How do I get readers to realize my setting isn't Medieval Europe?

AnneMarble · Oct 27, 2008

I write fantasy novels with what I call a Medievalish setting. Sure, they have castles, but it's definitely not the Medeival Europe we know. First, there's magic, so of course that makes things different.

Also, I have openly gay mages who are accepted for what they are, gay marriages, and even kings who sleep with gay mages now and then. I haven't gotten into how they deal with inheritance issues, but trust me, this world is going to have some way around it (foster children, surrogates, whatever).

When I explained the plot of my latest story in a chat room, someone kept coming up with objections to my current plot. There were some good points for someone unfamiliar with the world. For example, how would they determine who inherited property? And wouldn't the church be opposed? (There is no church as we know it -- instead, they have their own deities, and those deities do approve.)

When I start the story, I don't want to end up in an infodump where I explain how I deal with all these objections. How do I make people realize they are in a new world without expecting someone to, say, burn all the gay characters at the stake? How do I help them come along for the ride?

For eaxmple, my current story starts with a lord arranging for his son to meet potential husbands and wives. Do I really have to find some way to make it clear this is accepted and even common in this setting? I don't want to resort to "As you know, Lord Highwater arranged for his son to marry a handsome man last year."

mrockwell · Oct 27, 2008

I don't think you need to explain it at all, except as it's revealed through the narrative.

Have you read Elizabeth Bear's Dust? She handles similar issues deftly in her book, but the setting is SF.

-- Marcy

MattW · Oct 27, 2008

Not having read it, I think you did it properly by starting off on the wrong foot.

If the reader comes in and is unbalanced by conventions they don't understand, it is a big honking sign that they aren't in Kansas anymore.

sunandshadow · Oct 27, 2008

Personally since you have mages I'd definitely include magical male pregnancy, because a lot of parents would object to arranging a match for their child if the match would not result in grandchildren who are actually genetically related to them. Unless by surrogacy you meant a female servant or professional surrogate would be carrying the child of the two men, not providing the egg. But if arranging a male-male marriage requires one of the men to be willing to carry children, that would be an interesting point of conflict.

Since the lord is arranging for his son to meet potential husbands and wives, I guess the sone is known to be bi? Because if he was known to have a preference either way, why waste effort inviting both?

If any of the main characters or relationships is gay, you're not going to pull in the kind of reader who thinks gays should be burned at the stake no matter what. If none of the main characters or relationships is gay why develop it so much, background it and save the details for a sequel where there is a gay main relationship.

Also, don't forget that the final book's cover, back cover copy, etc. will probably communicate clearly that the setting is a fantasy world.

Danthia · Oct 27, 2008

I've run into this myself. What I do is break the "default medieval" setting in the first few pages, and keep reinforcing that in the first chapter when reader expectations and assumptions are made. So the more non-Medieval details and situations you can have the better. Also try to avoid things that are typically medieval in nature right off the bat.

MagicMan · Oct 27, 2008

The first line sets the stage. It has to be well thought out in fantasy. It should not tell but show.

Example:

James gazed from his castle's turret over the fields, saved from the drought by a few ancient words uttered by his loving partner.

This line shows:
James is important (his castle) and the MC
His loving partner (he is gay) and another important character
Ancient words (magic, not earth)
Castle turret (midievil times)

The second line seals it.

"I must commend thy efforts, for I know how it drains you, George. We must soon attend to the adoption, for these lands must have an heir."

Smiles
Bob

This was not well thought out, just tossed in to spark the notion.

Liosse de Velishaf · Oct 27, 2008

sunandshadow said:
Personally since you have mages I'd definitely include magical male pregnancy, because a lot of parents would object to arranging a match for their child if the match would not result in grandchildren who are actually genetically related to them. Unless by surrogacy you meant a female servant or professional surrogate would be carrying the child of the two men, not providing the egg. But if arranging a male-male marriage requires one of the men to be willing to carry children, that would be an interesting point of conflict.

Since the lord is arranging for his son to meet potential husbands and wives, I guess the sone is known to be bi? Because if he was known to have a preference either way, why waste effort inviting both?

If any of the main characters or relationships is gay, you're not going to pull in the kind of reader who thinks gays should be burned at the stake no matter what. If none of the main characters or relationships is gay why develop it so much, background it and save the details for a sequel where there is a gay main relationship.

Also, don't forget that the final book's cover, back cover copy, etc. will probably communicate clearly that the setting is a fantasy world.

From what she said, I don't think that's the direction the story is going. Remember, this is a different culture on a different world. There's no reason whatsoever that people have to react as they do in our cultures on earth. Of course, one big way to gain acceptance is to "show" why the culture is different. If it's exactly like medieval europe except that everyone is bi, then there may be a problem.

MattW · Oct 27, 2008

I was going to rec Left Hand of Darkness, then I realized it wasn't the book I was remembering.

How many SF books about hermaphrodites have I read?!?!?

Dale Emery · Oct 27, 2008

I would think that early references to the deities, to open homosexuality, or to any other feature that differs significantly from Medieval Europe would be enough of a clue that this isn't Europe.

In the opening scene of Lois McMaster Bujold's wonderful The Curse of Chalion, the MC stumbles upon a fresh corpse, and finds clear signs that the person died as a result of wielding "death magic" to try to compel the gods. That's enough to let us know that the setting, while clearly medieval, is not Europe, and we learn it by page six.

Dale

Fenika · Oct 27, 2008

On a sidenote, how do you get around the whole 'biological drive' of raising your own (superior?) blood? Is there any anthropological basis for your society or, as someone suggested, is one male seeding another woman and taking the child?

One good way to show without AYKB-ing, is to find a point of conflict, then pull it into a convo or a thought. Tension builds, and bare (non-dumpy) facts can be thrown around wildly to pull the reader 'out of Kansas' so to speak.

AnneMarble · Oct 27, 2008

MattW said:
Not having read it, I think you did it properly by starting off on the wrong foot.

If the reader comes in and is unbalanced by conventions they don't understand, it is a big honking sign that they aren't in Kansas anymore.

That's true. If a lord is setting his son up with the prince, that's a sign that we're not in Kansas anymore -- let alone Canterbury.

sunandshadow said:
Personally since you have mages I'd definitely include magical male pregnancy, because a lot of parents would object to arranging a match for their child if the match would not result in grandchildren who are actually genetically related to them. Unless by surrogacy you meant a female servant or professional surrogate would be carrying the child of the two men, not providing the egg. But if arranging a male-male marriage requires one of the men to be willing to carry children, that would be an interesting point of conflict.

Some of the people who have read my chapters have told me I'm not allowed to have pregnant mages.

It probably wouldn't work out well as I'm writing it as a romantic fantasy, and most of the target audience would probably say "Ick." I guess I could always try to work out a spell that turns sperm into eggs or something...

sunandshadow said:
Since the lord is arranging for his son to meet potential husbands and wives, I guess the sone is known to be bi? Because if he was known to have a preference either way, why waste effort inviting both?

The MC is bi, although mainly gay. The invitees were more likely to be male, but there were some women there.

sunandshadow said:
If any of the main characters or relationships is gay, you're not going to pull in the kind of reader who thinks gays should be burned at the stake no matter what. If none of the main characters or relationships is gay why develop it so much, background it and save the details for a sequel where there is a gay main relationship.

Also, don't forget that the final book's cover, back cover copy, etc. will probably communicate clearly that the setting is a fantasy world.

I'm hoping the cover copy will very clearly mention gay. That way, the peple who don't want to read it will be warned.

I'm not really worried about people who want to burn gays at the stake, but rather people who expect that would happen in any setting with castles and kings, because that sort of thing happened when we were at that period of history.

Danthia said:
I've run into this myself. What I do is break the "default medieval" setting in the first few pages, and keep reinforcing that in the first chapter when reader expectations and assumptions are made. So the more non-Medieval details and situations you can have the better. Also try to avoid things that are typically medieval in nature right off the bat.

That's a good idea.

I also have the hero's mother as a healer mage with very advanced medical skills, and an attitude similar to Doc from Gunsmoke (maybe closer to House when she's in a bad mood). She should be fun to write.

In another story in the same setting, I had an alternating POV character who came from a neighboring kingdom that had differing views. That turned out to be very helpful. However, I can't really do that this time as I'm trying to stick to just the mage's POV (or maybe the mage and the prince).

AnneMarble · Oct 27, 2008

Liosse de Velishaf said:
From what she said, I don't think that's the direction the story is going. Remember, this is a different culture on a different world. There's no reason whatsoever that people have to react as they do in our cultures on earth. Of course, one big way to gain acceptance is to "show" why the culture is different. If it's exactly like medieval europe except that everyone is bi, then there may be a problem.

The mages are predominantly gay or bi because of the effect magic has on them. (The gods can be both male and female, and the power comes from them, so that has its effect on them.) Also, their powers are tied into their sexuality. The culture as a whole (in this nation at least) accepts homosexuality because of the influence of mages. So it's OK to have a gay lord, and OK if he wants the property to go to a foster child or other heir. I might develop some system where areas with lower population make gay men get someone pregnant before letting them off the hook. (Doesn't Diane Duane have a system like that in a fantasy series?)

MattW said:
I was going to rec Left Hand of Darkness, then I realized it wasn't the book I was remembering.

How many SF books about hermaphrodites have I read?!?!?

That's a good question. There are a lot of them, aren't there?... How about Bel Thorne in the Vorkosigan books? LMB does play with gender, doesn't she? "

Dale Emery said:
I would think that early references to the deities, to open homosexuality, or to any other feature that differs significantly from Medieval Europe would be enough of a clue that this isn't Europe.

True. Actual pages are different than trying to explain a book in a writing chat. If you try to explain a book in a writing chat, there will always be people who ask "But what about?..." Which is good because they make you think about your worldbuilding. But sometimes, we writers have to accept that if someone says they are writing about a world where everyone is a striped hermaphrodite, we have worked out the worldbuilding.

Bahamutchild said:
On a sidenote, how do you get around the whole 'biological drive' of raising your own (superior?) blood? Is there any anthropological basis for your society or, as someone suggested, is one male seeding another woman and taking the child?

One good way to show without AYKB-ing, is to find a point of conflict, then pull it into a convo or a thought. Tension builds, and bare (non-dumpy) facts can be thrown around wildly to pull the reader 'out of Kansas' so to speak.

And I have a character who was raised in this kingdom and another one (with opposing views about gays), so she will be a good starting off point for tension, conflict, debate, etc.

sunandshadow · Oct 27, 2008

AnneMarble said:
Some of the people who have read my chapters have told me I'm not allowed to have pregnant mages. It probably wouldn't work out well as I'm writing it as a romantic fantasy, and most of the target audience would probably say "Ick." I guess I could always try to work out a spell that turns sperm into eggs or something...

If it's a gay romance, people reading gay romance are used to seeing mpreg. Some like me are big fans of mpreg, some aren't, but it's ridiculous for people to tell you you're not allowed to do it. Tell them I am esmacking them for discouraging people from writing books I would love to read.

tehuti88 · Oct 27, 2008

Perhaps hope that the people in the chatroom don't represent the majority of fantasy readers out there...? I don't assume every fantasy I read is set in a reality that must take after some kind of Earth reality. I read enough of the story to figure out on my own whether it's based on something or is completely its own thing. "Oh...you mean these two men are...? Well that's interesting." *reads on to find out if this is the norm in this world*

I'd like to hope more people would do the same, but maybe I'm just naive.

I wouldn't see a need to do some sort of infodump or explanation other than what's warranted in the text itself. I was going to suggest a disclaimer to say that this isn't set in a world directly based on medieval European morals, but you know what? You shouldn't have to do that either. It's a FANTASY story, meaning of course a lot is made up. I don't have to put disclaimers on my stuff saying it's not set in medieval Europe. I think the people in the chatroom were really assuming a bit too much. I'd just write the story the way it wants to be written and let it sort itself out.

But like I said...I'm pretty naive.

--Tehuti, who does NOT write medieval European-style fantasy and so has never had this particular problem

ETA: ...and who frequently writes gay fantasy/romance but has never once used mpreg and never plans to!

Though if it makes sense in someone else's world, that wouldn't put me off reading it.

AnneMarble · Oct 27, 2008

sunandshadow said:
If it's a gay romance, people reading gay romance are used to seeing mpreg. Some like me are big fans of mpreg, some aren't, but it's ridiculous for people to tell you you're not allowed to do it. Tell them I am esmacking them for discouraging people from writing books I would love to read.

I'm not sure how serious they were about it. Or maybe they had just had their eyeballs burned by one of those really bad Harry Potter mpreg stories.

Anyway, I don't see it working in my story. Although it would be cool to see it in other stories.

I've seen mpreg in fan fiction, but I haven't seen it in m/m fiction published in the romance field yet (such as Changeling Press, Samhain, etc.). Does anyone know if mpreg is allowed there? m/m itself is still new there, so mpreg probably wouldn't work with most readers.

tehuti88 said:
Perhaps hope that the people in the chatroom don't represent the majority of fantasy readers out there...? I don't assume every fantasy I read is set in a reality that must take after some kind of Earth reality. I read enough of the story to figure out on my own whether it's based on something or is completely its own thing. "Oh...you mean these two men are...? Well that's interesting." *reads on to find out if this is the norm in this world*

It might just be that I was describing the story wrong in the chat. The chatter who asked the questions was new. Most of the other chatters were familiar with the setting, so they accepted whatever I said about my MC. The new chatter might not have realized I was talking about a fantasy novel, or might have thought it was a fantasy novel set in Medieval Europe.

tehuti88 said:
ETA: ...and who frequently writes gay fantasy/romance but has never once used mpreg and never plans to! Though if it makes sense in someone else's world, that wouldn't put me off reading it.

I don't think Moonstone would allow me to let him get pregnant. It would do terrible things to his figure!
:e2thud:

FennelGiraffe · Oct 27, 2008

You could use the uncle-nephew inheritance pattern. Your mage could adopt his sister's son.

As for your main question, I'm seconding (or thirding or fourthing) the advice to jump in with both feet and make it clear from the first paragraph that this isn't the Medieval a reader might think it is.

OremLK · Oct 27, 2008

Readers already come into an alternate world fantasy expecting it not to be medieval Europe, so you're fine there. As everyone else has said, just jump in and run with it.

That said, you ought to have reasons for the differences in society. As in, if open homosexuality is common in your society, why is this the case when it wasn't in historical societies of that technology level/culture? It sounds like you're already addressing this by tying it in with the magic, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

AnneMarble · Oct 27, 2008

OremLK said:
Readers already come into an alternate world fantasy expecting it not to be medieval Europe, so you're fine there. As everyone else has said, just jump in and run with it.

There are always the outliers -- for example, the guy who gave a fantasy novel a one-star rating because the Medieval males talked about love a lot, and this review knew real Medieval males didn't do that. :ROFL:

Riiight. Obviously his idea of Medieval males comes from the Deathstalker movies, not from primary sources. He's not allowed to read my book. I'm not writing for the outliers.

OremLK said:
That said, you ought to have reasons for the differences in society. As in, if open homosexuality is common in your society, why is this the case when it wasn't in historical societies of that technology level/culture? It sounds like you're already addressing this by tying it in with the magic, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I'll get back to you when I figure out that rest.

Actually I do have some ideas percolating, and cultural stuff should show through. I guess I have to live up to the panel our own Cathy Clamp (and others) participated in at RWA a couple of years ago -- Because I Said So Is Not Good Enough."

Ariella · Oct 27, 2008

As it turns out, even the real medieval world had a more nuanced attitude towards homosexuality than most people think it did. Check out Paul Halsall's online pages about LGBT history here:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-med.html

I think some people will always be disappointed that your world doesn't work the way they would have designed it to operate. (Actually, I think all fantasy writers think that way about each other's work all the time.

) As long as you make the ground rules for your civilization clear up front, the vast majority of readers should be able to follow along and enjoy the story anyway.

Toothpaste · Oct 27, 2008

Can't you just throw out a few fantastical place names, a 26 hour day, and unique gods? That alone will establish: "medieval like fantasy place". I think you are focusing too much on the response these people had to your gay characters, which as I understand it came not out of their reading your book, but from a quick explanation you offered. You probably weren't that clear, that's all. You won't get that response if you set the context of the world. It isn't about explaining why it is acceptable, but merely demonstrating that it is, while at the same time reminding the reader that this isn't Earth.

tehuti88 · Oct 28, 2008

FennelGiraffe said:
You could use the uncle-nephew inheritance pattern. Your mage could adopt his sister's son.

Matrilineal inheritance! Nice. This was how it was done among the Six Nations/Iroquoian groups. Missionaries assumed this was because the women were so promiscuous (according to them) that they could never be sure who the real father was, though of course the natives had their own established reasons. Children were born into their mother's clan, and men moved in with their wives' families. Etc. I haven't the brain cells to figure how this would work in the OP's story, but it's a thought.

AnneMarble · Oct 28, 2008

Toothpaste said:
Can't you just throw out a few fantastical place names, a 26 hour day, and unique gods? That alone will establish: "medieval like fantasy place". I think you are focusing too much on the response these people had to your gay characters, which as I understand it came not out of their reading your book, but from a quick explanation you offered. You probably weren't that clear, that's all.

And I was probably in chat at ten or eleven p.m., so what made sense to me made sense to no one else.
:ROFL:

Toothpaste said:
You won't get that response if you set the context of the world. It isn't about explaining why it is acceptable, but merely demonstrating that it is, while at the same time reminding the reader that this isn't Earth.

Heck, the MC's parents named him Moonstone, so we're either not on Earth or we're among New Age advocates in Sedona, Arizona.

When I talk about the story, I'm less likely to mention the names of the kingdoms, so much of the early context is gone.

Although from some critiques I got in Critters, I think there are people who are ready to pounce on anything because they think it might be an error or inconsistency. In an earlier story, I had a servant close the curtains because the doctor had told him that the sunlight would hurt the patient, and the critter thought this was an error on my part. But at various periods in the past, doctors thought sunlight could hurt patients. (Now we know it can both help and hurt.)

NightShayde · Oct 28, 2008

MattW said:
Not having read it, I think you did it properly by starting off on the wrong foot.

If the reader comes in and is unbalanced by conventions they don't understand, it is a big honking sign that they aren't in Kansas anymore.

I completely agree. One way you're going to show them that they are not in Medieval Europe is by bringing in a huge difference, like the acceptance of homosexual people.

Another way, although simple, would be to give your place a name. Show them, you're not in Europe, you're in ______.

Another way is to impact them from the beginning, make them want to read your story, and then explain things as you come to them. I don't know about you, but I personally hate a book that tells me about information I don't need to know untill 8 chapters later. Perhaps with the "what does the church say" thing, have your character tell at one point how their gods blessed a homosexual marriage. That would be my suggestion.

I hope I have helped give you some ideas. =3

-NightShayde

AnneMarble · Oct 28, 2008

tehuti88 said:
Matrilineal inheritance! Nice. This was how it was done among the Six Nations/Iroquoian groups. Missionaries assumed this was because the women were so promiscuous (according to them) that they could never be sure who the real father was, though of course the natives had their own established reasons. Children were born into their mother's clan, and men moved in with their wives' families. Etc. I haven't the brain cells to figure how this would work in the OP's story, but it's a thought.

One culture I studied in Cultural Anthropology encouraged kids to marry cousins related to one parent but not the other. I figured out which cousins I would be encouraged to marry and then said "Eww."

NightShayde said:
I completely agree. One way you're going to show them that they are not in Medieval Europe is by bringing in a huge difference, like the acceptance of homosexual people.

Yeah, that would do it.

NightShayde said:
Another way, although simple, would be to give your place a name. Show them, you're not in Europe, you're in ______.

Another way is to impact them from the beginning, make them want to read your story, and then explain things as you come to them. I don't know about you, but I personally hate a book that tells me about information I don't need to know untill 8 chapters later.

I avoid doing that because I hate those books, too.

However, I have to be careful giving people an early draft. I gave someone an early draft of Chapter One of a story set in the same place, and much of her response consisted of questions that I didn't know the answer to yet -- because I was still writing the story.

Others were things that might have seemed illogical or inconsisent but would make sense once I made them clear in revisions. (The setting was an ancient, long abandoned city that was turned into a prison for mages. Yet at the same time, there were also alleys and mess halls, and that didn't seem logical to her. So I made it more clear that the alleyes and mess halls were newer buildings put up for the prisoners because the ancient city, while nice and shiny, was dangerous.)

NightShayde said:
Perhaps with the "what does the church say" thing, have your character tell at one point how their gods blessed a homosexual marriage. That would be my suggestion.

I hope I have helped give you some ideas. =3

-NightShayde

Thanks

veinglory · Oct 28, 2008

It seems to me that if the book is branded and sold as a fantasy, and the major digressions from 'standard pre-gunpowder feudal setting' come up in the first chapter, you'll be good. I would see the different as bewteen your setting and standard sword and sandal settings, not medieval Europe per se. Most fantasy readers haven't (in my experience) the faintest idea what medieval Europe was like.

How do I get readers to realize my setting isn't Medieval Europe?

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