking on it for a while - how to engage deeper into the story and thought a secondary character could tell the story better than the anonymous narrator of third person POV could - in short, I'm creating my very own Nick Carraway.
It feels like the right thing to do, and I'm spending my lunch hour playing with the character's voice in relation to the main character and his plot.

I've not done this before. Any advice? Any cautions?

Hi Stew. It's hard for me to answer without seeing a sample. POVs can be made to work. But I do like the idea of creating a host of interesting side characters.

I'm an odd writer, as I don't see POV as a lockbox, where we pick one and shove the rest under the table. Having a POV is a tool only, to keep the story from getting muddy with confusion and lacking of tension. I'd compare mixing things up to the Beatle's "Day in the Life" as an example of artistic freedom stretches what boundaries say can work. Of course, it takes more work to gracefully dance along the edges of POV.

I stay mostly in the realm of third person past tense. But it's not the voice that makes the tension, it's creating constant action as a frame for the voice. It's balancing narrative and dialogue.

In my own story, whenever I see things Bog down, this is where I begin to change the tonal balance, switching narrative to dialogue, or adding action to keep the story flowing.

Either way, hope it works out.

RJK · Nov 25, 2008

I would find it extremely difficult to restrict the entire novel to one POV, whether it was the MC or a secondary character. If you use a secondary character, he'd have to be literally joined at the hip to your MC, to see everything that happens.

I write in 3rd person and switch PsOV when necessary to move the story forward. I'm sure it can be done using one POV, but it's beyond my talent.

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

The entire book The Great Gatsby is secondary character narration (and Nick Carraway was not joined at Jay Gatsby's hip).
My last novel was entirely first person POV narration.

I guess I don't understand why you believe just using one POV isn't possible.

maestrowork · Nov 25, 2008

Why not do it and see? There are limitations, of course -- first, it's first person, then it's a secondary character. But it can also be fun -- by giving a "real" narrator who has his own voice, but provide a 3rd person feel (you CAN, for example, dip into the characters' heads as long as it's understood how the narrator knew about these things).

Jake Barnes · Nov 25, 2008

A first person narrator is the main character of any story. Nick Carraway is the main character of The Great Gatsby, not Gatsby.

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

thanks Ray.
I think the limitations will make it challenging, but also fun. It'll be good exercise if nothing else.
I believe the "dip into the character's heads" thing can be accomplished, provided the right explanation/vehicle is used for it. Those are going to be the most difficult pieces. And the voice has to be solid and unique to work. The narrator would have the ability to make judgments and would possibly have a motive or philosophy or higher story arc of his own, or purpose in the telling that is relevant to the main story. Lots to think about.
I have a couple of details to work through for this character/narrator, and then I think I will try it.

Any other cautions or advice are very welcome.This is unmapped territory for me.

maestrowork · Nov 25, 2008

Try it for a chapter and post it on SYW.

I thought about doing that with my WIP, too -- I have sort of a secondary narrator I could have used, but then I decided I'd just keep it 3rd limited.

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

Jake Barnes said:
A first person narrator is the main character of any story. Nick Carraway is the main character of The Great Gatsby, not Gatsby.

ah, well, I've always understood Gatsby as the protagonist of the story and Nick as the narrator.

Stunted · Nov 25, 2008

If I were you, I'd be cautious about trying to insert a character like that. Nick really was intimately part of the plot. Even though a lot of the things happening were happening because of him, they could not have happened without him.

So trying to make a character like that suddenly be there might be dicey. There might be a danger of making him randomly in the middle of scenes where he wouldn't realistically be, hearing rumors about things which he wouldn't realistically hear about, or not really have a life outside your story.

But if you could make it work, it could be awesome. So good luck!!

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

Stunted said:
If I were you, I'd be cautious about trying to insert a character like that. Nick really was intimately part of the plot. Even though a lot of the things happening were happening because of him, they could not have happened without him.

So trying to make a character like that suddenly be there might be dicey. There might be a danger of making him randomly in the middle of scenes where he wouldn't realistically be, hearing rumors about things which he wouldn't realistically hear about, or not really have a life outside your story.

But if you could make it work, it could be awesome. So good luck!!

Oh definitely. The narrator would absolutely have to be an integral part of the story and wouldn't be randomly inserted into scenes or have access to knowledge without a good reason for it.
Thanks for the input!

FennelGiraffe · Nov 25, 2008

Stew21 said:
The entire book The Great Gatsby is secondary character narration (and Nick Carraway was not joined at Jay Gatsby's hip).

Also see Dr. Watson in the Sherlock Holmes stories and Archie Goodwin in the Nero Wolfe books.

Stew21 said:
I guess I don't understand why you believe just using one POV isn't possible.

Me, either.

Jake Barnes said:
A first person narrator is the main character of any story.

There are hairs which can be split over the distinctions among a main character, a protagonist, and a narrator, first-person or otherwise.

Jake Barnes said:
Nick Carraway is the main character of The Great Gatsby, not Gatsby.

A lot of ink has been spilled arguing about that.

Kitty Pryde · Nov 25, 2008

Jake Barnes said:
A first person narrator is the main character of any story. Nick Carraway is the main character of The Great Gatsby, not Gatsby.

Nah, Gatsby is the MC and Nick is the narrator. Gatsby is huge, larger than life, and Nick is caught up in his wake.

The narrator is often not the MC. For an easier example, The "A Series of Unfortunate Events" are narrated by Lemony Snicket, a fake author invented by the actual author, Daniel Handler. I believe he barely even appears in the stories at all! Or, is Watson the MC of the Sherlock Holmes stories just because he's the narrator? I think that he is not.

ETA: FennelGiraffe beat me to it!

Anyway, I think Nick works as a narrator, even though he doesn't directly observe everything that happens, is that he is narrating well after the action takes place, after he has had time to learn everybody's version of the story, and put his own spin on it. If he was narrating in present tense or immediate past tense, it wouldn't work, because he wouldn't know all the details.

The Lonely One · Nov 25, 2008

RJK said:
I would find it extremely difficult to restrict the entire novel to one POV, whether it was the MC or a secondary character. If you use a secondary character, he'd have to be literally joined at the hip to your MC, to see everything that happens.

I respectfully disagree. I think there is an opportunity to have suspense in interesting ways here.

Although, it depends -- if your character is narrating linear past events invisibly or the character IS the first person POV character. I think the latter would be fun. E.g. it could be the narrator's job to put puzzle pieces together of things that happen with the MC off-screen aka out of his perception. Then you have all these opportunities for an unreliable narrator, etc.

The MC can still be the MC if the narrator is more or less pointless to the plot and the MC moves it along, I think. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

maestrowork · Nov 25, 2008

FennelGiraffe said:
Also see Dr. Watson in the Sherlock Holmes stories and Archie Goodwin in the Nero Wolfe books.

Or Hastings in Agatha Christie's novels. No one would dispute that Poirot is the protagonist. But Hastings serves great purposes as a main character instead of Poirot (offering observations and clues without giving the solutions away by getting into Poirot's head).

FennelGiraffe · Nov 25, 2008

maestrowork said:
Me said:

Also see Dr. Watson in the Sherlock Holmes stories and Archie Goodwin in the Nero Wolfe books.

Click to expand...

Or Hastings in Agatha Christie's novels. No one would dispute that Poirot is the protagonist. But Hastings serves great purposes as a main character instead of Poirot (offering observations and clues without giving the solutions away by getting into Poirot's head).

That's the reason so many examples are in the mystery genre. It's much easier to portray the brilliance of a Great Detective, without spoiling the suspense, if you never have to reveal his thoughts.

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

maestrowork said:
Try it for a chapter and post it on SYW.

When I get it written I will.

RunawayScribe · Nov 25, 2008

I like the Nick Carraway example. And it might allow for insights into your MC you wouldn't get otherwise. Good luck!

blacbird · Nov 25, 2008

Stew21 said:
I'm working on my new WIP, and just was not entirely pleased with third person for it. I've been thinking on it for a while - how to engage deeper into the story and thought a secondary character could tell the story better than the anonymous narrator of third person POV could - in short, I'm creating my very own Nick Carraway.
It feels like the right thing to do, and I'm spending my lunch hour playing with the character's voice in relation to the main character and his plot.

I've not done this before. Any advice? Any cautions?

It's been done, and very effectively (Joseph Conrad, Robert Penn Warren, among others). I'd give it a go, and see what happens.

caw

Jake Barnes · Nov 25, 2008

I'd argue that Watson is the main character in the Sherlock Holmes stories. There's more depth and dimension to Watson than Holmes. For example, read the "Sign of The Four." I can't address the Agatha Christie novels because I never read most of them. And in "All the King's Men" and "Heart of Darkness" the narrator is definitely the main character.

Stew21 · Nov 25, 2008

Jake Barnes said:
I'd argue that Watson is the main character in the Sherlock Holmes stories. There's more depth and dimension to Watson than Holmes. For example, read the "Sign of The Four." I can't address the Agatha Christie novels because I never read most of them. And in "All the King's Men" and "Heart of Darkness" the narrator is definitely the main character.

But there is no doubt that Holmes is the protagonist, and not Watson, right?

maestrowork · Nov 25, 2008

Jake Barnes said:
I'd argue that Watson is the main character in the Sherlock Holmes stories. There's more depth and dimension to Watson than Holmes. For example, read the "Sign of The Four." I can't address the Agatha Christie novels because I never read most of them. And in "All the King's Men" and "Heart of Darkness" the narrator is definitely the main character.

Main character is not the same as the protagonist of the story. Of course Watson is a main character -- the narrator. But the true protagonist has always been Holmes.

Jake Barnes · Nov 25, 2008

I think that the "primary character" whether it is Sherlock Holmes or Jay Gatsby or Willie Stark or Mr. Kurtz has to be larger than life and then, usually, the story is about the effect that character had on the narrator.

maestrowork · Nov 25, 2008

Jake Barnes said:
I think that the "primary character" whether it is Sherlock Holmes or Jay Gatsby or Willie Stark or Mr. Kurtz has to be larger than life and then, usually, the story is about the effect that character had on the narrator.

Yes and no... it depends on what the main thrust of the story really is about. One can argue about Gatsby. Michael Chabon modeled The Mysteries of Pittsburgh after that, but in that novel, Art Bechstein is both the narrator and the protagonist, even though the "larger-than-life" character is Cleveland. Because it's ultimately a coming of age story.

In Sherlock Holmes, though, I think the main thrust of the stories is the mystery. How Watson's affected by Holmes is relatively secondary, I think.

RJK · Nov 25, 2008

For those of you who quoted me and disagreed that it was impossible to do what Stew is planning, I never said it wasn't possible. I said it would be extremely difficult and I stand by that. Yes, it may be fun to try, but it will be very difficult to pull off.

I hadn't thought about the narrator guessing about what happens when he was not in the scene, again, this would be difficult to get right. If he's wrong, it has to be done with the right amount of humor. If he's right, you have to be careful about suspending the reader's disbelief.

The Giraffe has it right about Watson and Goodwin in the Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe stories. The detective himself could not be the narrator without giving away what he was thinking, and there would go all the suspense.

secondary character narration

Stew21

Nateskate

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Stew21

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Jake Barnes

Stew21

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Stew21

Stunted

Ich heiße Superphantastisch!

Stew21

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

The Lonely One

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Stew21

RunawayScribe

It is what it is.

blacbird

Jake Barnes

Stew21

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Jake Barnes

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says: