Must we stop reading?!

Nateskate · Nov 9, 2008

I'm really getting frustrated. I'm finding that the more I read in my Genre, the more I find that people have parallels to my "Unique" story.

Lol, I like to tease that Fantasy Authors built a time machine, went into the future, stole my ideas, and brought them back and used them. It began with that theif Tolkien! lol- just kidding.

Now I'm thinking that people will blame me for stealing ideas I made up long before I read them in other people's novels. Everything from the name of a horse to some of the underlying rules of my Universe.

I guess that's inevitable. We're influenced by much of the same ancient lore- where I think many ideas were first birthed.

The phrase comes to mind "Plausible Deniability"- I'm actually putting off reading a friends fantasy novel series because I don't want it said that I stole their ideas. I did not read that book!

Who else gets frustrated when they find a mirror of their Universe- however small the similarities???

Oh Poop!

ChaosTitan · Nov 9, 2008

I admit I've been frustrated by that in the past. But the way I see it, plausible deniability only goes so far. With books, you really can't prove you've never read something, so why worry about it? I've let far too many good stories slip through my fingers, because I've been afraid of being accused of stealing.

Thing is, there are only so many stories out there. Each one is yet another retelling of something else. Some are more blatant than others. It's unavoidable, really.

But if I continue to deny myself the pleasure of reading other books in my chosen genre, how on earth am I going to know what's out there? How will I know what's been done to death, or what still has a lot of possibilities?

Don't stop reading.

Nateskate · Nov 9, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
I admit I've been frustrated by that in the past. But the way I see it, plausible deniability only goes so far. With books, you really can't prove you've never read something, so why worry about it? I've let far too many good stories slip through my fingers, because I've been afraid of being accused of stealing.

Thing is, there are only so many stories out there. Each one is yet another retelling of something else. Some are more blatant than others. It's unavoidable, really.

But if I continue to deny myself the pleasure of reading other books in my chosen genre, how on earth am I going to know what's out there? How will I know what's been done to death, or what still has a lot of possibilities?

Don't stop reading.

I know you're right. But I'm still not reading my friend's book until my first books come out. I don't want to ever risk it impacting our friendship, because when he first mentioned to me what his novels were about (before they went into print), I knew there were parallels.

If I read them, I couldn't say they didn't impact me on a subconscious level. And I wouldn't even know if that were true. So I decided to wait to read his books.

But I'll continue to read others, because I simply can't stop.

Ken Schneider · Nov 9, 2008

And Tolkien was copied by Terry Brooks, and Brooks was copied by....

dclary · Nov 9, 2008

I think it's the exact opposite. If Paolini had been more widely read when he decided he wanted to write a book, he might have chosen a story that wasn't so readily recognized as someone else's.

The best thing you get from reading heavily in your genre is that you see what works and what doesn't work. You get ideas that you can use in your own way, and you see other ideas that just don't play.

I knew an amateur screenwriter once who had this problem. He never understood that his sci-fi scripts were terribly dated. He was writing movies I'd seen in the 70s, thinking he had amazingly fresh and new ideas.

Don · Nov 9, 2008

This kind of ties in with the thread I just started about borrowing a novel's structure. I guess there's no pure originality; even if all the ideas have been used, the way you use them will be uniquely your own.

Stunted · Nov 9, 2008

I sometimes have that problem, but usually, the similarities just disappear as I edit, so it's rarely an issue.

The only time I actually had to change something was when I read Twilight. I was writing a YA novel with vampires, and my MC was named Jasper, and Twilight had a minor character named Jasper. At first I resisted, but I knew that everyone would think I'd copied (or that I was trying to spin off or something.)

I also had a character named Blondie, and then later, there was a Twilight character named Blondie. It was pretty annoying.

But someday, I'll be the one stealing people's names! (Not really...you know what I mean.)

scarletpeaches · Nov 9, 2008

dclary said:
I think it's the exact opposite. If Paolini had been more widely read when he decided he wanted to write a book, he might have chosen a story that wasn't so readily recognized as someone else's...

Ah yes, that ancient classic, Lord of the Star Wars.

Completely with you on that one. The only way your work can be accused of being derivative is if your pool of resources is limited. Read everything you can lay your hands on and you'll have a far bigger resource-pool from which to draw. Read good books, bad books, big ones, thin ones...See for yourself what works and what doesn't.

Unless you're Paolini. In which case JUST STOP NAO.

Orchestra · Nov 10, 2008

Writers should read widely and focus especially on the good stuff. This excludes most of your standard Medievalesque fantasy which these days is, quite frankly, damaged beyond repair. Some people like to go on about how there are no new ideas or how we're only retelling previous stories. These people aren't usually very good writers. Taking worn down motifs, attitudes and story situations at face value and recycling them without a hint of original poetic vision is a sign of a talentless hack.

Ideas that are common enough to be found in majority of fantastical fiction are not worth stealing, really. Who came up with them first is meaningless, when they propably shouldn't be used in the first place. If writing inside a set genre is limiting you in this way, forget marketing categories and write like you mean it.

Oh, and please don't take offence, Nateskate. I obviously haven't read your work and don't know if this applies to you personally.

Nakhlasmoke · Nov 10, 2008

Also - read widely outside your genre.

That way you can steal ideas across the board.

This works for me, anyway.

*evil grin*

tehuti88 · Nov 10, 2008

Well, I don't read much fantasy, so there's little chance of me stealing something from another fantasy writer.

Though I confess that's not the reason I don't read much fantasy.

I think it'd have to be something REALLY BIG and noticeable for me to feel discouraged from writing a story, once I see that someone has done something similar. My stories are based on mythology. I. e., stuff that's already been done before. So of course it's not original (though my take on it is). I accept that. *I* know I'm not ripping anyone off, so if something similar happens to show up in someone else's work, oh well. Kind of disheartening but it happens. (I have to also confess though, the reason I write the stuff I do is because nobody else is, that I can see! So perhaps I've just lucked out so far...?)

If the similarity is REALLY big and noticeable, though, I might get discouraged. I guess it depends on how much I've invested in that story. I started a story once about animals and gave up after a while when I realized it was a lot similar to "Watership Down"--not similar enough to be accused of a ripoff, but close enough. Perhaps I didn't invest enough thought into making it more original. But with my current stories, I doubt I'd stop work on them even if I were to find something similar, because I've put a lot of MY hard work into these stories, I KNOW I didn't steal anyone else's ideas, and they probably wouldn't end up as similar as they seem. Things change.

I wouldn't really curb my reading habits to avoid stealing ideas, even unintentionally, because so far I haven't stolen any really big ideas except from mythology. And like I said I don't read much fantasy. I guess I just don't feel the need to borrow any of the bigger ideas (because, truthfully, they bore me--the reason I don't read much fantasy), and so far I haven't run into anything hugely like mine (the reason why I write the stuff I do!).

Now, if I were to find a published book based on Ojibwa mythology or the myth of Manabozho or something, then I might shy away from reading it...at first.

Though I've already written my version of that so I'd probably end up reading it anyway!

MumblingSage · Nov 10, 2008

When I was a very young writer with some peculiar values, I was thrilled when I saw ideas similar to mine in published universes--look! Someone else is doing it! It MUST be good!

Then I reached the state you're in.

After freaking out a bit, I did stop reading fantasy fiction. I moved to historicals, mostly, and only stray back to the fantasy genre for really good authors or unique mileus which I probably won't take anything from. I don't know if I'll ever return to the bulk of fantasy writing. I don't really miss it, possibly because I get full helpings of fantasy by beta-reading and reviewing the unpublished fantasy novels of others

.

Chris Huff · Nov 10, 2008

Ideas are not copyrightable. You can use the same idea a thousand times, in a thousand different ways, in a thousand different books. You just can't use the same words, in the same order, to layout the same idea.

Everything's been done. It's only a matter of mashing up a few oldies in a new way. Oh, and writing it well.

Nateskate · Nov 10, 2008

Ken Schneider said:
And Tolkien was copied by Terry Brooks, and Brooks was copied by....

That's true. But Brooks tone is darker than Tolkiens. It's more about "magic" while I think Tolkien's was more about avoiding the temptations of magic. It's much easier to like Tolkien's characters.

Nateskate · Nov 10, 2008

Chris Huff said:
Ideas are not copyrightable. You can use the same idea a thousand times, in a thousand different ways, in a thousand different books. You just can't use the same words, in the same order, to layout the same idea.

Everything's been done. It's only a matter of mashing up a few oldies in a new way. Oh, and writing it well.

Lol, I tried to be unique. I really did. But along the way I had to make decisions- use this world or another. Floating Turtles were already taken.

dclary · Nov 10, 2008

Nateskate said:
That's true. But Brooks tone is darker than Tolkiens. It's more about "magic" while I think Tolkien's was more about avoiding the temptations of magic. It's much easier to like Tolkien's characters.

Well, yeah. When you name your central wizard after a 14-step addiction program, you're only asking for trouble.

dclary · Nov 10, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
Also - read widely outside your genre.

That way you can steal ideas across the board.

This works for me, anyway.

*evil grin*

Worked for "A Bug's Life."

Unless you'd already seen "The Seven Samurai."

Nateskate · Nov 10, 2008

Orchestra said:
Writers should read widely and focus especially on the good stuff. This excludes most of your standard Medievalesque fantasy which these days is, quite frankly, damaged beyond repair. Some people like to go on about how there are no new ideas or how we're only retelling previous stories. These people aren't usually very good writers. Taking worn down motifs, attitudes and story situations at face value and recycling them without a hint of original poetic vision is a sign of a talentless hack.

Ideas that are common enough to be found in majority of fantastical fiction are not worth stealing, really. Who came up with them first is meaningless, when they propably shouldn't be used in the first place. If writing inside a set genre is limiting you in this way, forget marketing categories and write like you mean it.

Oh, and please don't take offence, Nateskate. I obviously haven't read your work and don't know if this applies to you personally.

Lol, I'm wondering if there is anything new under the sun? Solomon was right. However, I gave it a shot. I decided to start from scratch. When I found myself with dictionaries of backstory- to explain everything, I added more conventional elements. I was taking way too much time to justify this and that, the elements of the Universe and their interactions. It was interesting but interferred with the story.

I determined, "No Creation Story". Well, after all the fuss (and writing out the complete main story) I did a creation story but decided not to fall into the pitfalls of the Silmarillion. Fast forward, I wound up re-writing the main novel series using all the backstory as fill.

Orchestra · Nov 11, 2008

If you squint your eyes narrow enough, everything looks the same. If you open your eyes wide and pay attention, the world reveals itself in it's endess complexity and variation.

There's always new ways to write, explore themes, capture human behavior. Fiction written today would have not been possible a hundread years ago. Getting a grasp of all the literary possibilies is a tough skill to master, but it becomes easier with practice and confidence.

rainboy · Nov 11, 2008

Nateskate said:
If I read them, I couldn't say they didn't impact me on a subconscious level.

And if you don't read them, you can't say they didn't impact you on a telepathic level. So you might as well read them.

Albedo · Nov 11, 2008

dclary said:
I think it's the exact opposite. If Paolini had been more widely read when he decided he wanted to write a book, he might have chosen a story that wasn't so readily recognized as someone else's.

The best thing you get from reading heavily in your genre is that you see what works and what doesn't work. You get ideas that you can use in your own way, and you see other ideas that just don't play.

I knew an amateur screenwriter once who had this problem. He never understood that his sci-fi scripts were terribly dated. He was writing movies I'd seen in the 70s, thinking he had amazingly fresh and new ideas.

Yes. My dear old grandmother keeps telling me about this idea she has for a science fiction novel, that I should drop everything I'm doing and start working on right now. In it, robots kill all humans and form a perfect robotic society, that lasts for centuries, until...
the robots all start to rust! THE END.

Thanks, Nan. I'd say she just remembers reading that in Amazing Stories circa 1942, but I don't think she's ever read a single genre piece.

So yeah, read everything. Insulating yourself from the world of fiction won't help you stay original. But if you know what's been written, you can be unoriginal with style.

mab · Nov 11, 2008

I think western culture puts an unusual amount of emphasis on the individual, hence our obsession with the inspired writer telling 'unique' stories. I imagine that in pre-literate cultures everyone would share, build on, combine, improve, and add twists to old favourites without ever worrying how unique it was. I think that as writers we are like magpies, picking up a bit here, a bit there- whether from books, films or people we know. Of course I don't advocate plagiarism, its the way the story is told that proves your skill as a writer, rather than the initial idea. Remember the Worst Witch? Kid's novels about a school for witches...then there's Harry Potter, very similar idea, but tells the story in a totally different way. I actually think its disrespectful to the writers, artists and mythmakers that went before us to deny their influence completely.

So don't stop reading...maybe read a little more widely as others have advised.

Gillhoughly · Nov 11, 2008

1) You are ALWAYS going to find common themes throughout any genre. There's no escape.

2) You will ALWAYS find specific ideas used in any genre. Again, no escape.

As Joe Bob Briggs said:

There are no new ideas. There are only individual expressions of old ideas. If you and I write the same thing, it will come out in two versions so different that no one will notice, but both versions will be extremely similar to things written 3,000 years ago. To put it another way, your imagination doesn’t belong to you--it’s just something you’re entrusted with for a time.

That said, STOP READING IN YOUR GENRE UNTIL AFTER YOUR BOOK'S DONE.

That's something I learned from Fred Saberhagen, and danged if it doesn't work.

When I'm working on a fantasy, I read hard boiled mysteries. When I'm working on a noir mystery, I read romances, etc.

Years back Fred was asked (since he wrote the REALLY good Dracula books) what he thought of Anne Rice. He said he'd never read her and probably never would since he had a contract for more Dracula novels.

This shocked his audience, myself included. Rice was the big dog back then. Everyone was looking to her as an example of How To Write Vamps. It hadn't occurred to anyone that maybe she didn't know everything. (Oh, look, she doesn't!)

Dear and wise Fred (I love that man's work) explained that if he read her stuff, then he might leave out or unconsciously put in things she'd come up with, and then his work might not reflect his specific voice.

After a bit that made sense to me.

This wisdom was backed up by novelist Ardath Mayhar (over 60 novels sold) who kicked out 20 pages a day while minding the cash register of her East Texas bookstore. She always read outside her genre so her work wouldn't suffer from "literary incest."

You can tell when some writers only read IN their genre and never venture a peek at others. They use the same phrases without thinking twice and recycle the same old ideas and situations. It is rampant in the romance genre, sadly, certainly contributing to the trope that they're "all the same."

Learn to avoid that trap NOW, and your writing will really stand out from the crowd!

Good luck!

Hummingbird · Nov 11, 2008

I was at that point where I thought that I should stop reading a bit back. My brothers pulled me into a couple wonderful stories that I could not put down and I have decided to keep reading since.

Reading really does help to see what works and what doesn't. I also feel like it broadens the perspective of what I feel that I can write. The more I learn the more I can write.

I have not stopped to try to see what kind of story my current WIP may be like. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or a bad idea to do that. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Orchestra · Nov 11, 2008

Gillhoughly said:
When I'm working on a fantasy, I read hard boiled mysteries. When I'm working on a noir mystery, I read romances, etc.

Besides avoiding exposure to the all-too-common tropes of your genre (or of a specific author), this has the added benefit of gaining something from other genres. A secondary-world, pseudo-Medieval fantasy written in the vein of noir mysteries is more likely to be interesting than one written in the vein of secondary-world, pseudo-Medieval fantasy stories.

Although, I don't think this is all that necessary. I've had no problems reading similar stories to those I write myself. As a writer, I have my sins and shortcomings same as everyone else, but I've never been criticised of being unoriginal. Sometimes I pick a specific style model for a short story, try to tell a story as Hemingway or Joyce would do it. The trick is to choose other elements of the story from different contexts. What kind of science fiction story would Marcel Proust write? What if you had a Hemingway-esque objective narrator tell the story of Romeo and Juliet set in East L.A. in the late sixties but with a bit of Aztlan magic thrown in the mix?

Must we stop reading?!

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