How much do you believe in your story?

[Nateskate]

I'm going to ask a really tough question, and it applies more to something you consider a very meaningful story project, than your goal to be a writer.

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world

(Vs) You would know for a fact, if you took credit, the most you would have is a small cult appreciation, and a high five figure reward, but nothing more.

Which would you take? *

* Now, I'm not asking you to lay down your dreams of being an author in this choice, or any other writings.

And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it?

Inspiration for this question. There are many ancient texts that are precious to the world, and the author is uncertain or completely unknown. Would you be willing to join them for the cause? The ultimate sacrifice for your story.

[LightShadow]

More than half of my non-fiction stuff falls into that category, and I would be willing to let it be published without anyone knowing it was me if the material got out. Some of it, I believe, if people agreed to follow the priniciples, could solve a lot of problems. Unfortunately, most people have selfish agendas. Alas, the world shall continue to stew like an inferno.

[alaskamatt17]

I would do that for my story, but I don't think it would work--not enough people would like it. So, instead, I'll opt for the small cult appreciation and five-figure sum.

[LightShadow]

Depends on the writing, doesn't it? Most of my fiction I'll take the cult following and money, but some of my NF stuff is so deep that it's more important just for it to get out there.

[astonwest]

Trust me, for a five figure reward, I'd be willing to live with a small cult following...

[DixieChic]

Interesting question.

I don't believe I have anything to say that the world NEEDS that badly. Most of my work is the cynical ramblings of your average thirty-something. If I could elicit a chuckle amongst a "small cult following" of like-minded souls, then perhaps I can use the "five-figure" compensation for a little therapy.

[LightShadow]

Trust me, for a five figure reward, I'd be willing to live with a small cult following...So the importance of what you are trying to say plays second fiddle to the money? To me, principle is an important thing, and the melancholy personality, though it may be a mask sometimes, is a lot safer than sanguinity.

[DixieChic]

So the importance of what you are trying to say plays second fiddle to the money?

I think WHAT you're writing plays a big role in how you answer the original question. In my case, even if I wrote the world's GREATEST "chick-lit" novel, I still think I'd take $10,000 and 25,000 readers over $0 and the entire population of China receiving a copy.

Now, on the other hand, if you believe you are divinely inspired or something and your work of philosophy is going to truly change the face of the planet as we know it, you might feel differently.

[maestrowork]

I haven't discovered a story that the WHOLE WORLD must know and read. ;) I guess I'm not that sage yet.

[CalicoBean]

Definitely I'd take the small cult following and the money. I'm writing a book (YA fantasy) that I hope is entertaining and well written enough to sell. If I can't sell it to a commercial publisher for a decent advance, it gets filed in the trunk. I can live with that.

[LightShadow]

Stories don't reach the level of world changing philosophy, usually, but occasionally a non-fiction study of humanity will. I'm pretty passionate about these things. That's why there is some stuff I'd just assume have out there for the world to see without necessarily needing monetary compensation. Some call it inspired convictions.

[azbikergirl]

While I'm passionate about my story, and it's one that I need to tell, I'm not so sure the world needs to read it. I get a ton of pleasure from knowing that my beta readers enjoyed it, and I believe in my heart there are others like them who would enjoy it as well. But it's a romp. I don't pretend to be delivering some deep message that will change lives. It's a few hours of entertainment, with a light-hearted look at a common concept in a different way.

I'd take the money and hope enough of my cult following will buy the next book, and the next. :)

[skylarburris]

I'd take the credit, the money, and the cult following over the anonymous wide circulation.

I guess I just don't think I or anything I could say is THAT important that it MUST reach the world. I'd like to entertain a decent sized audience, make some cash, and earn a reputation. I'm not a revolutionary or a messiah, so...the whole world doesn't have to read it.

[Birol]

$$ and cult following

[William Haskins]

i just want to be in a cult.

[Liam Jackson]

Membership card is in the mail, Will.

[pepperlandgirl]

The money and the cult following.

Ask me again in 20 years when, hopefully, I won't be so dirt poor, and I'll have more things to say and wisdom to back it up. Then maybe my answer will change.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I'll take 'The Cult Following and the Money' for $10,000, Alex.
:idea:

[Berlovska]

I believe that if your writing has some meaning, it's worth as money as well as, at least, the readers (don't know about a cult - sounds stupid). The levels of a message could be different - from the universal to daily-life, but if it's done well, people enjoy in any case. Or you think you are a God? Doubt...

[Julie Worth]

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world


Well, let’s see. I’m passionate about my writing. I must be, because I do it for no pay and no recognition. And, with all my submissions, eventually some big-name writer will get one of my ideas from an agent. He’ll dust it off and run with it, and it will change the world. He’ll make gazillions, and I’ll be like that guy who invented the theory of evolution. No, not Darwin, the guy he stole it from. What’s his name.

[Fractured_Chaos]

I'd rather have a small following of people who appreciated what I said, and understood where I was coming from, than a gazillion people perverting my words.

That, and the money. :D

[astonwest]

So the importance of what you are trying to say plays second fiddle to the money? To me, principle is an important thing, and the melancholy personality, though it may be a mask sometimes, is a lot safer than sanguinity.
Personally, I'm just a story-teller, plain and simple.
Sometimes my stories have some meaning (such as Hero showed that even if a person shows the world an air of not wanting to get involved, they can still end up doing the right thing when it matters), but the meaning usually ends up taking a back seat to the story...because that's what I want to do, tell a story.

Granted, that's probably why I'll end up with neither of the two options, but......

[Jamesaritchie]

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world

(Vs) You would know for a fact, if you took credit, the most you would have is a small cult appreciation, and a high five figure reward, but nothing more.

Which would you take? *



I guess I'm going to be the exception. I don't see lack of recognition as any price at all. Certainly not an ultimate price. I prefer not receiving the recognition, money or no money. Lack of recognition is a bonus, not a price.

I have written a number of things my family and friends don't know about. To paraphrase the old commercial, only my agent knows for sure. I like it this way.

But even if I didn't, I'd still take the money and run. Writing, I think, should be about the writing, not about the writer. I can say the same things, write the same words, whether anyone knows I wrote them or not. If I could write a book the world needs, it wouldn't mean the world needs me to go along with it.

And while I can understand why anyone would want enough money to never have to worry about bills again, I don't for the life of me understand the desire for fame. Give me anonymity and a check, and you can keep the recognition.

[Nateskate]

I think WHAT you're writing plays a big role in how you answer the original question. In my case, even if I wrote the world's GREATEST "chick-lit" novel, I still think I'd take $10,000 and 25,000 readers over $0 and the entire population of China receiving a copy.

Now, on the other hand, if you believe you are divinely inspired or something and your work of philosophy is going to truly change the face of the planet as we know it, you might feel differently.

Tremendous insight. I've wrestled with my own question, and yes, I agree, it's almost a spiritual question, because I think I'd be going crazy wanting to tell someone, metaphorically, "I wrote Homer's Odessy"

It's such a philosophical dilema, in that our desire is for our work to be appreciated, but when it comes to our work, and us, do we feel the same about it? That's the question, because in scenario one, the author never gets credit. However, in scenario one, the work is the focus.

And I agree also with everyone, it's an easier question in regards to non-fiction, because your political, philosophical, spiritual goals, may "in your mind", be worth falling on your sword for. In a sense, you believe the message is more important than you fame, comfort, and in some cases, your life "In the giving sense, not the taking sense".

However, what if you've thrown it all into your fiction? Would Tolkien, or C.S Lewis have made that trade if it was the only posibility offered to either, Tolkien for LOTR/Silmarillion, and Lewis for Chronicles of Narnia? I think this would have been a difficult question for both. Now, with Lewis, I believe he was the kind of person who believed you influence the world through your fiction. In a sense, the question would likely have caused him a certain amount of anguish, or perhaps it would have been an instantaneous answer.

Then again, perhaps extenuating circumstances can come into play, "I need the money for my wife's medical care." Tolkien was financially strapped after WW2, and his wife had physical problems. In a sense, he started out very hands on with translations of LOTR, and to the point where he didn't want certain translations to be printed in some countries, because they wouldn't come to an agreement on names, and the the interpretations of what he was saying. But later, he basically compromised due to financial needs, sort of, "I really don't like this, but I'll let it go, right now circumstances for me to compromise my standards.

[Nateskate]

Membership card is in the mail, Will.

Liam, I can't wait to see you on a talk show. I love your sometimes twisted, sideways-looking-at-the-world, sense of humor.

[Nateskate]

So many of you haven't figured out you are fonts of wisdom yet, with secrets the world needs locked in the vaults of your minds. Of course you have important things to say.

LOL, don't under-estimate yourself, although I think most writers feel the same, that they don't have anything other than entertaining thoughts to contribute. I think many people have much more to say than they realize. In fact, the reason many people don't portend to have words of wisdom, is because they haven't figured out that few others have figured out what they have figured out yet.

Here's a rather twisted way of looking at it. "What would you have said to yourself at twelve or sixteen to save yourself the difficult times you might have faced back then?"

Even if you felt you needed the difficult times to learn what you learned, I know if I met myself as a young person, I could have given myself quite a number of clues. In fact, in a way I did that with my son when he was going through a difficult time, something I had no opportunity to do with my own father. I just cluelessly banged my head against the wall, with little insight into myself or others.

In a sense, I was able to put the angst of teen years in perspective for him, being momentarily unpopular is never the end of the world. For a variety of reasons he ended up unpopular with his peers in grammar school and students and teachers in middle school. In fact he was tormented at times by other kids and it was at the point it was kicking his self-esteem in the gut.

So, I put it into the perspective of where they were coming from, how not to inflame the situation, how to use his peers insecurities to his advantage, and no word of lie, he went from being a Pariah, to the most popular kid in his school before he left. When he walked in the gym for school functions, the entire student body would cheer him.

Most of us have gained conventional wisdom we'll never use, because unless circumstances show us it's important, we won't realize how important it is.

I'm off the soapbox now, but in a sense, our stories can be a part of everything we've learned. Tolkien never thought of his stories as having profound impact. He actually was self-effacing. But now, thirty something years after his death, the dominos of influence are still falling. I was very inspired by the movies, even to the point of it making a difference in my life at a very difficult time, when I just had to fight through the Orcs, and not give up.

[Ella]

Cults scare me. I'll just take the money.

[Nateskate]

I guess I'm going to be the exception. I don't see lack of recognition as any price at all. Certainly not an ultimate price. I prefer not receiving the recognition, money or no money. Lack of recognition is a bonus, not a price.

I have written a number of things my family and friends don't know about. To paraphrase the old commercial, only my agent knows for sure. I like it this way.

But even if I didn't, I'd still take the money and run. Writing, I think, should be about the writing, not about the writer. I can say the same things, write the same words, whether anyone knows I wrote them or not. If I could write a book the world needs, it wouldn't mean the world needs me to go along with it.

And while I can understand why anyone would want enough money to never have to worry about bills again, I don't for the life of me understand the desire for fame. Give me anonymity and a check, and you can keep the recognition.

I think a need for approval is somehow hardwired in us. Now, it can be extinguished for a variety of reasons. But I think each of us really chooses where we get our approval from, and how much weight to put on it. I think the entire nature of this question would change if a few people, "our inner circle", would be allowed to recognize what we've done, if we made a giant contribution.

If you've ever seen Seinfeld (Sp?) George consistantly got into trouble because he felt a need to get credit for a good deed. One time he bought someone a salad, and was miffed when the girl he liked thought someone else paid for it. He spent an entire episode trying to bring it up so he would get credit. Another time he left a dollar tip, but the guy didn't see him give the tip, so he tried to take it back and give it again, and the guy thought he was stealing the money, and threw him out of the restaurant.

Yet, I think one of the signs of growth, is when we do things, and are less motivated by a need for approval, or we are more selective, meaning we might feel the need to simply live up to our own standard, or please God, or the people in our own inner circle, whoever it is that is important to us.

Most people aren't recognized in a positive way for "work". We do it for pay. That is the reason, not fame. But I think a writer can have a life's work that is not simply entertainment, but an expression of themselves, their beliefs, even an attempt to influence nations or the world to ponder something necessary for human survival. That may be the rare exception.

But you wonder if even for the sake of entertainment, people would have taken (obscurity without renumeration (Sp?) What if George Lucas was taken back in time, and his Star War series was given this choice (obviously this is all pretend in that we aren't normally given such a choice) What if he knew only 100,000 people would see his entire body of work, rather than hundreds of millions. Would he have made that trade?

Of course, I think Spielburg would have done that for Schindler's list, but it required him using his name to get the thing onto the screen in the first place, because people wouldn't have touched it otherwise.

[azbikergirl]

Do I have things to teach the younger me? Yes, of course, but those things don't apply necessarily to my characters.

Even though I consider my story to be a 'romp,' it does have a message. But because I like subtlety, many readers (maybe even most) won't even realize it. I made the story around the message fun enough to stand on its own merits, and put "Easter eggs" in that someone reading the book a second time would find and go "ah ha!" I did that because I find it amusing. :D

[maestrowork]

We all have things to teach our younger selves. But does that mean the whole world is our audience? I think that's the original question...

What I write about maybe deep and profound and wise, but I don't think they're anything new. It might touch my readers and make them think and feel and experience/re-experience something, but none of my "wisdom" is new. I didn't discover a new theory of relativity, or an earth-shattering new philosophy or a new religion. I write about human conditions -- love, fear, death, betrayals, sacrifices, etc. but they are as old as humans have been in existence.

I see what I'm doing as reminding others what it is like to be human. To make them feel better about humanity, or to think what is our individual purpose in life. I try to provoke people to think and reflect. But I am in the position to offer them any new insight.

[reph]

Most people aren't recognized in a positive way for "work". We do it for pay. That is the reason, not fame.
If most people aren't recognized (recognition being somewhere this side of fame) for what they do all day, that's a pitiful statement about most workplaces.

There's another reason for working: a job well done feels good. This can sustain a person when pay is low.

[mdmkay]

GET A GRIP...I write humerous fiction for children and I'm on disability....What do you think? However to defend the baser side of my nature,:banana: I do write articles for women and adult abuse survivors for free so maybe I haven't completely sold my soul to the satan yet. (laughing). Hey....wait a minute...I just thought of something....I have 2 books with PA so I have written for free with no [good] recognition. Aw shoot, that doesn't count cause no one in their right mind is going to read them. O.K. then back to the money and cult for me.

[Berlovska]

Nateskate - you can put your posts in here together, arrange them a little bit and sell somewhere :) You have a style, nice insights and possibility to express it in good English. This how I see writer's work - to work with the words.

Azbikergirl - I like your way of writing. I try to do the same - around simple things to put something more meaningful. Amazing how people recognize the things - some do, some not.

[gogoshire]

I think this question is so interesting because it forces us to look at our egos - Have I written anything I want the entire world to be exposed to? Do I want to be noble? Is taking the dollars and cult fame somehow less noble? Is money not a victory? Is nobility a prerequisite for an artist? If not a prereq, is it at least a desired trait?

If you posted a similar question on a board for doctors or lawyers, how would they respond?

We know how the pharmaceutical companies are responding to the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

Is there something in this question that can tell us why certain service professions (e.g. teachers) are not well paid? Are writers and other artists service providers?

I'm rambling. I'll stop.

-Maureen

[Jamesaritchie]

I think a need for approval is somehow hardwired in us. Now, it can be extinguished for a variety of reasons. But I think each of us really chooses where we get our approval from, and how much weight to put on it. I think the entire nature of this question would change if a few people, "our inner circle", would be allowed to recognize what we've done, if we made a giant contribution.

.

I don't know if the need for approval is hardwired or not, but it seems to me that most who need approval have never had approval. I suspect the need for approval as an adult most often comes from lack of approval as a child.

I honestly can't remember ever even thinking about whether or not anyone approved of me in any way, let alone worrying about it. It seems a terrible way to live life. I try to make decisions based on whatever I believe is the right thing to do at the moment, not on whether or not anyone will or won't approve.

If peer pressure in high school doesn't teach people that doing things for approval is a bad idea, nothing will. I always found peer pressure incredibly sad and uproariously funny at the same time.

Now, when I say only my agent knows for sure, I mean it. Neither my wife nor my kids know a fraction of the things I've written. These things may not be earth changing, may not move mountains, but they made some money and some sales. And drew quite a few fan letters.

And who can say what changes the world, what changes lives? A fifty cent western novel I found in a root cellar at age fifteen changed my life more than anything else I've ever read.

As for my inner circle outside my immediate family, friends should be people who like you because you're you, not because you did something great. If I needed approval from my inner circle of friends, I'd find new friends. And I sure don't want an inner circle of friends I have to impress, or who have to impress me.

In fact, my inner circle is one of the biggest reasons I prefer anonymity.

And, really, which do you think will gain you more approval, writing a book that changes the world, but that eighty percent of the population isn't going to read no matter how great it is, or having a savings account with a couple of dozen zeroes after the nine?

[Lenora Rose]

I'm essentially a very insecure person. I don't want fame, and I don't want a cult following. I DO want occasional validation. And I want connection and communication.

If I had just written a book that included the ultimate question of life the universe and everything, I've give it to everyone free. Because knowing the answer would BE validation. LIkewise for slightly less ultimate goals - the cure for aids or the cure for prejudice.

That would be true even if I somehow managed to couch the answer in fiction.

I didn't. The stories I'm writing right now (For love of writing, since few have seen them and I've received a pittance even for those actually published) may have things to say about religion, and about different kinds of love. And about all kinds of other themes. But none of them are things that will connect to the whole of the universe.

I'm not selling myself short to say that a fantasy novel is a fantasy novel. And even a good classic fantasy novel many people love... is still just a novel. None of my favourite fantasy novels are universally loved, so mine will not be. To have them loved by someone, who then starts a dialogue with me about the things in that book? That's cool. That's validation. You can't have that dialogue if they don't know who you are.

The question of money is another matter. Reaching a larger audience. Maybe changing one or two lives if I write something more profound than I thought I did. I'd take that over big money any day. (Although the way the world works, the money comes simultaneously with reaching a larger audience. So oh well.)

[Jamesaritchie]

I guess what it all boils down to for me is that I want money AND anonymity. I'm selfish this way. I don't think money is evil, and I don't think working for free is noble. Great deeds have been done for pay, and some horrendous acts have been committed for free.

Is a fireman less brave, less noble, because he draws a salary? Do you suppose the parents of a rescued child will think less of the fireman because he makes more money than they do?

It is well to do good things. It is also well to be paid.

It also strikes me that this entire thread is looking inward rather than outward. Changing the world and changing lives should be about those changed, not about the person who made the changes.

The old saying, "I'm the humblest many alive, and I'm proud of it" comes to mind.

[Nateskate]

Do I have things to teach the younger me? Yes, of course, but those things don't apply necessarily to my characters.

Even though I consider my story to be a 'romp,' it does have a message. But because I like subtlety, many readers (maybe even most) won't even realize it. I made the story around the message fun enough to stand on its own merits, and put "Easter eggs" in that someone reading the book a second time would find and go "ah ha!" I did that because I find it amusing. :D

"Do I have to teach the younger me?" Nah, I wasn't insinuating anyone had an obligation to address anything. I was simply saying most people could if they wanted to. We tend to underestimate ourselves. That's all.

Some people have a passion for such things, and some write rather popular books on those kinds of subjects. Dr Phil and others make a living just phrasing sometimes common sense things in such a way that makes it more interesting.

With Tolkien, a great deal of his insights were gleaned from living through two world wars, and seeing what happened to his mother. Some people might not realize this, but virtually every hero in the story was orphaned, as he was. Aragorn was orphaned and raised by Elves. Frodo was orphaned and raised by Uncle Bilbo. Eowyn was orphaned and raised by King Theodin. Anyone else notice a pattern here? Orphans become heroes.

Tolkien's guardians didn't understand him. They came between him and Edith, saying they couldn't get wed. Twice, once in LOTR, the guardian figure, (The second one was Elrond) come between a man and the woman he loves. In a sense, saying, "They are too good for you."

So much of what we learn can find their way into our stories.

[arrowqueen]

I have no principles. Just gimme the money!

[Nateskate]

I guess what it all boils down to for me is that I want money AND anonymity. I'm selfish this way. I don't think money is evil, and I don't think working for free is noble. Great deeds have been done for pay, and some horrendous acts have been committed for free.

Is a fireman less brave, less noble, because he draws a salary? Do you suppose the parents of a rescued child will think less of the fireman because he makes more money than they do?

It is well to do good things. It is also well to be paid.

It also strikes me that this entire thread is looking inward rather than outward. Changing the world and changing lives should be about those changed, not about the person who made the changes.

The old saying, "I'm the humblest many alive, and I'm proud of it" comes to mind.

You make excellent points. In this case, though, I'm not saying anonymity is a virtue. Why honor anyone if it is? Honor is hardly an unspiritual thing. "Honor thy father and thy mother." Honor means to lift up, hold high. So, my point isn't to say you are better if you don't recieve honor. Likewise, everyone needs money to live. Money is whatever you do with it. So, I'm not saying money is evil. Some might say the "love" of money is the root of all evils. But money itself is only a tool.

My point is again, rephrased, "Have you ever writen something you valued so much, you'd have sacrificed a great deal to put it in people's hands?"

It's a loaded question, some might associate with the question, "What value does my writing have to their reader, differentiating whether it benefited society or entertained people. But I didn't say that, but some read that into the question. Now, when I possed the question, I assumed a "work of fiction" could also fit in that category.

And to be frank and honest. I think if I wrote that story, and no one in the world knew I wrote that story, it would drive me nuts. It's one thing to hold onto anonymity, and another to never be recognized for a masterpiece.

But, again, the question you raise is a different issue. "Is it fame worth losing your privacy over?" That question is another honest and important question. What if I sell a six book deal tomorrow under a pseudonym, would I lose something I could never get back if I let everyone know who I am?

This takes us back to my question. I think 100% of us would take satisfaction in being recognized as "Author X". As long as I know I'm author x, and my wife and a few friends, that would be all the recognition some of us would need. But "no" recognition, not my wife, my friends? That's a sacrifice in my eyes.

[Nateskate]

I'm essentially a very insecure person. I don't want fame, and I don't want a cult following. I DO want occasional validation. And I want connection and communication.

If I had just written a book that included the ultimate question of life the universe and everything, I've give it to everyone free. Because knowing the answer would BE validation. LIkewise for slightly less ultimate goals - the cure for aids or the cure for prejudice.

That would be true even if I somehow managed to couch the answer in fiction.

I didn't. The stories I'm writing right now (For love of writing, since few have seen them and I've received a pittance even for those actually published) may have things to say about religion, and about different kinds of love. And about all kinds of other themes. But none of them are things that will connect to the whole of the universe.

I'm not selling myself short to say that a fantasy novel is a fantasy novel. And even a good classic fantasy novel many people love... is still just a novel. None of my favourite fantasy novels are universally loved, so mine will not be. To have them loved by someone, who then starts a dialogue with me about the things in that book? That's cool. That's validation. You can't have that dialogue if they don't know who you are.

The question of money is another matter. Reaching a larger audience. Maybe changing one or two lives if I write something more profound than I thought I did. I'd take that over big money any day. (Although the way the world works, the money comes simultaneously with reaching a larger audience. So oh well.)

I relate. I said to James, that it would drive me nuts if no one knew I wrote such a novel. Even now, I picture discussing my novel with others, should it get published, and would hope to explain things.

Now, I believe someone can write such a poignant work of fiction; that it is life changing for some who'd read it. It would cause people to have epiphanies. In a sense it could be about the meaning of life, the meaning of love, the questions of what matters in the Universe.

I'm not saying all books reach for that. I mentioned C.S Lewis, because Screwtape Letters was a book on the nature of good and evil. People didn't have to agree with his perspective to enjoy the story, or the gist. But I think he wrote it to impact people's thinking about what matters in life.

[reph]

Personality differences will affect the value of fame to an individual. I'm pretty introverted. Having great numbers of strangers know my name and a few facts about me, plus a few imitation facts, doesn't appeal to me. Those people wouldn't know me. Someone who thrives on sociability and crowds might find fame a bigger attraction.

[brokenfingers]

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world

(Vs) You would know for a fact, if you took credit, the most you would have is a small cult appreciation, and a high five figure reward, but nothing more.

Which would you take? *

* Now, I'm not asking you to lay down your dreams of being an author in this choice, or any other writings.

And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it?



Wow, I feel sorry for anybody who is that self-deluded that they feel that their work of fiction is so important that they just HAVE to share it with the world – regardless of the cost.

It’s naïve attitudes like that that publishers like PA and vanity press houses rely upon.

Sheesh, it’s only a story for pete’s sake.

I write to entertain. Period. I believe I have a very marketable book that many people will enjoy but in the end – it’s only a story. It isn’t like I’ve found a cure for cancer or something.

It is not some grand expose that will open people’s eyes to the abuses going on in the political system, or bring them closer to God, or show them how to live to be 200, or make them brighter, happier and healthier individuals.

All it will do is let them get away for awhile and escape from the everyday world with all its problems and headaches.

My book will be nothing more than an escape hatch for people to escape through for a while. That’s all.

If it winds up being something that the whole world will enjoy – great! I’m all for it. But I sure as hell am not sitting down at my desk everday thinking that I’m writing something that will change the world.

So, to this question:


Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world



And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it?

I answer:



No. I do not believe in my story so much that I’d pay the ultimate price for widespread circulation. I find that thought absurd. I am not writing something that is more important than receiving gains and recognition from it. (Wait, this is the Novel section, right? Just checking.)

I do not intend to put my name on my books anyway. If and when I get published I already plan on using a pen name.

Nobody in the real world even knows that I write. And I probably wouldn’t even tell anyone I know (besides family) about the book anyway since in the circles I travel – they wouldn’t be impressed.

I’ve heard many writers tell of the situation where they tell someone they’re writing a book and the person says: “Oh really – maybe I’ll do that too once I get some time.”

It’s sad but true that if I told people I’d written a book – they wouldn’t be too impressed. But if I showed up with a brand new sports car and told them I bought it from the sales on a book I wrote – then they’d be impressed. And I don’t blame them.

How else can you tell the power of your words or the worth of your work unless people prove it by actually spending cold hard cash for them?

So, yeah – give me the money and the groupies. :)

[reph]

By the way, Nate, what did you mean by "the ultimate price"? Were you asking people whether they'd give away all their money to have a story published, or whether they'd die, or something else?

I mean, I know you described a deal in which the author would be anonymous and not get paid, but those conditions don't sound very ultimate. Some writing is published on those terms already.

[Paolo]

Hell no. I want the recognition and the cheese. I believe 100% in my story, but I don't think it's going to dramatically change any lives, except possibly my own. It's told for entertainment with a loose moralistic thread and a whole bunch of action and intrigue. It's about Amazon Warrior Lesbians From Outer Space , after all ... how serious could it be?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't conssider the stakes that high. The "ultimate price" for me, is my life itself, which has very little to do with some words on a page. Now, before everyone turns the dial on their prose machines to "espouse ideals", please read on. Yes, writing is a need for most of us. It is for me, but I choose to make it that way. As important as writing is for me, it's still not really who I am. I hope that one day who I am and what I do intersect. When that happens, I suppose I will have a master work. Until then, writing is an exercise in communication, connection and ego.

[triceretops]

Forget the money and give me twice the cult. Then my next book will have three times the following and twice the original dollar amount. I'm a gambler.

Tri

[maestrowork]

I change my mind.


I want groupies. The more the merrier. Meet me outside my trailer, please! Groupies!!!

[PattiTheWicked]

Cult following and money.

Especially the cult following. I need a few good lackeys, minions and henchmen.

[Ivonia]

Well, personally, I'd rather do both, write a story that many people throughout the world will enjoy/make them think, and get paid for doing it.

But right now, if this decision were to be thrown on me, I would also have to say I'd want the money. After all, having works read throughout the world but not getting paid for it (while I'm still alive anyway) isn't going to pay my bills.

If money wasn't an issue however, then I would definitely want to write something that will stand the test of time and people will enjoy reading for a long time (look at the Bible for one, or Shakespeare). I'm sure it wouldn't be easy, but being able to write a story that is above all entertaining, but at the same time also help change people's lives for the better is something I would like to do (maybe I'll do that later in life, for now, I need the money).

After all, overall I'm not terribly concerned about the fame/recognition. Not like anyone will really care about my personal life that much, especially long after I'm gone (but I could be wrong about that too, if I just happen to be lucky and become famous like Shakespeare. I'm sure I could use better examples, but I'm just using a relatively familiar name for sake of argument), but if my story is good, people will definitely remember that. It would be nice to be able to add a couple of stories that people will talk about for a long time.

[Nateskate]

Hell no. I want the recognition and the cheese. I believe 100% in my story, but I don't think it's going to dramatically change any lives, except possibly my own. It's told for entertainment with a loose moralistic thread and a whole bunch of action and intrigue. It's about Amazon Warrior Lesbians From Outer Space , after all ... how serious could it be?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't conssider the stakes that high. The "ultimate price" for me, is my life itself, which has very little to do with some words on a page. Now, before everyone turns the dial on their prose machines to "espouse ideals", please read on. Yes, writing is a need for most of us. It is for me, but I choose to make it that way. As important as writing is for me, it's still not really who I am. I hope that one day who I am and what I do intersect. When that happens, I suppose I will have a master work. Until then, writing is an exercise in communication, connection and ego.

When I asked the question, I assumed most people would decline on the "give it all for my story".

Perhaps some, especially if they already have lots of money, and lots of published books, may finally have that kind of a book, where what they are writing is of such importance to them, they could care less if they are recognized, as long as what they say finds an audience.

[Nateskate]

Well, personally, I'd rather do both, write a story that many people throughout the world will enjoy/make them think, and get paid for doing it.

But right now, if this decision were to be thrown on me, I would also have to say I'd want the money. After all, having works read throughout the world but not getting paid for it (while I'm still alive anyway) isn't going to pay my bills.

If money wasn't an issue however, then I would definitely want to write something that will stand the test of time and people will enjoy reading for a long time (look at the Bible for one, or Shakespeare). I'm sure it wouldn't be easy, but being able to write a story that is above all entertaining, but at the same time also help change people's lives for the better is something I would like to do (maybe I'll do that later in life, for now, I need the money).

After all, overall I'm not terribly concerned about the fame/recognition. Not like anyone will really care about my personal life that much, especially long after I'm gone (but I could be wrong about that too, if I just happen to be lucky and become famous like Shakespeare. I'm sure I could use better examples, but I'm just using a relatively familiar name for sake of argument), but if my story is good, people will definitely remember that. It would be nice to be able to add a couple of stories that people will talk about for a long time.

Without a doubt we'd all want our cake and eat it too, which is why I made it a dilema. There were countless stories out of WW2, and people paid a price to have a story to tell. No one (in my mind) ever volunteers to pay a price to have a story to tell. Rather, life just throws you into those kinds of places. Yet, I've heard people who've encountered hardships, say they wouldn't go back and undo it, because of what it taught them and made them. Others say they would. It's the same kind of question.

[Paolo]

When I asked the question, I assumed most people would decline on the "give it all for my story".

Perhaps some, especially if they already have lots of money, and lots of published books, may finally have that kind of a book, where what they are writing is of such importance to them, they could care less if they are recognized, as long as what they say finds an audience.

I loved the question, it got me thinking. Also, I realize that you were specific about what you meant by "give it all". You should have known us writer cats would spin it into some huge epic about life and identity. I think I spun past the original spirit of the question. Thing is, I just can't read "give it all" and think only "money/fame". That's a life or death phrase to me. No avoiding it (ego anyone?).

So did you get answers that enlightened you ? Any surprises?

Paolo

[Liam Jackson]

The history of both entertainment and academia is littered with the smoking carcasses of men and women who stepped away from convention because they believed so strongly in their message. Of course, there are some success stories scattered among the ruins, too. (the caveat is that only those individuals directly involved can define success.)

Lenny Bruce and Andy Kaufman understood their brand of schtick had limited commercial appeal. But they were both devoted to the style and message of their comedy. Kaufman sacrificed huge paydays to pursue his ideals. He earned a hell of a cult following in the process.

As for writers/educators, there was a gentleman associated with the Air Force's Project Bluebook. For the entire life of that project, he was the military's sole "investigator of expertise." (a former astonomy professor at Ohio State.) His role for the duration of that project was that of the skeptic. He played his part, earned academic respect for his position, and a nice, fat check from Uncle Sam.

At the end of Project Bluebook, he sacrificed his academic credibility with peers and that nice fat check by reversing his stance on the issue of UFOs. I don't think he ever earned "cult" status, but he certainly became a favorite with UFO conspiracy theorist.

[Nateskate]

We all have things to teach our younger selves. But does that mean the whole world is our audience? I think that's the original question...

What I write about maybe deep and profound and wise, but I don't think they're anything new. It might touch my readers and make them think and feel and experience/re-experience something, but none of my "wisdom" is new. I didn't discover a new theory of relativity, or an earth-shattering new philosophy or a new religion. I write about human conditions -- love, fear, death, betrayals, sacrifices, etc. but they are as old as humans have been in existence.

I see what I'm doing as reminding others what it is like to be human. To make them feel better about humanity, or to think what is our individual purpose in life. I try to provoke people to think and reflect. But I am in the position to offer them any new insight.

Honestly, you and AZ are in a good place. I'm certainly not saying anyone here has to write pearls of wisdom, or a "save the world" melodrama. But I can imagine there are some that have.

In my view, such a person is a rare bird.

[Nateskate]

I loved the question, it got me thinking. Also, I realize that you were specific about what you meant by "give it all". You should have known us writer cats would spin it into some huge epic about life and identity. I think I spun past the original spirit of the question. Thing is, I just can't read "give it all" and think only "money/fame". That's a life or death phrase to me. No avoiding it (ego anyone?).

So did you get answers that enlightened you ? Any surprises?

Paolo

No. I felt the majority of people couldn't make such a trade. It is like dying for your art. But I left open a back door, you'd still have the ability to shoot for the gold ring with another work.

I'm not so selfless to separate myself from the pack here. But there are times I look at why I write, and I tend to have two sides, fantasy/sci fi- with a touch of romance. Well, maybe a hint of murder/mystery. But the other side is all serious. The rest is all life issues.

[Nateskate]

The history of both entertainment and academia is littered with the smoking carcasses of men and women who stepped away from convention because they believed so strongly in their message. Of course, there are some success stories scattered among the ruins, too. (the caveat is that only those individuals directly involved can define success.)

Lenny Bruce and Andy Kaufman understood their brand of schtick had limited commercial appeal. But they were both devoted to the style and message of their comedy. Kaufman sacrificed huge paydays to pursue his ideals. He earned a hell of a cult following in the process.

As for writers/educators, there was a gentleman associated with the Air Force's Project Bluebook. For the entire life of that project, he was the military's sole "investigator of expertise." (a former astonomy professor at Ohio State.) His role for the duration of that project was that of the skeptic. He played his part, earned academic respect for his position, and a nice, fat check from Uncle Sam.

At the end of Project Bluebook, he sacrificed his academic credibility with peers and that nice fat check by reversing his stance on the issue of UFOs. I don't think he ever earned "cult" status, but he certainly became a favorite with UFO conspiracy theorist.

Liam, I see you as a quick-witted person, who can probably get a bar-full of people laughing. But I also see you as a deep thinker, somewhat like myself, who is not exempt from trying to say things in stories you hope people get. But if you look at much of the fantasy community, you'll find people making religious, political, social statements. Animal farm isn't a disney show. Gene Rodenbury was shameless in political comments in Star Trek. Sometimes a space ship is just a space ship, other times it's something else.

I think we all want our cake and to eat it too. We hope we get famous, money to make our lives more convenient, and opportunities to tell the stories behind our stories.

[NeuroFizz]

Nate, Good thread. Just a few random thoughts.

Random thought #1. If what you're talking about is altruism, there is a long strand of it running through the animal kingdom, down to some lowly invertebrates. Human values run with an altruistic arc, but they also take the other side, survival and passing of one's own genes at the expense of other's genes. In other words, we are butting heads with ourselves--one side looking out for the common good, the other taking care of number one. What does this have to do with the question? To give up all recognition and financial gain for the common good is the altruistic side, taking the money and groupies is the personal fitness side. These clashing traits have shaped animal behavior for millions of years. The only difference between us and all of the other animals is we can think about it all, and reason it through for ourselves, balanced by what we observe in others. For many animals, the responses are more hard wired (but not entirely). For us, we can show extaordinary altruism, particularly in times of hardship, and extreme selfishness in times of peace and quiet. It all depends on the circumstances at the time of the challenge. Right now, with two children (my gene pool) just a few years old, I'm looking for a little financial edge to solidify their futures. Get this...this is considered both selfish (taking care of my genes) and altruistic (putting my children's good ahead of mine). On the recognition side, I wouldn't mind my children being able to say, "That's my dad" when they are a little older.

Random thought #2. Several of you say that you want to entertain, but you want to remain anonymous. I presume, therefore, you are writing under pen names.

Random thought #3. If you want to get close to what your original thesis asks (the altruistic side), try publishing in scientific journals. Original research, evaluated by anonymous peer review, is published with the author's name, but there is no financial reward. In fact, some of the better journals require payment of page charges. There is absolutely no financial return to the authors. To the general public, these articles are invisible, yet they contribute to a growing knowlege base that can be of benefit to everyone. Outside of the author's research area, there is little recognition. Why is it done? The research has the same thrill as writing an exciting scene for a story. It has the same sense of accomplishment. But the philosophy of publication is a little different: the best research on the globe isn't worth anything unless it is communicated to the rest of the scientific world. If we extrapolate that to fiction, the best story isn't worth anything unless it is communicated to the reading public, and we are right back to your question--how would you prefer to do that. To be fair, scientists publish for another reason. In the publish-or-perish world of academia it's necessary to do so to maintain the best academic positions, which provide a very good living (no where near what an MD makes, though). So, even where one can make an altruistic argument, it is tainted with financial compensation and, although minimal, recognition.

Random thought #4. Do I have anything meaningful I could tell my younger self? Of course, by that younger self would think I'm just another idiot adult trying to force his values on me, and therefore not worth listening to. Besides, someday that self will be playing in the NBA and have more money than almost all idiot adults, AND have groupies dripping off his extremities.

Random thought #5. My head hurts.

[Liam Jackson]

Nate, my wit is questionable, however, I have been known to crack up a room full of bar patrons. A captive audience, that bunch.

Yes, many writers use their work as mediums to slip in the occasional social, political, or religious message. However, I took your original query as a hypothetical extreme. (a "Risk everything" mindset") Many commercial writers tap nerves and stretch the boundries, but few risk the almighty dollar simply to get across some "message." Neither Rodenberry, not Orwell risked their careers to make statements. (Not to say neither took risks. I just don't equate their risks with the kind of "give all/risk all" we were discusing.) Now, what if the message were of such magnitutde it could affect a significant population, but at the risk of the prophet's livelihood?

I would think that the moment a writer becomes the proprietor of potentially life-altering profundity, commercialism becomes moot. At that point, fear of financial repercussions would take a back seat to spreading the "message."

Maybe I'm dead wrong and most people would sit on that kind of revelatory information, in favor of padding the bank account.

[Nateskate]

Nate, Good thread. Just a few random thoughts.

Random thought #5. My head hurts.

#1- If this was only about altruism, we could change the conversation to include, "If a life were at stake, would you sacrifice your novel?" And a lot more hands would go up. I believe that few people would say, "Let em die."

This is more generic, in the sense that I suppose some people have tremendous gifts, and some might want to shape the world through their gifts more than anything else. That again is a rare person. I'm not sure I'm that rare.

Randon 2- anonymity. That in and of itself is a benefity to some, and losing fame is meaningless. One who craves privacy is sacrificing by accepting exposure. I can imagine this side of the question would change dramatically for, let's say, Oprah. She has so many venues for being appreciated and approved, one more may mean diddly to her.

In a sense, Eric Claptain was never comfortable with his fame. He hid behind the name, Derrick and the Dominos, because he didn't want to front a band. Some famous people play on other people's albums, and we never know, because they refuse credit.

R3- scientific journals. There are tons of Academic publications which are career related, but not fame or "immediate" monetary related. They may be indirectly beneficial in that you either need to be published to keep your job, or it opens doors to other jobs. So, in and of itself, giving away intellectual material may or may not be altruistic.

4- Ah- the younger self. I chose a random example of how we can benefit others. Anything life teaches us can somehow benefit others. But not everyone is called to write a book about their life or their trials. But when push comes to shove, who has the ability to help others? Everyday people who don't think they have much to give. A child of an abusive alcoholic (Good Will Hunting) Robin Williams might have figured out how to forgive/forget/ and move on with their life. Another "Will" may be drowing in pain because they never figured that out. Person one may have life-enhancing/perhaps life-saving information for person two. Multiply that information by thousands if they write it out in a story? Not everyone comes out of a screwed up childhood, but they may have survived a business colapse, terrible bosses, marital problems. It's not only the successful who have something valuable to say. It's the survivors. Again, just thoughts that common everyday people often have more to share than they realize.

[Nateskate]

Nate, my wit is questionable, however, I have been known to crack up a room full of bar patrons. A captive audience, that bunch.

Yes, many writers use their work as mediums to slip in the occasional social, political, or religious message. However, I took your original query as a hypothetical extreme. (a "Risk everything" mindset") Many commercial writers tap nerves and stretch the boundries, but few risk the almighty dollar simply to get across some "message." Neither Rodenberry, not Orwell risked their careers to make statements. (Not to say neither took risks. I just don't equate their risks with the kind of "give all/risk all" we were discusing.) Now, what if the message were of such magnitutde it could affect a significant population, but at the risk of the prophet's livelihood?

I would think that the moment a writer becomes the proprietor of potentially life-altering profundity, commercialism becomes moot. At that point, fear of financial repercussions would take a back seat to spreading the "message."

Maybe I'm dead wrong and most people would sit on that kind of revelatory information, in favor of padding the bank account.

You crack me up from time to time with some of the things you say off the top of your head. But that's the best kind of humor. It just comes.

If you look again at the origional question, it isn't asking for a career sacrifice or livelihood sacrifice. It is only talking about 1 work of significance. Did anyone ever have one? I think I said you could write other books, with the assumption you'd get full credit and monetary reward for them.

Then again, maybe writing such a work is so absolutely rare, it's a moot point. You'd have to have one to make the sacrifice. So maybe I should only leave it in the fantastical theoretic plain. Someone writing erotica may feel they are enhancing lives, but they aren't likely to feel like the world can't live without their works.

[reph]

Somehow the choice has drifted to altruism versus selfishness. This was the original question:

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

In the last few posts, "I believe in my story" has turned into "I believe my message will save the world." But believing in your story might not be altruistic at all. Writers who go to PA with accounts of their horrible childhoods feel an urgent need to tell their stories. That doesn't mean their motive is altruistic. They're trying to discharge something. Or you might just think you've created a great work of fiction, and you want people to read it even if they don't know your name.

Earlier in this thread, paying "the ultimate price" turned out to mean sacrificing income and groupies. I suggest that the motives on both sides of the question as posed – getting your story to tens of millions versus becoming rich and famous – are selfish.

[MadScientistMatt]

Right now, I just don't think I could write a book that could change the world. The drafts I have on my computer are an out of date satyrical screenplay, a how-to book about cars, and the start of a piece of hack science fiction. Nothing earthshaking there. I'd be very, very happy to get a high five figures and a cult following for anything I'm writing.

[Nateskate]

Somehow the choice has drifted to altruism versus selfishness. This was the original question:

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

In the last few posts, "I believe in my story" has turned into "I believe my message will save the world." But believing in your story might not be altruistic at all. Writers who go to PA with accounts of their horrible childhoods feel an urgent need to tell their stories. That doesn't mean their motive is altruistic. They're trying to discharge something. Or you might just think you've created a great work of fiction, and you want people to read it even if they don't know your name.

Earlier in this thread, paying "the ultimate price" turned out to mean sacrificing income and groupies. I suggest that the motives on both sides of the question as posed – getting your story to tens of millions versus becoming rich and famous – are selfish.

Good point. But in the case of those who go for vanity publishing, they are taking one of the options, and that is a desire to be seen and validated by having something published. They aren't giving away their identity.

In a sense, I did ponder whether as an artist if someone would make such a sacrifice, but as we've seen, most people can't see doing something so drastic for arts sake, and from the second thred on have pretty much tied it top the value of what's being said.

So, it did evolve in that direction, and I can see why.

But so far, no one has said they would do it for arts sake. And the PA people generally would accept the cult following and cash.

I want to make it clear I'm not making a value judgment. If people do that, it's not implied they are selfish. But in this case, the ultimate sacrifice is to have what you've written read by the masses.

Again, I didn't imply only for altruistic reasons. Artistic are also there. However, I'm getting the idea that few if any would do it simply for arts sake, to be the unheralded author of a masterpiece.

[Nateskate]

Since sacrifice for art's sake isn't cutting it, and everyone is associating the question with "changing the world."

If you had a story, or knew you could write a story that would change a "city/nation/world", would you be willing to give it away under the same conditions set forth in thread one. You would be willing to have no acknowledgement of your talent, no earthly reward of any kind. Would you do it just because you felt you should?

To put this in perspective, there are many writers who've virtually done this in repressive nations where association with the writing could have gotten them killed. There are still nations where writing can get you killed. And so you write and never put your name on it. It just gets passed around in the virtual underground. They fear for themselves and their families. The last thing they'll do is sign it. But they believe in what they say to such a degree, they will put it out there.

[NeuroFizz]

Thanks for the redirect, Reph (rhymes with ref = referee?). The altruism thing wasn't forwarded to be taken literally, but as a parallel. But I'll gladly let that one die off.

There's one more thing to consider about the original question. If we are so emotionally high on our work, won't we be setting ourselves up for a huge disappointment, even if the message is spread anonymously? After all, no matter how universal we think our messages are in this world, there may be those who will want to annoint us, but I'll bet there will be those who will want to nail us to t-shaped sticks as well. Particularly if the widespread distribution is indiscriminate. Is that scenario included in the "ultimate sacrifice," or just foregoing all acknowledgement and monetary gain? I'm not talking about a "change the world" thing here. We just get so close to our writing, it would be devastating to make the originally-mentioned sacrifice and then see the work panned.

[Liam Jackson]

The focus of the question changed long before the last few posts. The issue for me stems from the term "ultimate price." Perhaps if I understood the intending meaning, I could better answer the original query. I may have missed the clarification. I'll read back through the thread.

As for altrusim vs selfishness, I probably should have phrased my reference to "bank accounts" in a different way. I was speaking of job security, being able to pay the bills, and longevity in one's chosen career. I would think the ideal would almost have to carry implications of major import for most to even consider championing a cause at the risk of losing livelihood. (Championing a cause could be interpreted as nothing more than publishing a book because you believe in the message, despite the fact that publication carries significant risk to one's livelihood.)

[reph]

Thanks for the redirect, Reph (rhymes with ref = referee?).
It's pronounced "reef."

[reph]

If you had a story, or knew you could write a story that would change a "city/nation/world", would you be willing to give it away under the same conditions set forth in thread one. You would be willing to have no acknowledgement of your talent, no earthly reward of any kind. Would you do it just because you felt you should?
This is a smaller example than what you're talking about, but I've put in many unpaid hours doing nonfiction writing over the past year as part of a group effort to protest and reform the business tax in my city. The material won't be published in the conventional sense; it consists, for example, of e-mails to city officials, arguing our side, and reports on meetings. Absolutely, I do this because I think I should.

[Liam Jackson]

And speaking of that ongoing city battle, Reph, how goes the fight?

[reph]

And speaking of that ongoing city battle, Reph, how goes the fight?
Slowly. We had another meeting on April 28: three members of our group, one member of the City Council, her chief of staff, two of the city attorneys, three employees of the Finance and Revenue divisions, and two invited observers (the head of the local NWU chapter and an officer of another association that includes many freelancers). Now we're waiting for data I requested from Revenue that would enable us to propose an amnesty program that the city government can afford.

Folks, don't get into political action unless you're patient and bullheaded. It's something like writing a novel.

[astonwest]

It's pronounced "reef."
Good info to know...I've been pronouncing it the other way...

[reph]

Good info to know...I've been pronouncing it the other way...
Extrapolating from this tiny incident suggests how unsatisfying fame might be, in the sense of having many people know of you.

[Nateskate]

The focus of the question changed long before the last few posts. The issue for me stems from the term "ultimate price." Perhaps if I understood the intending meaning, I could better answer the original query. I may have missed the clarification. I'll read back through the thread.

As for altrusim vs selfishness, I probably should have phrased my reference to "bank accounts" in a different way. I was speaking of job security, being able to pay the bills, and longevity in one's chosen career. I would think the ideal would almost have to carry implications of major import for most to even consider championing a cause at the risk of losing livelihood. (Championing a cause could be interpreted as nothing more than publishing a book because you believe in the message, despite the fact that publication carries significant risk to one's livelihood.)

The question was referring to one of your proverbial children, in fact, the promised child, the best one. I purposely didn't make this a "risk your life and security" question. It was more of a "how important is this too you?" question. Is your story so valuable, that you'd pay any price to get it read?

It's a lot like infamy. We all want our work to get into the hands of the masses. And because that seems like a high price (giving up anything you can get in return) most associate such actions with either "saving the world" type messages, where the goal of saving the world is worth losing your literary reward for. It sounds kind of "Mother Theresa-ish"

The only spin that I see, is people are selective about what they would make a sacrifice for. And their art simply isn't enough. I do believe however, that some people would make that trade. I say "rare" but not "never".

[Nateskate]

Thanks for the redirect, Reph (rhymes with ref = referee?). The altruism thing wasn't forwarded to be taken literally, but as a parallel. But I'll gladly let that one die off.

There's one more thing to consider about the original question. If we are so emotionally high on our work, won't we be setting ourselves up for a huge disappointment, even if the message is spread anonymously? After all, no matter how universal we think our messages are in this world, there may be those who will want to annoint us, but I'll bet there will be those who will want to nail us to t-shaped sticks as well. Particularly if the widespread distribution is indiscriminate. Is that scenario included in the "ultimate sacrifice," or just foregoing all acknowledgement and monetary gain? I'm not talking about a "change the world" thing here. We just get so close to our writing, it would be devastating to make the originally-mentioned sacrifice and then see the work panned.

Here's a somewhat twisted view of it. I'm a Solomon fan, not because I thought the guy was perfect, but he was thought provoking. There was a story told about two women friends, who both had infant children. They evidently slept in the same room. One of the children died, and the woman, whose child died, took the other's child as her own, and put her dead child in the sleeping woman's arms. Well, the other woman didn't fall for the trick. So a dispute arose over who was the living child's mother.

So, they took the child before the king, to ask him to settle the matter. He cut to the chase, and said, "Bring me a sword." Then he said, "Cut the child in half, and give a half to each mother." Obviously he wasn't going to do that. It was to test the responces of the women.

The one said, "That's fair." The other said, "No, give the child to her."

It was obvious that the child's mother would have given up her child if that was the only way to ensure the child lived. And so Solomon knew this was the mother, and gave her the child.

In a sense, she was willing to "lose" the child to save the child. Obviously, a book is a book, and not a child, but the question really comes down to how important you see your story, at least when I was writing this. Who would pay the ultimate price to give it life?

But I think I should have said "You have 100% chance of a hundred million reading it, if you give up all credit and all monetary rewards. The most you will have is a risk, a 25% possibility of a cult following and a five-figure deal. But you also have a 75% chance of winding up with nothing. Then what would you do?"

I wonder if people would have taken the sure thing vs the gamble.

[NeuroFizz]

It's pronounced "reef."

My apology if any offense was taken. My last name has an easy mispronunciation, and before the no-call list, I could always tell when a phone call was from a telemarketer. Also, kudos for the civic involvement.

[reph]

My apology if any offense was taken. My last name has an easy mispronunciation.... Also, kudos for the civic involvement.
No offense was. I can't blame people online for thinking the "e" is short. I do wonder, though, why so many assume I'm male. Thank you for the kudos.

[rich]

Truly, I've mixed up more genders on this board than nature should allow. I'm mostly right--mostly mind you--when folks have a gender avatar, but only fifty-fifty otherwise. (mothers day did improve my odds.)

I think it shows that ideas, slants on intellect, and attitudes aren't gender-specific. A picture of me would show that I'm boob-less and without much curvature between waist and hips. Unless we reveal a photo, it's harder to tell who's got the more complicated reproductive organs.

Reph, thought you were a guy until some post popped up somewhere that made it clear. It was kind of a sexy ephiphany for me, (don't worry, I'm 64 and haven't stalked anybody since I graduated kindergarten.)

However, the revelation that "reph" is pronounced "reef"...well, that's unforgivable.

[Nateskate]

This is a smaller example than what you're talking about, but I've put in many unpaid hours doing nonfiction writing over the past year as part of a group effort to protest and reform the business tax in my city. The material won't be published in the conventional sense; it consists, for example, of e-mails to city officials, arguing our side, and reports on meetings. Absolutely, I do this because I think I should.

That's an example of using your gifts to make a difference. I'm sure many people are willing to do that, even write a book.

When I first envisoned the question, I was picturing someone pouring their life into something. In a sense, their "Grapes of Wrath," and just giving it away. To me it would be a heart wrenching choice.

I deeply respect anyone who gives of themselves; and would count what you are doing in the same class, although I'm picturing a project that may take years to write.

[Nateskate]

Slowly. We had another meeting on April 28: three members of our group, one member of the City Council, her chief of staff, two of the city attorneys, three employees of the Finance and Revenue divisions, and two invited observers (the head of the local NWU chapter and an officer of another association that includes many freelancers). Now we're waiting for data I requested from Revenue that would enable us to propose an amnesty program that the city government can afford.

Folks, don't get into political action unless you're patient and bullheaded. It's something like writing a novel.

Yes, there are so many wars in life, one has to pick and choose wisely.

[NeuroFizz]

Yes, there are so many wars in life, one has to pick and choose wisely.

Good advice for raising kids, too.

[Nateskate]

Good advice for raising kids, too.

Absolutely. I've known people who've lost relationships with their kids because they couldn't separate the important from the trivial. Shaved hair grows out. Colored hair grows out. Weird clothes come off. Addictions tend to trip people up all their life. Poor self-esteem comes back to haunt the future.

In a sense, with kids, if you make everything a battle, you're guaranteed to make them see you as the enemy. In fairness, there is no harder job in the world than raising kids well. Some kids just come with a higher degree of stubborness, wildness or what makes parents pull out their hair. You make your mistakes and hope for God's mercy in the longrun. If they (the difficult to raise kids- and there are some) only came with instruction manuels it would be so much easier.

[CJWilkes]

My book is my life story, I do not go by my real name to protect the people mentioned there in... but it is not hard to find out who I really am. Yes, my story is that important and I do not care whether I make millions or $0. What I care is that the story is told and can help others who had to live through a similar nighmare... or help bring awareness to the lives we had to live.

[Nateskate]

My book is my life story, I do not go by my real name to protect the people mentioned there in... but it is not hard to find out who I really am. Yes, my story is that important and I do not care whether I make millions or $0. What I care is that the story is told and can help others who had to live through a similar nighmare... or help bring awareness to the lives we had to live.

It's pretty amazing how touching some people's stories are. A good number of people overcome adversity in some form, but some overcome truckloads.

[CJWilkes]

It's pretty amazing how touching some people's stories are. A good number of people overcome adversity in some form, but some overcome truckloads.
I remember, as a child, wondering if I was the only one having to deal with my type of trials. I truly wished that there were books I could read of others and what they did to overcome or survive. I am finding that people are starting to speak out against abuse and share their stories. Hard to read at times, but awareness is vital in my opinion. Not only is it important or vital that survivors read it, but the general public. Education and knowledge can be very redeaming.

You are very correct in your statement. I do not believe that it ends with their story... it begins. A voice is found and action against abuse begins :) These are the stories to stand behind, in my opinion. These are the stories that should never die. These are the books that should never be lost or set aside.

Obviously I feel strong about this one :)

[LightShadow]

Isn't that what writing is about? Stories of a character overcoming great odds?

[maestrowork]

Isn't that what writing is about? Stories of a character overcoming great odds?

That's only one kind of stories.

[azbikergirl]

CJWilkes, I admire your courage. I've been tempted to write the story of my own childhood abuse, but I worry about hurting the people I love. My abuser was famous and well-respected. If I 'came out' about it, all the good work he did in the world may be diminished. I've long since healed and forgiven him, and he died knowing I loved him deeply. I wish your book existed twenty years ago, when I had to deal with the emotional aftermath of survival all alone. I probably wouldn't have married the man I did. :/

[Nateskate]

I remember, as a child, wondering if I was the only one having to deal with my type of trials. I truly wished that there were books I could read of others and what they did to overcome or survive. I am finding that people are starting to speak out against abuse and share their stories. Hard to read at times, but awareness is vital in my opinion. Not only is it important or vital that survivors read it, but the general public. Education and knowledge can be very redeaming.

You are very correct in your statement. I do not believe that it ends with their story... it begins. A voice is found and action against abuse begins :) These are the stories to stand behind, in my opinion. These are the stories that should never die. These are the books that should never be lost or set aside.

Obviously I feel strong about this one :)

It's encouraging that you took what was evidently a bad situation, and tried to find redemption in it. I have a rather unique perspective about the whole situation.

When I was young, I felt like a victim, someone who was dealt a bad hand, and because of that I became fatalistic. I kept trying to get a better hand, but in my mind, my luck wasn't changing. And mentally you ask a thousand whys? "Why was I born to these parents?" And moreso, the "Why did I?" questions, implying I was given all of these traits that made my life harder instead of easier. Everyone else got a head start, I was robbed of a childhood and a future.

But that only leads to being stuck, because instead of being proactive and positive, we tend to feel like our past/parents stole something from us we can never get back. That is the worst type of fatalism, in that it gives the past control over our futures. Keys to a successful and happy lives can be learned. But people have to "un-learn" and change the dynamics of what they think.

The greatest lie is, "This is me...I can't help myself. I don't want to be this way, I just can't change."

Eventually everything did change, and I changed, my worldview changed. But I've noticed, more people stay in the ruts of the past than overcome them.

[aruna]

I'm going to ask a really tough question, and it applies more to something you consider a very meaningful story project, than your goal to be a writer.

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world

(Vs) You would know for a fact, if you took credit, the most you would have is a small cult appreciation, and a high five figure reward, but nothing more.

Which would you take? *

* Now, I'm not asking you to lay down your dreams of being an author in this choice, or any other writings.

And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it?

Inspiration for this question. There are many ancient texts that are precious to the world, and the author is uncertain or completely unknown. Would you be willing to join them for the cause? The ultimate sacrifice for your story.

I love this board! If ever I'm feeling bored i go back into the old, old threads and dig up some of the gems, like this one. Not having read the whole thread, I'd like to contribute:

My answer to this is yes, I certainly would. I absolutely believe that the really great thibgs are life are those done wothout ego. I like the notion that the greatest art, art that endures because it is above our petty little personalities and need for applause, is anonymous.

(When reading the question however, and the phrase "paying the ultimate price" came up, I immediataely thought we were being asked if we would die for our writing - I mean die, physically. The answer to that in my case is - probably - no.)

"And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it? "

the asnwer to this is no. But I hope that one day it will be yes.

[Supafly]

I would turn down the monetary part and get the message out. There are certain things that people around the world, not just in mainstream society, need to become more aware of. I think important fiction deals with these issues, which may be racism, sexism, war, human nature, human relationships, and other things of that nature. Personally, I don't write about anything other than these kind of subjects, because I want to help teach myself about these things so that some day I will be able to educate others. These are the issues that need to be discussed, either in literary form or otherwise. To be honest, I'm a rather cynical person anyway, but I'm also objective. I look at the varying point of views on these subjects. Perhaps if writers decided to take the path of enlightenment rather than monetary gain, the world of literature, which is quickly becoming saturated with worthless fluff, would be better.

[alanna]

that guy who invented the theory of evolution. No, not Darwin, the guy he stole it from. What’s his name.



Alfred Wallace, although the "theory" is that they both developed the theory at the same time, and Wallace just published first. Of course, Wallace then sent his manuscript to Darwin, before Darwin's Origin of Speciescame out.

Oh, and it depends for me. If the issue I'm wiritng about is close enough to me (say, the rights of minority religions) then I would gladly give it tot the public with no recognition or credit. However, some of my stuff I'd like to sell...you know, so I can afford to keep on writing the other stuff.

[Nateskate]

My answer to this is yes, I certainly would. I absolutely believe that the really great thibgs are life are those done wothout ego. I like the notion that the greatest art, art that endures because it is above our petty little personalities and need for applause, is anonymous.


Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. I've often believed it is noble to lay down something for what you believe in, if that is required. Obviously, laying down one's life is the ultimate sacrifice for any cause, but obviously, not all causes are equal or worth that. But certainly, someone who gives their life to save another, such as saving someone at your own risk.

Some people look at "Selflessness" as the ultimate spiritual state. However, I see "honor", both giving honor and receiving honor, as being potentially virtuous. So, giving up "honor" in and of itself doesn't make something virtuous. But giving up honor for a cause can be. In my mind the ultimate cause is obviously love for something.

Otherwise, someone else may not feel having an immortal story (so to speak) was a sacrifice, and simply wanted having an immortal story more than they wanted temporary fame.

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't jump at the chance to completely lay down a story I've invested my life in, and right now, I feel somewhat like I have invested much of my strength into a story.

At this point, if the question was, "Would you give up all monetary gain so that this story would be read by millions, or tens of millions," then I'd jump at the offer. However, to give up being the owner, creator, spokesman, for my story- to be an invisible author- that would be very painful for me.

[Nateskate]

I would turn down the monetary part and get the message out. There are certain things that people around the world, not just in mainstream society, need to become more aware of. I think important fiction deals with these issues, which may be racism, sexism, war, human nature, human relationships, and other things of that nature. Personally, I don't write about anything other than these kind of subjects, because I want to help teach myself about these things so that some day I will be able to educate others. These are the issues that need to be discussed, either in literary form or otherwise. To be honest, I'm a rather cynical person anyway, but I'm also objective. I look at the varying point of views on these subjects. Perhaps if writers decided to take the path of enlightenment rather than monetary gain, the world of literature, which is quickly becoming saturated with worthless fluff, would be better.

I agree that I could do this on topical issues, and I've actually done that to a degree in my life, using my writing to help people. So, I think it's really a virtue to give of yourself in some ways, especially in ways where you aren't looking for credit.

Perhaps my answer to my own quesiton reveals a great deal about what's in my heart. I've poured myself into my story series. At times I type in pain. I type when fatigued. I feel like this story isn't just an entertaining book, it's a pregnancy, in the sense of carrying a heavy burden, but also carrying a tremendous hope. But it feels like an unnatural pregnancy, one that has gone long past the due date, to the point where days go by where getting this finished consumes my every thought and I can't think of much else.

And to me, the last thing I think about is when I reach the point of delivery, giving my baby (the story) away, even if that is the best thing for the world, and even the best thing for the baby. That may sound like an obsession with a story, but I feel in some ways like I've poured much of myself into this thing, and some day it will be more than just a bunch of novels.

[Mistook]

I'm going to ask a really tough question, and it applies more to something you consider a very meaningful story project, than your goal to be a writer.

Have you ever had a story you believed in so much you'd pay the ultimate price to ensure wide-spread circulation, and you'd know for certain it would reach tens of millions?

But here is the price. 1) Your name would never apper on the cover. In fact, it would be "author unknown"-even your friends wouldn't know. 2) You would have no monetary reward, but it would reach the world

(Vs) You would know for a fact, if you took credit, the most you would have is a small cult appreciation, and a high five figure reward, but nothing more.

Which would you take? *

* Now, I'm not asking you to lay down your dreams of being an author in this choice, or any other writings.

And it begs the question, have you ever had something you wrote that was more important than you receiving gains and recognition from it?

Inspiration for this question. There are many ancient texts that are precious to the world, and the author is uncertain or completely unknown. Would you be willing to join them for the cause? The ultimate sacrifice for your story.

Okay, I can still aspire to be a paid, named author with other works, but you're asking if I've ever written something that is more important than credit or money - some text that would be precious to the world.

Secondly, for whatever reason if I publish in the normal way, I'll be wealthy, but will have denied millions living, and generations to come a real treasure.

Hmmm...

Well, if I had written such a thing, then yes. If it were the only way, then I'd gladly donate it to the public domain free of charge, even if the credit went to "Unknown".


Have I written such a thing? Am I writing one? I'm guess I'm striving for that. Certainly not on the level of a leap in human consciousness - like Relativity, or Monotheism or anything. I'd say at best, I might be taking some nebulous cultural concepts and bringing them into better focus. At the end of it, there could be some useful terms.

By terms I mean...

Before Orwell, people had to say, "An oppresive dictator who strives for omipotence and omnicience through the use of technology, and who seeks to supress freedom of thought by controlling language and education."

Now all we need to say is "Big Brother". We can also speak of things being "Orwellian".

Cervantes gave us the term "Quixotic". It sums up a rather complex set of personality traits, and gives them a certain connotation.

And for generic mysticism, which is at once both secular and sacred, we have no better term than, "The Force."

I'm definitely attempting to add a few new terms to the cultural vocabulary. More or less, that's the purpose of the story.

[Mistook]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. I've often believed it is noble to lay down something for what you believe in, if that is required. Obviously, laying down one's life is the ultimate sacrifice for any cause, but obviously, not all causes are equal or worth that. But certainly, someone who gives their life to save another, such as saving someone at your own risk.

Some people look at "Selflessness" as the ultimate spiritual state. However, I see "honor", both giving honor and receiving honor, as being potentially virtuous. So, giving up "honor" in and of itself doesn't make something virtuous. But giving up honor for a cause can be. In my mind the ultimate cause is obviously love for something.

Otherwise, someone else may not feel having an immortal story (so to speak) was a sacrifice, and simply wanted having an immortal story more than they wanted temporary fame.

Let's put it this way. I wouldn't jump at the chance to completely lay down a story I've invested my life in, and right now, I feel somewhat like I have invested much of my strength into a story.

At this point, if the question was, "Would you give up all monetary gain so that this story would be read by millions, or tens of millions," then I'd jump at the offer. However, to give up being the owner, creator, spokesman, for my story- to be an invisible author- that would be very painful for me.


I'd feel pain too at not getting credit. However I'd feel a lot more pain if credit went to somebody else. If the author is "unknown" I could live with it. If the credit and the money went to somebody who had nothing to do with it, then I think I'd probably just keel over and die.

As for the love aspect - as it relates to what I said about defining new cultural terms... I could let my story out there for free and sleep easy because the terms would help describe people, situations, and issues close to my heart. All those who might've been among my small cult of readers would find themselves better able to locate one another - better able to find understanding in the world, and better able to gain recognition for their own struggles and offerings. I'd die a happy man if things like that came to pass, whether I got the credit or not.

[Nateskate]

I'd feel pain too at not getting credit. However I'd feel a lot more pain if credit went to somebody else. If the author is "unknown" I could live with it. If the credit and the money went to somebody who had nothing to do with it, then I think I'd probably just keel over and die.

As for the love aspect - as it relates to what I said about defining new cultural terms... I could let my story out there for free and sleep easy because the terms would help describe people, situations, and issues close to my heart. All those who might've been among my small cult of readers would find themselves better able to locate one another - better able to find understanding in the world, and better able to gain recognition for their own struggles and offerings. I'd die a happy man if things like that came to pass, whether I got the credit or not.

Good to see you around!

I do feel the same way. And perhaps because I feel I have given a great deal in other ways, perhaps with this it would be so much harder. It makes me want to evaluate "why" it matters so much. In part, I want to talk about my story after the series is published, and use it as a platform to speak about so many things. That has always been in my mind, and a part of what I've envisioned. So perhaps that is why I feel it would be so hard to let go. I'd never get a chance to explain so many things.

[Ken Schneider]

How much do I believe in my story?

With all my heart and soul. If not, why write it?

[Nateskate]

How much do I believe in my story?

With all my heart and soul. If not, why write it?

That's great, hopefully I can read it someday. If it's already published, and you let me know where to find it, I'll give it a look.

I'm not sure that all people believe in their stories. Some have said they are their own worst critic, and need someone to encourage them not to give up and throw it away.

[triceretops]

I totally believed in my script from day one. After four months, I just finished it last night. I lived and breathed this sucka every day and night. Now I have to edit it.

Triceratops

[Nateskate]

I totally believed in my script from day one. After four months, I just finished it last night. I lived and breathed this sucka every day and night. Now I have to edit it.

Triceratops

Awesome. Is this the Sci Fi story? I can't wait to hear how it goes. Thanks for the update.

Nate

[Mistook]

Good to see you around!

I do feel the same way. And perhaps because I feel I have given a great deal in other ways, perhaps with this it would be so much harder. It makes me want to evaluate "why" it matters so much. In part, I want to talk about my story after the series is published, and use it as a platform to speak about so many things. That has always been in my mind, and a part of what I've envisioned. So perhaps that is why I feel it would be so hard to let go. I'd never get a chance to explain so many things.

Thanks, Nate. Good to be seen around :)

You could always pose as a "leading expert" on the analysis of the book nobody realizes you wrote.

Then again, you might be suprised by the interpretations coming from other corners. Other people might see things in your story that you never realized were there.

[Nateskate]

Thanks, Nate. Good to be seen around :)

You could always pose as a "leading expert" on the analysis of the book nobody realizes you wrote.

Then again, you might be suprised by the interpretations coming from other corners. Other people might see things in your story that you never realized were there.

Listening to someone pontificating about the meaning of something I wrote, would be offensive to me, especially if they were way off base.

When I was playing in a band, I was the primary song writer, and at the time, everyone wasn't given a mic, unless they sang. (Which I don't). And this guy would go on and on about the meaning of my songs, as if he wrote them. And I'd be stewing inside, "That's not what the song means!" Ask me if you want to explain the song, and at least I can explain it you. It would be much worse with a book.

[Pat~]

Given the 2 choices, with no variation, I'd take the first one--anonyminity, if the message of the book I wrote could be read by the whole world. I have enough money, and the message is more important. I wrote it for the message, not the money. (In fact, I continued to write it when I thought I had a fatal illness. I wrote faster. :) ).

Oops...just realized this probably doesn't qualify, though--this is the Novel Writing thread, and mine was Non Fiction. Sorry!

[Nateskate]

Given the 2 choices, with no variation, I'd take the first one--anonyminity, if the message of the book I wrote could be read by the whole world. I have enough money, and the message is more important. I wrote it for the message, not the money. (In fact, I continued to write it when I thought I had a fatal illness. I wrote faster. :) ).

Oops...just realized this probably doesn't qualify, though--this is the Novel Writing thread, and mine was Non Fiction. Sorry!

I hope you are in much better health than you thought? Woo, facing eternity puts a whole new face on merits of fame and such.

By the way, Novels can be Fiction and Non-fiction, so I think you can still hang here, and hope you do.

[Mistook]

Listening to someone pontificating about the meaning of something I wrote, would be offensive to me, especially if they were way off base.

When I was playing in a band, I was the primary song writer, and at the time, everyone wasn't given a mic, unless they sang. (Which I don't). And this guy would go on and on about the meaning of my songs, as if he wrote them. And I'd be stewing inside, "That's not what the song means!" Ask me if you want to explain the song, and at least I can explain it you. It would be much worse with a book.

Have you ever written a song where you didn't really want the true meaning to be seen? I think that's part of the fun sometimes, to express something private or potentially controversial in a way that sounds like something else.

I've done it before. Most people just tap their feet and don't worry about the lyrics. To the few who pick up on a deeper meaning, I usually give an evasive answer and a wink. It's never any fun to spoil the mystery.

Either way, I don't mind an oustide interpretation, as long as it fits. You can't twist one phrase and hold it up as meaning something if it doesn't jibe with every other phrase in the song. But if somebody can show how the whole thing makes a sense that I didn't intend, then it's fair, I think.

[Ronda]

Here is my question in return:

Do you believe enough in your work that you KNOW beyond any doubt that you will find the right publisher who will, in fact, pay you for it?

That takes the same issue and turns it inside-out. I "give away" free articles to various causes and in certain situations, but the work dearest to me is something I know will be published for pay, with my name on it, in due course, as long as I keep my tenacity up.

Best of success to all of us in our ventures!

Warmly,
Ronda Del Boccio
Visit me on the web at www.RelaxWithRonda.com (http://www.RelaxWithRonda.com)

[scribbler1382]

Listening to someone pontificating about the meaning of something I wrote, would be offensive to me, especially if they were way off base.

While I can understand your feelings, there's certain reconciliations you have to make if you're going to put things into the hands of the public. They paid their money and it's their right to feel or say whatever they want. And that's kind of cool. If someone gets something out of my work, whether intended or not, it's succeeded in its mission, in my view. And let's face it, the first thing you're going to do when your book comes out is read the reviews. Once the crying's over you can write a letter to straighten them out. :)

[Nateskate]

While I can understand your feelings, there's certain reconciliations you have to make if you're going to put things into the hands of the public. They paid their money and it's their right to feel or say whatever they want. And that's kind of cool. If someone gets something out of my work, whether intended or not, it's succeeded in its mission, in my view. And let's face it, the first thing you're going to do when your book comes out is read the reviews. Once the crying's over you can write a letter to straighten them out. :)

I was only thinking in the sense of my work being "Author Unknown". It's not that I imagine having to go around defending any opinion. Rather, I think I'd like to have a somewhat authoritative say on things. So if they tell me the tree in my story represents Baskin and Robins Ice Cream, I could say with conviction, "No it doesn't; unless of course, you buy me a cone."

[Kiva Wolfe]

I love pop quizzes, especially the thought-provoking ones that raise more questions.

I could care less what my family and friends think about my writing. I do not write for them, I write for me. I always believe in what I write and I love the craft. I hope for an advance, don't expect it, but it is my goal.

Now, if I got offered a five-figure advance to write as an unknown for a story I believed in, I'd take the money, head off to Bimini, start my new project, and figure that after about thirty years, I could always pull a Deep Throat-ish coming out party and people wouldn't mind.

I do have strong ethics, so if I didn't believe in the work, but felt it would change the world for the better, I'd still take the project on, whether I got paid or not, and I still wouldn't mind that I wrote it as an unknown. If it was something that would deliberately hurt people, no amount of money offered would make me write it. Would I actively work to keep it from being written...sounds like the beginnings of a plot for my alternate project.

This was fun. I hope you ask another question.

[Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse]

I've got to be honest. When I was younger I used to think that there was some room in the world which all the clever people went to, and evryone would have shifts, and everyone would be asking 'how can we make the world better.' I wanted to be in that room. Then, when I got older, I realised how can I learn everything? Whatever I have to say has most likely been said already...I guess if I come across something original in my work, then yes, I would sacrifice my money and name for it gladly.

[Nateskate]

I've got to be honest. When I was younger I used to think that there was some room in the world which all the clever people went to, and evryone would have shifts, and everyone would be asking 'how can we make the world better.' I wanted to be in that room. Then, when I got older, I realised how can I learn everything? Whatever I have to say has most likely been said already...I guess if I come across something original in my work, then yes, I would sacrifice my money and name for it gladly.

I still believe in that. However, I've modified my expectations. It's sort of like one of those Ethics "10 People in a boat and 9 life preserver" questions. I think I'd have jumped out of the boat and ended the dilema.

As I've gotten older, I've realized that the best we can do is have an influence and impact on people. In fact, I'll use an example that I hope illustrates a core belief I have, and one that might come through my story:

Frodo doesn't save the world. When he was dead and gone, evil continued. He, Gandalf, and Aragorn were either dead and gone, having done what they could, but evil lived on.

And so, there was a need for another Frodo to rise up, and another Aragorn. In fact, in a metaphorical way, we need tens of thousands of Frodos, or the world will suffer. So, we ALL have the potential for influence in a limited time and space.

So, what if we can impact ten lives with our craft? What if it is ten thousand? What if it is ten million? What if for a time, we briefly influence a nation?

Well, the point is we may not influence a nation, but boy, if we make a permanent positive difference in one hundred people's lives, it hasn't been a waste of time. You know, like a family that adopts a kid and pulls them out of a life of destitution, or a big brother/ big sister who takes a kid on the way to ruin, and turns their life around? Actually changing lives doesn't take super-human efforts, its just caring enough to make any effort.

So, I don't think it is grandiose to have some hope of trying to make a difference for some people.

Welcome to "The Room".

[Nateskate]

I love pop quizzes, especially the thought-provoking ones that raise more questions.

I could care less what my family and friends think about my writing. I do not write for them, I write for me. I always believe in what I write and I love the craft. I hope for an advance, don't expect it, but it is my goal.

Now, if I got offered a five-figure advance to write as an unknown for a story I believed in, I'd take the money, head off to Bimini, start my new project, and figure that after about thirty years, I could always pull a Deep Throat-ish coming out party and people wouldn't mind.

I do have strong ethics, so if I didn't believe in the work, but felt it would change the world for the better, I'd still take the project on, whether I got paid or not, and I still wouldn't mind that I wrote it as an unknown. If it was something that would deliberately hurt people, no amount of money offered would make me write it. Would I actively work to keep it from being written...sounds like the beginnings of a plot for my alternate project.

This was fun. I hope you ask another question.

You sound like a good-hearted person. I think I could do it. But when it is a WIP that has taken years, I think it becomes a more difficult question for me. If it was one book in twenty, it would seem easier to do.

[Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse]

I think I'd have jumped out of the boat and ended the dilema.

If ever we all go out for a boatride, I bagsy next to you.

I've realized that the best we can do is have an influence and impact on people. . So, we ALL have the potential for influence in a limited time and space.

I completely agree - we ALL have it - its our base that makes us all the same. I just hope that our influence is positive. But that is not for us to decide, just do what you think is right and let time say what it may.


Welcome to "The Room"
:hi:
Thanks for letting me in.

[Pat~]

I hope you are in much better health than you thought? Woo, facing eternity puts a whole new face on merits of fame and such.

By the way, Novels can be Fiction and Non-fiction, so I think you can still hang here, and hope you do.

Thanks :) . (And yes, thankfully I'm in very good health despite the quirky scan.)