Violence

Heh... well.... I have a torture scene that goes on much longer than that, although to be fair, I try not to overkill. It's centered more on the interaction between my MC and the interrogator, so I hope it's mostly okay....

it's that sex scene I still might have to work on.

^.^

I'm not the best person to ask on that one, but you know, if you're screwed, I'm screwed.

Just my opinion, but the best torture scenes are from outside the room. Describe the torture setup, as the door closes on your view. Describe the groans and agonizing screams. Even use the sounds of the implements of torture, but nothing visual.

Replies in that thread are not representative of the entire reading audience. Violence, like any other element that turns people off, has its place in narrative. Gratuitous violence that doesn't have any purpose toward the story, though...different story.

My own books are pretty violent, and not much of it happens off screen. But it's a little inevitable when the heroine is being constantly attacked by vampires, goblins, and the like. Heads will roll.

Raphee said:

BTW other than this there are no other graphic sex or violence scenes in the entire novel.

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This is the point that I think is most telling--if you don't have anything else of the same tone in the story, it might well come off as far more jarring than in a book where there was tons of graphic violence that could build up a reader's "immunity" to this.

Personally, I'm not turned off by any well-written graphic scene (sex or violence). That said, it's got to fit within the tone of the story.

You might consider looking at how to rework it so it's still there for the subplot but not necessarily on-page (ie: hero is looking at the body or visiting the victim in the hospital) so it's not so graphic but gets the point across.

Raphee said:

Now I'm worried if I should keep it or not. It appears to be a big turn off to many readers.

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Imagine if Quentin Tarantino had read that thread and decided to cut out the torture scene in Reservoir Dogs. Remember that many people won't like your book, but many will. Not even classics are liked by everyone.

Can't please anyone-- but if you're worried I totally second the suggestion to keep the scene largely "off-page" to make it easier to palate.

But again, you can't please everyone. You might just leave it and let your agent worry about it. =)

As far as torture goes I think it depends what reaction you want to get out of the audience. A direct blow by blow of the torture scene will arouse different emotions than a closed door scene. One would probably be better than the other depending on your story, though it sounds like a lot of the book doesn't involve violence so describing torture might be overkill.

On the other hand, part of the point of my nearly complete WIP is the way repeated violence sort of decays parts of people's psyches, and it it very graphic most of the time.

Yup. In fact, the replies in that thread are only representative of the opinions of people who are attracted by thread titles like "things you hate to see in novels." I read a ton of novels and I don't even have a list of things I hate.

ChaosTitan said:

Replies in that thread are not representative of the entire reading audience.

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I have a gang rape scene in my novel, but it's staying unless the person who wants to publish asks me to take it out.

As others have said, not everyone will like everything you write. Serve the story first, and yourself second. If you think the scene belongs, leave it in. Readers are too diverse and fickle to try to predict what they will or will not accept in a given novel.

I, too, am concerned about whether the torture scene will violate the overall tone of the novel. A single violent or highly sexual scene does tend to stand out and jar.

DeleyanLee said:

This is the point that I think is most telling--if you don't have anything else of the same tone in the story, it might well come off as far more jarring than in a book where there was tons of graphic violence that could build up a reader's "immunity" to this.

Personally, I'm not turned off by any well-written graphic scene (sex or violence). That said, it's got to fit within the tone of the story.

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I must agree with this. I haven't anything against violence in books if it belongs there. The torture scene itself would not bother me if it belonged (i. e., isn't just thrown in there to grab the reader). But the fact that you say there's NOTHING else like it anywhere else in your story jars me. Somebody is reading a pretty tame story and then right near the end up pops a torture scene? The fact that it comes so far out of left field would bother me, far more than the fact that it's a torture scene.

That doesn't mean you have to drop it, just that you might want to consider how well it fits in with the tone of the rest of your book. If you decide to keep it, you might need to darken the rest of the story at least a tad, so the torture scene reads more like it "belongs." The way you describe it now, it sounds like it'll be out of place.

Like Chaostitan mentioned, if it's important to the story, leave it.

Sometimes, though, the mere threat of violence can have an effect.
In my second novel (currently shopping for an agent), there's a psychotic cannibal who comes eerily close to a three-course meal. Having him actually do the deed wouldn't have done as much as coming close to it.

If it's important to the novel, by all means leave it in.

I have a WIP that pretty much starts with torture, but it's necessary to the rest of the story. My poor main character, what I put him through! But I make it up to him by the end.

The can't please all the people all the time issue applies 100% to this. If torture, violence or sex matter to the story and they fit, then I'd tell any writer to have some balls and leave them in. Whether we like these issues or disapprove of them doesn't matter. The story matters.

Well, if it's towards the end of a relatively non-violent book, then it could be really really powerful if there are just a few gruesome details. That would be awesome.

The if-it-works-it-works maxim notwithstanding . . . I've been surprised at how many agent infos tell me that they're specifically not interested in violence against women or children. As if this doesn't happen in the world. Or I guess it takes a certain breed of agent to be capable of representing a certain breed of writer capable of writing about it?

Adam Hammonds said:

The if-it-works-it-works maxim notwithstanding . . . I've been surprised at how many agent infos tell me that they're specifically not interested in violence against women or children. As if this doesn't happen in the world. Or I guess it takes a certain breed of agent to be capable of representing a certain breed of writer capable of writing about it?

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Violence against women and children (and by this, I'm assuming on-screen, detailed rape, molestation, gutting, etc...) are definitely personal squicks for people. Even agents are allowed to have preferences in what they will or won't read/represent. You want an agent who loves and champions your book. If an agent can't stomach the content, they aren't the best agent for you.

Just wanted to echo what everyone else is saying. Many famous novels have stand out scenes that involve shocking occurences, so as long as yours are not gratuitous do not be afraid of them. You can't freely express yourself while being afraid that someone will get offended, in writing anymore than in life! Readers can sense when an author is holding out on them. You'll never write a book everyone loves but it is much better to write a book half the people love and half the people hate than one which elicts no passion in anyone, for both artistic integrity and sales purposes. And that's an extreme way of putting it as I really don't think that many people mind violence that much in books, most people don't find it half as brutal on text than on TV (unless you write that scene in blood or something, hey there's an idea... ). There are very few taboos left these days, and torture isn't really one anymore.

You want your characters to be believable and independent right? Well, believable and independent people don't hold back in case some omnipresent person reading about them might get put off by what they do! They consider the prize, their own moral code, and do whatever makes sense to them, nothing else matters! As an author your job is to introduce people to your world and point them to places of interest, but you should never censor it. Good luck with it.

context

The best torture scene I've ever read was in a book called Man of Bone by Alan Cumyn. It's very graphic and intense, but so's the rest of the novel.

Personally, I think that torture or violence, when relevant to the plot, is used in a novel it's okay. When it's used as gimmickry intended to shock the reader, it's pointless.