Soul?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
I can't help but mix my recent study of the human brain with the idea of Soul. The Soul is a vital part of Christian doctrine, so I find myself wondering how Christians combine a working knowledge of the human brain with a belief in the soul.

Since, scientifically, we know what part of the brain controls personality, what room is left for Soul? Where do you believe the Soul actually resides? What do you opine a soul is made from? As our understanding of the human body improves, do you believe we'll actually find the soul?

Or do you believe that the Soul is a composite, the result of various chemicals and the activities of certain neurons? Would a belief such as this interfere with Christian doctrine?

-B
 
Last edited:

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
Well, I was trying to comment while munching on a bagel and after I posted a one-line response realized that wouldn't hack it. :eek: So...here's a hopefully better response, though I'm not sure if it'll be any clearer!

I believe the soul has much to do with that part of a person we call "personality"--and is why we find it so hard to comprehend it when someone has died. It's almost as though we 'know' that couldn't be the end of his/her unique existence. I think the soul has a relationship to the brain, though not likely to be found or located in there in a physical sense.

I think it is related to the brain, though, in that it encompasses our likes, dislikes, emotions, temptations, weaknesses, aspirations, loves, etc. I think it's the soul of a person that communicates imperceptibly with others, creating that sense of fellowship (as in finding your 'soul-mate'). As far as fellowshipping with deity, that, I think takes place in a person's spirit, a slightly different thing; that is where we can find communion or union with God. But that's another thread, maybe. ;)
 

Deb Kinnard

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
311
Location
Casa Chaos
Website
www.debkinnard.com
For these purposes (and these only), you might draw a comparison between the brain and the lungs. The brain is the seat (physical) of the soul (invisible). The lungs are the seat of respiration. Now--the lungs don't themselves produce the complex chemical/mechanical process called respiration, any more than the brain produces a soul. But one is inherently a basis for the other.

I believe we 1) are a soul that 2) lives in a body. The soul is that part of the human being that survives the death of the body--the essence of who we are when all the fliss is stripped away. One is a vehicle for the other. These relationships don't make the science any less beautiful to me. Or the beauty of the God-breathed soul any less true.

Now--I'm not the spiritual heavy-thinker some of my brothers and sisters are. This is just the way I've got it figured out, with help from some folks smarter than I am.
 

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
526
Reaction score
89
Location
So Oregon Coast looking at the ocean
Website
capearagopress.com
It seems pretty simple to me.

The brain is physical; the soul is spiritual. As Deb said, we're spiritual beings temporarily inhabiting a physical body. The body provides us with the ability to interact in the physical world and each other. Will we ever see a soul? Not until we leave this world and exist in the spiritual realm.
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
It seems pretty simple to me.

The brain is physical; the soul is spiritual. As Deb said, we're spiritual beings temporarily inhabiting a physical body. The body provides us with the ability to interact in the physical world and each other. Will we ever see a soul? Not until we leave this world and exist in the spiritual realm.

But if someone told you to isolate the spiritual aspect of your self, where would you point?
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
Toward Christ.

May seem a trite response to some, but it's what I have.

Don't make me bust out a police doll and ask, "where did the bad man touch you?"

Seriously. I will.
 

Gehanna

Introvert
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,139
Reaction score
429
Hello Bartholomew,

The Soul is a vital part of Christian doctrine, so I find myself wondering how Christians combine a working knowledge of the human brain with a belief in the soul.

I suggest you continue your study of the mind to include topics such as human emotion and subconsciousness. There remains too much of a gap between what you have learned and what you may be capable of comprehending related to the Soul.

Sincerely,
Gehanna
 

Sean D. Schaffer

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
1,433
I can't help but mix my recent study of the human brain with the idea of Soul. The Soul is a vital part of Christian doctrine, so I find myself wondering how Christians combine a working knowledge of the human brain with a belief in the soul.

Since, scientifically, where know what part of the brain controls personality, what room is left for Soul? Where do you believe the Soul actually resides? What do you opine a soul is made from? As our understanding of the human body improves, do you believe we'll actually find the soul?

Or do you believe that the Soul is a composite, the result of various chemicals and the activities of certain neurons? Would a belief such as this interfere with Christian doctrine?

-B


I am almost afraid of posting here, but for some reason I feel the need to give my best answer to this question. :eek: Please forgive if this is deemed inappropriate somehow. I do not intend it as such.


In the book of Genesis, the soul is directly connected to breathing. In fact, according to my old KJV that I gave to a friend a few months back, the words 'Breath of life' in the text had a cross next to them, and in the corresponding margin notes I found the following:

Heb. Soul

From what little understanding I have of the Bible, the soul would be the ability to breathe. Once we lose that ability, we lose the breath of life and thus our soul leaves our body...and we die.

This can be confirmed, I think, by the account of Adam's creation. The Bible says that "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." It was the breath, from what I understand, that made Adam a living being or a soul. In fact, according to the original notes taken by the 1611 translators, animals that breathed also had souls because they possessed the breath of life.

So my guess is, based upon the Bible, that Christian belief in the soul would not change due to better understanding of the brain. Considering how the Bible defines the soul, there should be little, if any, conflict.
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
I am almost afraid of posting here, but for some reason I feel the need to give my best answer to this question. :eek: Please forgive if this is deemed inappropriate somehow. I do not intend it as such.


In the book of Genesis, the soul is directly connected to breathing. In fact, according to my old KJV that I gave to a friend a few months back, the words 'Breath of life' in the text had a cross next to them, and in the corresponding margin notes I found the following:

Heb. Soul

From what little understanding I have of the Bible, the soul would be the ability to breathe. Once we lose that ability, we lose the breath of life and thus our soul leaves our body...and we die.

This can be confirmed, I think, by the account of Adam's creation. The Bible says that "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." It was the breath, from what I understand, that made Adam a living being or a soul. In fact, according to the original notes taken by the 1611 translators, animals that breathed also had souls because they possessed the breath of life.

So my guess is, based upon the Bible, that Christian belief in the soul would not change due to better understanding of the brain. Considering how the Bible defines the soul, there should be little, if any, conflict.

VERY interesting take on it. I've rarely seen this viewpoint, as it seems many people believe the brain is the soul's house.

What do you think of breathing machines that keep people alive? Does this somehow endanger the soul, in your opinion, when a man depends on a machine for his breath?

I doubt anyone could perceive your post as inappropriate, by the way. I certainly don't agree, as I don't believe in a soul -- but if I did believe in one, that it would be tied with breathing makes as much sense as any other idea I've heard.
 

Sean D. Schaffer

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
1,433
VERY interesting take on it. I've rarely seen this viewpoint, as it seems many people believe the brain is the soul's house.

What do you think of breathing machines that keep people alive? Does this somehow endanger the soul, in your opinion, when a man depends on a machine for his breath?

I don't see a problem at all with breathing machines. If a person's lungs are filled with the proper stuff to keep that person alive, then the machine is obviously a benefit. My point had less to do with a person's ability to pull in air, (and I admit, my post was very much unclear on this; my bad) and more to do with the breath itself. When the breath leaves the body permanently, of course the body dies.

As far as what the soul consists of aside from this, I would not be of much help, I'm afraid. Also, I'm pretty well exhausted tonight, so my mind is not up to par like it should be. :eek:

I doubt anyone could perceive your post as inappropriate, by the way. I certainly don't agree, as I don't believe in a soul -- but if I did believe in one, that it would be tied with breathing makes as much sense as any other idea I've heard.
The post could be deemed inappropriate, because of some posts I made recently on my blog. :( But if the mods approve of my posts, then I guess everything will be okay.
 

AMCrenshaw

...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
4,671
Reaction score
620
Website
dfnovellas.wordpress.com
The implications of Sean's conception of the soul interest me most. For example, air/wind/spiritus is outside of us and comes in. And no matter where we go, on Earth at least, it is always available, always with us. Even if we aren't aware of it...

AMC
 

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
Sean, your thoughtful contributions are welcome here, regardless of whether or not anyone agrees with them 100%. Especially on a topic like the soul, there is much mystery to explore.

I'm interested in the word study concerning "soul" in the Bible; thanks so much for that offering. The Hebrew is such poetic language, I'm wondering if the soul's connection to "breath" is simply a poetic way of saying it is "life" (eg. in the Psalms, where David praises God for giving him breath each morning), or if it's a literal connection to breath--or maybe both?

BTW, if anyone's interested, here's some more on the word study from www.bible.org (I'm using your Genesis passage, Sean):

2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,* and the man became a living being. ** (nephesh, of nefesh)

* tn The Hebrew word נְשָׁמָה (nÿshamah, “breath”) is used for God and for the life imparted to humans, not animals (see T. C. Mitchell, “The Old Testament Usage of Nÿshama,” VT 11 [1961]: 177-87). Its usage in the Bible conveys more than a breathing living organism (נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה, nefesh khayyah). Whatever is given this breath of life becomes animated with the life from God, has spiritual understanding (Job 32:8), and has a functioning conscience (Prov 20:27).

sn Human life is described here as consisting of a body (made from soil from the ground) and breath (given by God). Both animals and humans are called “a living being” (נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה) but humankind became that in a different and more significant way.

** tn The Hebrew term נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh, “being”) is often translated “soul,” but the word usually refers to the whole person. The phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה (nefesh khayyah, “living being”) is used of both animals and human beings (see 1:20, 24, 30; 2:19).
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
Christians don't believe animals have souls, then? o_O
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,500
Location
West Michigan
Christians don't believe animals have souls, then? o_O
It's difficult to say what individual Christians believe. As with any group, it varies. However, traditional Christian doctrine teaches that humanity is unique among all Creation in having a soul.
 

Gehanna

Introvert
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,139
Reaction score
429
Bartholomew wrote:
...it seems many people believe the brain is the soul's house.

I think the brain is housed by the soul.

Sincerely,
Gehanna
 

oscuridad

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
Messages
378
Reaction score
52
I'm very curious about this. Where does cartesian dualism come into it - are matter and soul separate, as Descartes says, or not? Is 'soul' the same as 'life force' or is it something else altogether, or is that a part. Sorry to gate crash - tell me to butt out if you think my questions inappropriate.

The Greeks believed the brain was an organ to cool the blood...
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
I'm very curious about this. Where does cartesian dualism come into it - are matter and soul separate, as Descartes says, or not? Is 'soul' the same as 'life force' or is it something else altogether, or is that a part. Sorry to gate crash - tell me to butt out if you think my questions inappropriate.

The Greeks believed the brain was an organ to cool the blood...

Silly Greeks.
 

Jenny

Who should be writing ...
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
341
Location
Australia
But if someone told you to isolate the spiritual aspect of your self, where would you point?

Sean's idea of breath is intriguing, but to answer your literal question, I'd hold out my hands palm up and say, "here".

We influence the world with our hands. We reach out with them, create with them, help, soothe, destroy with them. Why can't we hold our soul in our hands and share it with others? It is our true expression of self.

That said, I believe the soul can't be pinpointed to a particular part of the body. It's spiritual, not physical or mental. I can't define it, but I don't mind that part of me is a bit mysterious :)

And as Oscuridad has mentioned, the Cartesian dualism is so deeply part of my social thinking that I find it hard to wriggle out of its straightjacket. Do we really have to separate soul from physical? which is, I guess, partly what your original question was struggling with.
 

Revelationz

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
83
Reaction score
8
Location
Waycross, GA
Website
www.myspace.com
Alright, you guys wanna go in a reaaaaaaally wierd direction here? Well, read on :)

Well, what comprises the body? Well, skin. That's obvious to us. Then, there's bone underneath. That hardness under the skin HAS to be something. Eyes, and the ears.... not quite bone, not quite as smushy as the tongue. We'll call it cartilage.

Then, our ancestors decided to dissect to see what else could be observed. What lied beneath the skin? More layers of skin. And organs! Organs that make our bodies function. It seemed to be an organ system. And so, we're organisms.

But, the curiosity, as to what made us up, did not end there. We get sick. Why do we get sick? Why do organs fail? Why do sicknesses seem to spread? Then, thanks to the invention of the microscope, we learn that it's germs! Something completely hidden from us for thousands of years. Who thought something so small that you couldn't see would cause something like the Black Plague. But, there's also good germs. A whole world hidden from us, yet so important and necessary to understand.

But, the curiosity did not end there. Oh no. Not for Humans. The scientific inquery only hightened in intensity. There were genes to be discovered, as well as the intricate combination of polypetides and ribosomes that work together to form DNA. But, what composes all of this? Something smaller. Something so small, you can never see it with the Human eye. Something smaller than the shortest wavelength of visible light. The atom.

And thus science entered the realm of the mysterious and outright wierd. Where science could prove through evidence one thing or another, now it has taken a turn of the utmost faith. You have the atom. Then, you have Einstein, who describes the power of the supposed atom with Energy=Mass*The Speed of Light ^2 (which has just recently been proven to be consistently true for all matter and energy). More bazaar is his Theory of Special Relativity, which goes beyond Newton by daring to say WHAT gravity is. According to Einstein (and most astrophysicists today) the universe is a fabric of interwoven energy comprised of the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time. When matter or energy is present in our space-time it warps thus creating gravity. In other words, think of our universe as a trampoline, and a planet, or any body of mass or energy, as a bowling ball. When you put the bowling ball in the trampoline, it warps, pulling everything within it toward the center.

Pretty wierd stuff, eh? Well, scientists aren't done yet. Next comes Quantum Mechanics. Where Relativity describes the gravitational effects of macroscopic objects such as planets, suns, or even people, QM describes the actions of the atomic world, such as electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. Where gravity seems to be rather orderly, that God "doesn't play dice with the universe", the QM world is very chaotic. Want to find an atom? Well, you can't pinpoint it exactly at any moment. You only have a proability of where it may be at any given time. Want to find an electron? Same deal. In the atomic world, you never know for sure what is ever going to happen. What's worse, when you apply the theories and concepts of the atomic world to the real world, you get non-sensical answers, as if the atomic world isn't even part of our reality. It is as if Relativity and QM describe two different realities. Though they do not work together at all, they describe the same reality, just in different terms.

Also, through the study of QM, our scientists have come to conclude that certain odd things must be true because the math and evidence from QM experiments leads us to believe they must be true! These odd new theories include the ideas of other realities existing alongside our own, other alternate timelines, and that our "fabric of reality" exists inside a larger universe, or bulk as it is technically refered to, where there' smore dimensions of time and space. Think of it- you find some way to leave our universe and enter the bulk. There you can travel in other directions that you normally can move in, and there is no causality- no flow of time as we know it. Can't imagine such a thing? Well, dont worry. No one can. It's like imagining a new color that does not exist. It can't be comprehended by the Human mind.

So, what am I getting at here? What does all this talk of science leads to? There isn't very much that we do understand about the true nature of reality. Questions begat answers, which create more questions. No matter how much we learn, there's more to learn. It almost seems as though the universe is infinite. Even it's smallest constituents seem to be infinitely complex, assuming there is a smallest constituent.

What is the soul, you ask? What is a new dimension of space and time? What is a fabric of space-time? What is a reality outside our own? How do you make sense of such?

A complex universe is one that I envision a being as great as God creating. You can't crack open a head and poof! there's the soul. You can't ask "why" and get a definite, absolute answer that does not lead to more questions. Not even the greatest of minds put together can answer definitively the simplest questions of life without there being another "why".

What is a soul? Show me another dimension of space or time first. Then, together, we may be able to begin to answer that very question.
 

philo

Here's a scientific experiment for the daring who need an answer.
1. Kill yourself. (Or have someone do the job for you.)
2. Allow the body to completely decompose, returning to dust.
3. What's left is the soul.

As a point of reference, there is a measured difference in the weight of a person immediately before and then immediately after death--it's less after death. Something that weighs more than the breath in the lungs leaves the body.
 

Robert Toy

FOB and Slayer of windmills
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
6,766
Reaction score
994
Location
La Mancha
Christians don't believe animals have souls, then? o_O
IMHO the key difference is conscience and the ability of abstract thought, i.e. a “soul”. Physically an electrical and chemical reaction in the brain.
 

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
20,321
Reaction score
3,513
Location
Transcending Canines
VERY interesting take on it. I've rarely seen this viewpoint, as it seems many people believe the brain is the soul's house.
I suspect that's a recent (in historical terms) belief that has come about since the brain was discovered to be the "house" of the mind, and so it is perhaps currently believed that the mind connects the brain and the soul, thus the soul (while one's body is alive) is in the brain.
What do you think of breathing machines that keep people alive? Does this somehow endanger the soul, in your opinion, when a man depends on a machine for his breath?

I doubt anyone could perceive your post as inappropriate, by the way. I certainly don't agree, as I don't believe in a soul -- but if I did believe in one, that it would be tied with breathing makes as much sense as any other idea I've heard.
Actually, "breath" and "spirit" appear to be quite closely tied in this context (and I'm presuming spirit is also a concept very similar to soul), from the meanings of these words back when the King James Version was translated. The word respire comes from spirit (as well as the more abstract concepts inspire and aspire), and hundreds of years ago spirit meant something close to both "life force" and to (literal) breathing. People (and animals,though they're another discussion) that are breathing are always alive, but people who aren't breathing (for several minutes, thus discounting someone who holds their breath for a short time) are dead. From such an observation it's very easy to tie breathing to some unseen "life force" called spirit. And since the lungs are organs clearly tied to breathing, it would be reasonable to say the spirit resides in the lungs.

But as far as breathing machines, they are used in place of (or as an aid to) chest muscles that usually cause the lungs to inhale and exhale but have failed or are weakened. I'd say this is just a physiological problem that a breathing machine helps with, and has no more connection to the soul or spirit than any other medical device.

An interesting Bible reading is Chapter 2 of the book of James (I'm not much of a Bible reader, but I did find a few books mentioned in some pamphlet, so I had to research it - so don't think I'm so smart about the Bible, this post comes close to "exhausting," pun intended, my Biblical knowledge). The gist of the chapter is "Faith without works is dead"* but the last verse gives a comparison with the body and the spirit:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26. KJV)

The body has it's current meaning of our physical bodies, but as I understand it spirit can mean either (or perhaps both!) literal breath (if you don't "have breath," that is you're not breathing, you're dead) or some metaphysical life force (such as the soul that leaves the body at death).

I know I've read about these meanings somewhere. Most of my googling just gives the verses from King James, but I did find this, with a grand total of three words of commentary after James 2:26:
http://kjt.biblecommenter.com/james/2.htm
spirit: or, breath
* These exact words are used several times in the AA "Big Book" without attribution, and I had no idea where they came from until I found them in the Bible.
 

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
Interesting post, revelationz. I love all that mind-boggling stuff (even when it makes my eyes glaze over).

Ben, great passage (great book). In that verse (2:26), the word for spirit apparently is the Greek word "pneuma" which has multiple meanings (sometimes the Holy Spirit, sometimes breath, sometimes our own soul)--but in this passage, like you say, it refers to the 'life' or animation of a living person. Just like a body without a soul is no longer (really) that person, but simply a carcass, so 'belief' or faith without evidences of that animating belief is also empty, dead, useless (see verse 20 for another reference to empty faith). The implication here is that because faith IS animating, as the soul is to the body, faith without works, while it may have an appearance of assenting belief (see v.19 - "even the devils believe and tremble"), is likely not true faith in the first place.
 

small axe

memento mori
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
1,940
Reaction score
261
Here's a scientific experiment for the daring who need an answer.
1. Kill yourself. (Or have someone do the job for you.)
2. Allow the body to completely decompose, returning to dust.
3. What's left is the soul.

A radio is playing music or communicating information.

1) Smash the radio into dust. Is the music killed? No ... it is simply no longer received by the dust of the radio. Weigh the radio dust ... it doesn't matter whether it weighs the same, or less.

2) Destroy the reciever, destroy the transmitter ... the radio wave continues through space. The music exists forever in certain moments of Time. In other moments in time, the signal seems (to us) to degrade into non-music ... but this may be a mere trick of our perceptions. It is unclear whether a signal, once organized, can become unorganized on a universal level (that is, does entropy act across all Space/Time, or only seem to, to us from our limited perspective) ...

The brain may not house the soul if the soul needs no house, just as the raindrop can fall to become a river, running to the sea, rising to become a raindrop again. It's not the SAME raindrop ... but that's no worse than saying music is more than one note repeated without variety.

Science can describe the brain, map the brain, break the brain so the soul goes elsewhere, mend the brain so the mind works differently ... none of it need mean there is an unbreakable dependence on brain for soul or soul for brain.

Science cannot really threaten or detract from the things of the Spirit, I think. Some may feel a thing explained is a mystery killed, but I think the mysteries increase exponentially. If you tell me the magician has a rabbit up his sleeve ... you still must next explain the miracle of rabbits and sleeves.

Every simple "answer" breeds a more complex question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.