Personal Pronoun Confusion - "it" vs. "they"

Even taking your explanation into account, the way you have written the sentence reads okay to me, and using 'it' is correct in referring to the 'figure'.

Possibly simpler alternative:

The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before he -- or she? -- began to move again.

-Derek

Bufty is right. The black figure is "it." This is the grammatically correct way to write it, and I don't know who would be confused.

it.

I've used 'it' in a similar situation.

JJM said:

If a characters gender hasn't been defined yet-and I don't want it defined at that moment-what's the proper third-person personal subject pronoun that should be used? I thought that 'they' might be it, but 'they' automatically implies plurality.

Click to expand...

That's a thorny issue we all struggle with. The traditional answer is that "he" can be used for unknown gender. I'd rather not, though.

The even older and more traditional answer is that "they" can be used just fine in the singular. Unfortunately, that isn't widely accepted. There's a lot of prejudice against it.

JJM said:

I would use 'it,' but I've made it clear already that she(the undefined person is female) is a person, and has a gender.

Here's an example:
The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before *they/it?* began to move again.

Click to expand...

I was about to agree with the other posters that "the black figure" could safely be "it" because a figure isn't necessarily a person. Then I saw your comment about previous context and had second thoughts.

One option would be to avoid the problem altogether:
The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before moving again.

Ordinarily, I'd quibble over doing that to the verb. As an alternative to a thorny pronoun problem, however . . .

JJM said:

P.S. Also not sure if I have proper comma use in that sentence. Should that be dashes before seemingly and after interruption?

Click to expand...

You could use dashes there if you like. They would have a stronger effect than the commas. The commas aren't wrong, though.

Unfortunately (IMHO) there is widespread acceptance of plural pronouns used with singular nouns, to wit: everyone has their opinions. I just make everything plural if at all possible.

However, in the sentence cited I agree that "it" is it.

You don't need a pronoun. Just rephrase the sentence:

The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before beginning to move again.

Or

The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, and then began to move again.

Use "it."

Another vote for 'it'.

It makes things a lot easier when problem sentences like this are posted with say, the previous and subsequent five lines in order to put the sentence in context.

Answers given to an out-of-context sentence can only be based upon the sentence itself. Answers may well be right when restricted to any given sentence in isolation, but within context there could be wider POV or other issues involved.

JJM said:

If a characters gender hasn't been defined yet-and I don't want it defined at that moment-what's the proper third-person personal subject pronoun that should be used?

Click to expand...

There was an entire book set in a post-apocalypic world where it was never mentioned if the main character was female or male. It wasn't set as a secret .. it just avoided giving any mention of it.

At the end, if I recall, it was mentioned that the character was androgenous.

BTW, American readers tend to avoid using 'they' for singular ... but it is common in other English speaking countries, though.

It is sad that American teachers are deciding that Shakespeare didn't use correct English !

Mac

It, not they. "They" would have me looking for a second black figure. At present, the figure is neuter, gender unknown, and "it" is the singular pronoun for that.

As for Shakespeare, we are not in Elizabethan England. It makes as much sense to be nostalgic over Anglo-Saxon. Hwaet! To each day and place its own.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SINGULAR 'THEY'. There is actually no rule against it in English grammar--the prohibition is a recent custom and is, in my experience, generally promulgated by people who misunderstand English grammar, use fake-correct locutions like "just between you and I," and torture syntax so that perfectly good sentences don't end in prepositions.

That said, "it" is correct here. A shadowy figure is a visual phenomenon, and thus appropriately described with "it". When the shadowy figure becomes a human being, you could use "they" if you didn't want to specify gender. Or you could probably finesse the whole thing: "The murderer pulled a gun from an inside coat pocket" or similar.

Sarah Caudwell wrote an entire series of mystery novels with a gender-neutral protagonist, a professor of law named Hillary Tamar.

I'm with IceCreamEmpress (it helps that I'm a habitual user of 'they'). However, I am aware of the prejudices against it. It depends what sort of audiance you're writing for and what your voice is like. If it's a casual, natural tone, 'they' would work just fine. Some more uptight narrators for a more uptight audiance might want to stick with verbal gymnastics to avoid using a pronoun.

Mac H. said:

BTW, American readers tend to avoid using 'they' for singular ... but it is common in other English speaking countries, though.

Click to expand...

That's ridiculous. All the Americans I know--which is a lot, since I live in America--use "they" all the time.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

That's ridiculous. All the Americans I know--which is a lot, since I live in America--use "they" all the time.

Click to expand...

You might find it ridiculous, but it is something I've noticed. Look back a couple of posts:

It, not they. "They" would have me looking for a second black figure ... "it" is the singular pronoun for that.

Click to expand...

And to quote The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language ... their panel of "200 distinguished educators, writers, and public speakers reject the use of they with singular antecedents" . 82 percent of the panelists found the sentence "The typical student in the program takes about six years to complete their course work" to be unacceptable.[sup]cite[/sup]

If you find it ridiculous, try taking it up with the panel of the American Heritage Dictionary !

Mac

Mac H. has a good point: the educational establishment in the US, in general, rejects singular "they" far more than the educational establishments of other English-speaking countries.

And Liosse has a good point: the population of the US, in general, uses singular "they" just as much as the population of other English-speaking countries.

Mac H. said:

You might find it ridiculous, but it is something I've noticed. Look back a couple of posts:



And to quote The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language ... their panel of "200 distinguished educators, writers, and public speakers reject the use of they with singular antecedents" . 82 percent of the panelists found the sentence "The typical student in the program takes about six years to complete their course work" to be unacceptable.[sup]cite[/sup]

If you find it ridiculous, try taking it up with the panel of the American Heritage Dictionary !

Mac

Click to expand...

I honestly can't argue your evidence, Mac, but like ICE said, you can't equate the opinion of the AHD with the opinions of average American readers, or writers. I've always used "they" in sentences like the above example, unless I had a particular stylistics reason to use "his" or "his or her". I've had a few people "correct" me, but not many.

ETA: As a further note, the example from this thread you quoted is situational to me. A generic shadow is not necessarily animate, and thus gets dubbed with "it", the inanimate third person pronoun.

I know little about geographical distribution, but rejecting

"The typical student in the program takes about six years to complete their course work,"

isn't the same as rejecting "singular their". "Singular they" referring back to complete noun-phrases is less widely accepted than "singular they" with indefinite pronouns. I predict that a sentence like:

"Anyone can bring their pets,"

would score better with the AHD panel (though I have no proof).

Similarly, almost none of the experts I know would accept singular their in the original post's context. "A dark figure" is a concrete reference, rather than "typical" reference. It's a definite reference (albeit a mysterious one).

"Singular they" is *not* about disguising gender, although this has always played a big role and has probably lead to the usage in the first place. You can find examples where there's no gender ambiguity:

"I know a mother will always love their children, but to the point a grown child may cause her to lose a responsible and loving husband and father that is crazy." (here)

"I would think that a mother would love their children equally and unconditionally." (here)

"The usual definition of a mother is often just a woman who takes care of their child. ... Although being a mother to their child is a social norm of our culture, Edwards defends the position that it is not morally or ethically wrong to choose an alternative over mothering because a mother knows best, even if it means giving up their own child. ... [and plenty of similar examples]" (here)

"I never realized how much a mother could love their children until I had him." (here)

What you need for "singular their" is not gender ambiguity, but an indefinite referent. So back to the original post:

"The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before they began to move again."

I doubt Phael is unique in looking for someone else, in this case. That's because unlike most other instances of "singular their" this one has a definite reference, albeit a mysterious one. Flat out wrong? I'm not sure. I've seen examples from native speakers (the only one I can think of now was in an unpublished script I'm not allowed to share), but I'm not sure how widespread this is. I'm thinking that this is a singular-they innovation, based on the assumption that "singular they" is about gender ambiguity (which does play an important part in usage history, but is neither necessary nor sufficient to use it).

"Singular they" is even more awkward in the above sentence because there are actually two people in the sentence who could plausibly both resume movement. Something like the following might be marginally better:

"The intruder made sure their footsteps could not be heard."

But there's always a hint of "more-than-one-person". I doubt you can get rid of that with a definite referent. And would anyone really say:

"Is 'Chris' a boy or a girl? I wish they had a different name."

Just bear in mind that not all singular theys are equally acceptable. I personally would never use it in the original post's context on account of its definite referent.

I don't know what this means about me, but this thread has inspired me to join up!

To the OP: I agree with the majority. If you must have a pronoun use "it."

To Mac H: I've never lived in the US and don't think I paid any attention to the "singular they" until 5 years ago, though I've been using it all my life. But only recently has it started to jar, because its use in natural speech is slightly different than its use in "US politically correct gender neutral speech."

The point is well made by Dawnstorm. If you want a "singular they" you must have an indefinite referent, or some kind of implied plural - unless you're mainly trying to draw attention to your non sexist credentials. For example, where I come from, someone walking into a doctor's office and asking "can I have an appointment with them?" is making a political point ( and is possibly trying to reeducate the receptionist ). Almost anyone would either avoid the pronoun, or say "him."

Phaeal said:

It, not they. "They" would have me looking for a second black figure. At present, the figure is neuter, gender unknown, and "it" is the singular pronoun for that.

Click to expand...

I see what you're saying. However, this sentence doesn't need a pronoun at all: if you rephrase it it flows smoothly without a pronoun, and so the issue doesn't even come up. Once again:

The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, before beginning to move again.

Or

The black figure stilled for a moment, assessing Samantha, seemingly confused by her interruption, and then began to move again.

The its have it.

I’m not only casting my vote with the “it”s, I’m saying it’s the only correct usage with “figure”, regardless of that figure’s gender.

Using "it" is appropriate.